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Ultra Piping problem, HELP!
Comments
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constant circ.
Now this just means that the main circ is running all the time, right? It will just be pulling water through the boiler loop not throught the zones how does this help anything?
Also do you or anyone else here add a conditioner in the water?0 -
Constant circ
Now things get complicated. I don't understand all the particulars about a boiler loop, etc. Kal would know about that....0 -
the ultra..
the ultra does NOT have primary/secondary internally with a circulator like some of the other condensing boilers (eg Teledyne larrs), they depend on you setting it up with closely spaced t's like in fig 4, thus the circulator has to be setup like the dark one in fig 7 (pg15), the manual states that you have to pipe it like they say or the heat-exchanger might be damaged,
i have to know if you have one or two circulators and how they are piped and wired - to fully answer your question
i just know that if i had done it - i would have piped it like their diagram but wired differently
i would have had both circulators on a relay, triggered by either the boiler's call or by any stage 1
of 2 stage house thermostats
so that stage 1 pumps the water through the boiler and system and stage 2 calls for the boiler to
turn on the burner
with normal boilers we use 3 pumps ie a boiler loop, a system loop, and closely space tee injection loop
and the pump on the injection, runs with water temp and outdoor temp, sensors, and varies the speed of the
injection pump, it's like, the boiler loop is pot of hot water, and the system loop is a pot of colder water
and the injection system moves only fast enough to keep the required temperature in the system loop and slow
enough that the boiler's loop doesn't fall below 140 when the system is starting up since we don't want to condense
the flue gases on a cast iron system.
the reason for the closely spaced tees (6 or less pipe diameters) is so that the flow in one loop doesn't affect
the flow in another loop - we also make the injection 1 pipe diameter smaller, and the boiler loop attachment point 1ft higher
than the system loop attachment point, so that we don't get ghost flow, hot water is lighter and tends to rise,
so we put it i ft heigher, and inject downward
now with the ultra is all different, it can modulate it's flame, so it doesn't need vari-speed injection, and the boiler doesn't need cold water flue gas condensing protection, and if you pipe like they want you to, then you are protected against cold shock also, should a cold zone open into an already hot system, that why the manual is so adamant about piping it like they show you - hard cast metals, cant handle massive temp swings like alloys eg stainless, (though aluminum handles it better than iron) - so they require you to protect them with a specific piping setup, and to protect the heat exchanger from melting due to lack of water flow, (this reason at least, they admit to, in the manual
warning under fig4 ) 0 -
i am hopeing
that slant fin will use a stainless steel heat-ex, your name is good enough that the your unit doesn't have to be cheaper,
it should be rated for 100psi, for those larger multistage installs,
the primary loop should be inside, using one of those tiny grundfoss units, this way you dont have to worry about what beginners are going to do with it,
the electronics though should have sophisticated options for the advanced users, like external pump relays, etc, and "stage chaining" intelligence, so that you can parallel pipe together a bunch of them and you only wire the thermostat and external sensors to one of them, then chain together the rest with a special cable like a network and the units should talk amongst themselves and decide who does what0 -
but I have
5 zones in addition to the boiler circ. Having the boiler circ running constant isnt going to pull water through those zones, is it? Wouldn't that stress the boiler circ?
Also on page 12 of the manual 1st sentence " SYSTEM WATER PIPING METHODS "NOTICE" All piping methods shown in this manual use primary/secondary connection to the boiler loop."
now i'm confused
Mine is set up like figure 8 on page 15.0 -
Sounds like...
quite the product! I don't know if everyone equates aluminum with "cheaping out", any more than stainless steel guarantees better quality, though.0 -
Running Along Floyd
Ok Floyd,
I want to make sure I'm doing it right.
My system is at 152 Outside Target Temp, with 152 degree supply and about 144 return. It has brought the house up to 71 degrees and is holding steady at about 17 degrees outside. It is running at the target temp of 152.
Now the questions. You are certain, that if left running and it does not stop in the space heating mode, but just keeps chugging along at 152, it will be cheaper and more comfortable than the off/on/off other method in the long run? Did WM reps indicate that is acceptable and efficient or is it something you concluded from experience and knowledge? Reynz
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i assume
that you have a circulator per zone like in fig8/pg15, then running the boiler's circ does not induce flow in the zones - whether they are open/on or off, since the closely spaced tees of the primary injection, keeps the flows isolated, the boiler's pump is just injecting heat into secondary, it like two pots or water, you wont stress the boilers pump and you wont thermal shock the boiler dont know about parameter 303 since the on-line controls manual says not to touch the 3 parameter at all - i have no other info on it
you can get the benefit of 2 stage, if any first stage in the house opens and runs the pumps in all the zones to even out the temps (though - this is a whole different knowledge base), if the boilers is also running then you can get residual heat out of the heat exchanger though I doubt if you will get too much from a low mass heat-ex, but if you have a domestic hot water setup, the min set point for it may be all you need to just keep the house warm so it may pay to run it with the zone pumps0 -
aluminum
has the advantage of being light, low mass (fast to heat up), and great heat transfer, it would seem ideal, but it expands and contracts to much, i cant tell you how many electrical fires have started from the copper and aluminum wire splices, the heat exchanger to external piping interface would have to be real elastic across the full pressure and temperature range, and repeatably so, for 30 years, Weil-Mclain ran it for 15 years, but how much did they abuse it during that time, id love to see the reports on the tests that failed
i think ULTRA users, that are running multi-zone, at or above 160, and are not piped primary/secondary, are in for a rude awakening, by way of a leak in the interface piping - Id love to be wrong on this, but i doubt it, Id rather swallow my opinion, than see all those people suffer, I can only hope that beginners, just complied with the manual, and if old timers did it their way, well, they just have themselves to blame
there is also the ph issue which is critical with aluminum, and, heaven help you if they use the wrong anti-freeze in a snow melt system
if you use aluminum, then you have to make it a protected pre-packaged heat source with the primary inside, or, you dont sell it to anyone you havent certified, certification could simply be a video+book, with an online-test on your web-site, then at least you have a fighting chance ., nah ., certification is marketing death, better protect it inside,
I am waiting for the likes of taco and Grundfos, to make small variable speed, wet rotor circulators, with an electronic 3phase motor, instead of split-phase with capacitor or blushless DC, like computer fans, I want to see the internal pump move 15gpm on 20watts or less, the technology is here now, it doesnt have to be anymore expensive, they are just lazy
Last but not least, be the first with a 5yr warranty on the electronics, someone I me at ISH was giving 3yrs, simply not enough, since the parts are no avail locally, and the wait time to repair will be more than 24hrs!!! put in surge protection etc
And provide an overnight component exchange like the color printer people do,
They overnight you a new one, and you return the old one, in the new packaging prepaid, and if the customer broke it, then they pay for it, if the component they sent back is good, then they eat the shipping. This way the most it cost to test for a bad board by swap is the shipping cost.
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you are doing it right
if you have it maintaining a steady state, remember - the target market for this machine was radiant heat - where a STEADY slab temp (usually 85) is key - with the key being STEADY - so if you got it going steady, then you are getting it as efficient as you can, for your temp application, IMHO - read dan holohan's "how come" - remember the ultra modulates the flame - and at this point, the aluminum heat-ex is perfect, the flame is practically going right through it into the water!!!
in fact if you always run it like this after a full cold startup, and you had thermostatic valves on all your radiation, and a differential pressure bypass on the supply header, to balance the flow, through always on zones, then you could get away without primary/secondary, and run the whole show from the boiler pump!!!
sorry floyd - had to stick my 2 cents in - but you have convinced me that i dont have to spend the big bucks on a "viessmann" - i wonder if WM is watching this thread like slant finn is..
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One minor issue
Thanks for the information Kal. From a layman's point of view, I only see one problem with the Modulation aspect of the boiler. (And when I say layman, that means I really don't know a lot) I wish it would modulate down as well as up. It is very difficult to get it to constantly run, and when I say constant, I mean literally all the time. I'll tell you what I mean.
I believe I finally have the proper setting, 154 target temp, and somewhere around 144 return (don't hold to me to that exact target temp). HOWEVER...... However.... When the boiler reaches or even slightly overruns the target temperature, it turns off, and goes into the "Burner off because temperature setting has been reached", mode and I believe that is the target temp set and not room temp reached. The best it appears one can do, is cycle through on and off modes at almost the right constant temp. Currently, my boiler has turned off, with the target temp reached of 154 degrees. The water, although still circulating through the system with the circulator, has cooled to 134 degrees, before the heat went back on. Once a call for heat occurs again, it will modulate up to 154 and run for a while time to take house heat back to 70.2 degrees. (I think I got a handle on this, maybe I don't). The minor on/off/on causes my home temp to fluctuate from 69.6 to 71.2, which I suppose is not so bad. I will tell you, that before I went to the 154 target temp mode, just last week, I was seeing fluctuations from 69.6 to over 74! That is because on a run to heat the house, the water heated up to over 190 degrees, and I suppose the CI baseboard rads took a little time to heat up fully. So, I have learned a lot from Floyd and you. I have also noted one other thing, it appears that once the CI baseboard rads fully heat, to the 154 range, my house feels a lot warmer, and more consistent. It has solved a couple of minors concerns of mine, primarily constant temp. Considering all that has been said, I am very satisfied with my Ultra. I've noticed almost a 25% reduction in my gas bill, the first month, and I hope with this new steady temp idea, I can reduce it further.
My wife says I'm obsessed with the boiler. Maybe I need to remind her I was once obsessed with her, which is part of the reason why I married her. Someday, Ill be able to settle into the long winters nap, rather than looking at the temp and to see if the boiler is on or off. Reynz
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i has to turn off
think about, if your return was 90f, and it could suck every drop of flue heat out, then perhaps, it could modulate down, but at the temp, your running it at, it knows, that the only way your getting the excess heat out of it is, by turning off the burner and letting you circulate the heat out of it, which is probably less wastefull than running at a lower flame, which will only get a small part of the heat exchanger to your temp, and the other end will so cold (remember it designed for a 90f return) it will actually suck the heat right out of your return water, and send it up the flue, with the combustion fan's draft - i dont think you really want that, so at your temp, they cant really give you the full bennefit of the modulation,
i'll bet you didnt think it went both ways, but the fact is, when the burners's fan is on, and the exchanger is cold, and your water is warm, you are loosing heat to it, and with aluminum, rapidly so, - pretty wild - eh! -
dont worry, you will still save a bundle of gas - if you wife is jealous of the boiler, tell her, that if she modulates up and down..... 0 -
Hey guys...
been away for a few days to the Wirsbo Minicamp.....
A fabulous experience...it reinforced alot of stuff I new already and I learned about some really neat new stuff!!!
Sounds like you's are getting a handle on the Ultra...
I believe thoung it was Reynz that was saying that the boiler was shutting down while there was still a call for heat and a 10* delta T.... to me that is telling me that you have some piping or pump issues.... the water isn't going through the boiler fast enough.... with out seeing what you have there it is hard for me to tell... also I wish that the rate at which the modulation took place could be sped up... that would help, but that capability isn't there ... yet.
The reason that you were have problems with over heating before you cut the temp. was that you got the rads. so hot before the boiler shut off that they just had too much heat stored in them and after the boiler shut down they still had all that heat to give off and they over heating the room. by cutting the temp you helped to solve that problem, and made the system much more eff. and comfortable...
As for the boost feature... that is ONLY going to happen when the boiler is in reset mode... also I think you will find the you will want to rethink your reset at night now...only go back a couple of degrees at the most... by knocking the water temp. back you are getting better eff. and comfort, but you are lossing the capability to "recover" in a timely manner. I believe that you will find that with a conservative setback like 2* you will still get very good eff.
You can also try the constant circ. but I feel that it will help very little on rads. and none on fin-tube, and yes, then it will run 24/7.....
Also there was some discussion about the PVC vent pipe.... I'm not sure how or why..... but all I know is that at high temps the PVC pipe still holds up very well!!!!
Then there is the abuse issue.... in march at the factory I grilled them extensively about that and even saw some boilers in the "test" room getting the **it kicked out of them.....the factory people said then that they have tried every possible way to kill the boiler they could think of....very cold water to a hot boiler.....dry fire....you name it.......they claimed that the sensors will shut the boiler down on a dry fire before damaging the boiler! Hey, I know some will not believe it, but I believe they did it....not that I ever want to find out for myself, I hope I never get first hand experience with that!
Floyd0 -
You are killing me
I thought I was the only comedian. Good one Kal! I'll compare this months bill against last months and see if there is a difference. It has solved my temp fluctuation. It is overall more consistent, just as Floyd described.0 -
Kal,
You really out to get one of the Ultra boilers and play with it yourself.... so much of what you say about it has no basis and you are overthinking it...the fan slows down when the boiler modulates down and therefore when that boiler is in low fire there is just a wisp of steam coming out of the exhust at a very low velocity.
Don't mean to fight with you about things, but some of your ideas are just plain wrong....trust me.... I had to go through the same rethinking process....sat beside Dan last march and was a sceptical fool......said many things I wish I hadn't....even gave Dan some writing fodder......
suck the heat out of the water????? Come on!!!!!
Floyd
check these things out yourself with an open mind.......0 -
Glad you are back
Thought you left us. I appreciate your comments and advice. You obviously know what you are talking about. I can't really do much of a setback at night yet, because although my wife and I like it cold, I have 2 year old triplets that can't quite remmeber to cover themselves up yet. So, it stays a little warmer in the house for them. Kal, as far as your comment, I DON'T WANT MY WIFE TO MODULATE ANYMORE! She gets pregnant again, and I'm leaving.0 -
YOU.....
get it snipped!!!!! :-)0 -
i am getting one..
but its going into a radiant system - where WM "THEY" (not me) claim 98% - and Im sure Im going to love it
does yours modulate down at 152?, and if you have a infra-red temp gun I would like you to take the cover off an get me a temp reading of the heat ex around the water inlet area when its at 152, I am real curious WM should have a FAQ on their site that deals with all this technical stuff if its this is as good as you say it is, for hi-temps apps, Il switch, I have lugged enough cast iron boilers in my life.
ps energy flows downhill, even if a cast iron boiler is colder, than the return water, then the energy will flow toward the cast iron, or did i miss something elementary school, besides overthinking is what I do, its not top secret and its not magic, it has to make sense, before I go for it, I am more than happy to learn I am not afraid of being the fool, as long as I get the hard info in the end, I have a lust for knowledge - and a little friendly sparing is always good, it forces us to stretch our brains and keeps us honest,
it was the way of all ancient schools of higher learning, I have the utmost respect for you, so I wont disagree with what you state as fact but when it comes to hows and whys I just need to know, and dont want to do learn it at my customers expense,
Dont think that Reynz should have gone through all that
you sat beside dan was this at a WM seminar? Are they having any ones around nyc, anytime soon?
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I know
the heat exchanger gives off a lot of heat because during this cold snap I took off the cover and it wormed the basement up. I am currently remodeling it and some of the insalation is down. It got cold down their and I was worried about the pipes. I noticed a diffrence after about an hour. Now, I did up the output temp. to 180 during this cold snap. (3 degrees and windy) so the high output temp. probably had something to do with this. I know the manual says don't run it with out the cover but the basement is closed and no other appliences were running.0 -
I'm off to the races.....
this morning, you know, my term for "too much to do and not enough time to do it in"... anyhow I'll try to get some readings for you when the boiler is running on low fire... I'll get back to you.....
When I sat with Dan was at a plant tour that he so graciously arranged in conjustion with the Wetsock in Chicago.
Floyd0 -
Cover Off
Lead,
I had taken the cover off before and noted that, I BELIEVE, the intake air PVC pipe was only connected to the top of the boiler and not to any specific unit. That leads me to beleive that if you take off the cover, you are pulling air in from your basement and not from outdoors, as it would with the cover on. Check that out anyway, and if you are alright with using the basement air, then it is fine.0 -
Kal's question
I hate to attempt a response at this, as I am truly a novice, but here it goes.
The Ultra allows you to check various functions with the control unit. There are occasions, while in operation, that the return water temperature is close to, if not exactly the same as the measured outlet water temperature, according to the control unit. That is the reason, I suspect, that I am having such luck maintaining consistent temp in my home. The CI Baseboard Rads are heated up to the system temp, thus preventing the overrun of the thermostat and the colder starting point because it takes a while to heat them. Gary in another forum, had suggested to me that continuous circulation with CI Baseboard rads are very important as it keeps them as close to the overall system temp as it can. Floyd has a slightly different opinion, but in the heating world, this might just be an opinion item, and not an absolute fact based one. Some say do it, some say don't.
Kal, also thanks for looking out for the customer. I am the customer in this case and not the expert. In my case, I don't believe the company who sold me my Ultra, has any further obligation to me other than installing it correctly, and giving me a basic understanding of what it is suppose to do. Fine tuning it for my specific operation is my responsibility. If it breaks or something leaks or I discovered they did something wrong, I'll call them back. BUT, learning about all this other technical stuff (opinions and all) is my responsibility. Plus, I don't believe the HVAC company I dealt with had installed these before, so I don't expect them to have the same level of knowledge as Floyd, since he has one. He is not only a HVAC professional, but an owner. It brings a lot of credibility to the table. You too are something more than just a wrench turner. Your responses and discussions are obviously very well thought out and intelligent. I'd be interested in knowing Floyds and your level of expertise. You and he either have 30 years experience in the field, are engineers, or both. I'm impressed with everyone, and have learned a ton of stuff in this discussion.
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man, i'm green with envy
wish i could make it to wetstock, it's the ultimate opportunity to feel ignorant - it's as good for the soul and hubris is bad for it - not to mention what is would do for my knowledge base, wish they could tape it, but then, everyone would be shy, and no learning would get done
ps i posted this thread's link to WM and beseeched them to get seminars around the country and more info on their site - i feel like im in a vacuum - trying to apply logic without the facts - eg, i didnt know they modulate the combustion fan too (duh on me, they would have to control the air somehow), who know what other tricks it does - then again a lot of it is in software, and software falls into one of 3 categories, it either, 1)does nothing significant, or 2)is obsolete, or 3)is full of bugs - and you know it's number 30 -
double click
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the day i stop being a student
is the day you can put me in a box -
trust me, i welcomed the feedback as much, as you, i need the info to make money at this, and not hurt the customer, something we always fear, the are a lot less unscrupulous people in this industry, than they would have you believe, a poorly installed system makes most of us sick0 -
Owner be careful...
it's good to understand and appreciate your heating equipment, but there are programmable parameters within that control that the installer is responsible for. Readjusting some of these may cause over-firing of the boiler, erratic operation, or no heat on a call. I'm sure that most of the guys here who do the installation would not want these altered. You are confirming your actions as you make programming changes, so you'll probably be alright - were you given the service access code by the installer?0 -
I agree with you Jim
Unfortunately, I was not convinced the installer knew what he was doing. He commented that the Ultra manual was very technical, and he was unsure of the settings. I told him I would be contacting the HVAC company owner for some assistance to ensure it was programmed properly. He agreed as we both knew it was a little over his head.
However, once I looked over the book, it seemed pretty easy to understand. I checked the setup parameters (at least those that didn't require any special equipment) and confirmed they were as the book directed, with the exception of one "Space heating". It was set for continuous operation from the factory, and it should have been set for circulator on when call for heat. I called WM and they provided me the correct information.
Additionally, anything else I did was confirmed with or at the guidance of WM.
As far as your other question, there is no service code for the Ultra.
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are you talking about
the "controls supplement" doc, cause i could not find anything else along those lines on their site or anything else - and it does't give enough info about the ramifications of each mode - especialy the "space heating" set points
is all the docs you got with the system on their web site also? maybe we are not reading the same stuff
and on pg 18 of the "controls supplement", "SH setup paramiter #3 see details below" and the notes below says to leave the setting alone, first they give it to you, then they tell you not to touch it - "dont you just love it when a plan comes toether" - i am so so glad slant-fin is watching this!!!
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WM Information
You are absolutely correct Kal. It says nothing about it. There is a section "Start up" in the manual, that asks you to verify settings for Space heating operation, Check DHW Operation Setup, and talks about setting it to high fire mode and look at the flame, etc. That is what I went over to check the settings on my system. Under set space heating operation, it asks if, in the Para mode, Mode 3, it was set to 301, if not to change it to 301. Mine was not, it was set to 303. I called WM and asked them about this. They said 303 was for continuous circulator operation and that allowed for a call for heat, and 301 was for circulator on only when call for heat happens. I BELEIVE they said 302 was circulator on and not allowing a call for heat, but I could be wrong. I asked them specifically if it was alright to leave the circulator running continuously if I desired, at the 303 setting. They said yes, no problem. I don't understand why they say DON'T DO IT in the book, and it is adjustable.
Under the Set space heating target temperature section it says you can use the + or - to change it to the desired outlet water temp (Factory setting is 190). I called WM after reading Floyd's posting and they said I could set it for whatever I wanted as long as it was high enough to keep my house warm. Other than those two settings and the domestic hot water (DHW) setting if you have one, there didn't seem to be anything else that was adjustable. With my three kiddies, I would not set or do anything that was questionable.
Thanks for the questions. I feel like the first kid on the block to get a television. I don't remember those days, as I'm only 44.
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if you read a couple of dan's
ziggi's books and buy ziggi's software, i think, you are ready to get into the business,
ps if the pump is on steady it's costs 9.5472 per month as 17cents per KilloWattHour
720hrs * 78 watts(apx) / 1000(for kw) *.17(nyc prices) = 9.5472
--
you said you have triplets, did you do IVF? cause if you did, watch out, it tends to make her more fertile than a Mississippi cornfield after an April rain0 -
WM called me
as soon as i sent them the email, Matt Downs (mdowns@weil-mclain.com) has been following this track, and first off he reminded me the we forgot all about reynz's air problem (shame on us) and they are working to enhance the docs on the web and gave me the local WM number to try to get a seminar going in the area.
what ever did happen to your air problem, did increasing the pressure and careful bleeding solve it???
do you have a good air scoop?, i personally always use a spirovent
also your constant temp and circulation should eliminate the ticking noise you were getting from expansion and contraction of the pipes0 -
I think problem solved
Couple of problems getting mixed up here. I think it was Leadpipe who said he heard a ticking noise in his Ultra, all I hear is the Ching Ching of money going into my children's college savings account as a result of the energy savings with my new Ultra, and my wife desirous of a little more up and down modulation at night because of a warm house (that one was for you Kal!)
No, there doesn't seem to be an air problem anymore. With the system always running, it appears the pressure is up to about 27 lbs. I only bled it and didnt increase the pressure. I dont know how to do that. I have a theory. Could it be, with the high temps I was running before upto 190 degrees to get the house warm, and the cooling down of the water to 80, could my system have been drawing in air because of the major temperature differences? I don't seem to have that problem anymore.
Also I can't begin to tell you the major, I MEAN MAJOR relief I'm feeling with a system that is now keeping my home at a constant temp, without the run from 68 to 74 degrees, and back again. THANK YOU FLOYD! There were times, with the long CI baseboard run in the family room, that it would be 78 degrees in there. The rest of the house would be up to 74 degrees. Then back down to 68 while my CI baseboard rads were heating up again. My wife asked, I thought hot water heat was supposed to keep your house at a more constant temp that hot air. How was I suppose to answer that one after spending several thousand dollars on a new boiler?
I tried everything, and asked every kind of question to try and find a way to keep the house constant. Go with two zones, no three, use TRVs, turn your valves down, turn them up, stand on your head, stick you tongue out like this, aaahhheeeeeeee, and close one eye (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH) They are my long distance cellular minutes and Im keeping them (Oh sorry, am I sounding like a commercial). Then Floyd said to turn down the target temp to where the boiler is running to maintain the heat in the home. Talk about thinking outside the box! Well it appears to be working. Right now my boiler is chugging along at 152 output and 146 return, and my house is a comfortable and consistent at 70.7 degrees downstairs, 69.8 upstairs (baseboards a little shorter there) and about 74 in the family room that has a tremendous problem with heat loss (over an uninsulated crawlspace and three outside walls). Im happy, and ready for another set of triplets (NOT!)
WM, thanks for your email, and I will contact you if I continue to have air problems. The Ultra is still pretty new, and not all contractors have installed one, I suppose. I told my HVAC professional that I wanted an efficient boiler, THE MOST EFFICIENT, I want the Ultra.
My initial trip to Heating Help.com was a concern and questions about heating my home because of the three two-year olds who occupy one of my bedrooms, and play in the family room. I really think the Ultra was a good fit for me, although HVAC professionals didn't think I needed it. My concern was efficiency. If one only buys a new boiler every 25 to 30 years, I wanted the most efficient.
Oh, Im still going to get pictures, just need to get my Dads camera.
Kal, did I answer all the questions? Reynz
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got all the answer
though you should not have had to manually play to set the correct SH temp - you should only have to tell it what type of heating system you have, and the basic temps like a tekmar 361 does, - it has the indoor/outdoor and water temp sensors - so it you tell it, that you have for eg baseboard (what tekmar calls a terminal unit type 6 in computerees an output device is a terminal ), and that, you designed it for, say 180 on a 20 degree day, and it will give you, say 155 on a 40 degree day, all by itself by modulating the boiler and the injection pump - WM is supposedly working with tekmar to set this up in the near future so that it can actually tell the boiler what set point it wants instead of just turning on/off the boiler
- and they are also going to simplify the multi-boiler setup - something i am real interested in.
I dont think the expansion and contraction from 190 to 80 was sucking air in it probably was never bled correctly, it has to be done slowly and carefully, and takes time, also 27psi is a little high for a boiler officially rated for 30,
if you let some water out does go right back to 27? - (see, a new question) if it does, you need to adjust the automatic feed down I use 5.8 per floor though officially its 4.6-5.2 depending on the floor height so 22 should be more than enough for you
PS I only wish all my customers were like you
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I'll let you know
Well, as all good things come to an end, so does the constant firing on my boiler. It is officially 42 degrees outside here according to my WM outdoor sensor, and the boiler doesn't need to be constantly on to maintain the temperature, so it is circulating 92 degree water around my house waiting for a call for heat. I'll let some water out when it is fired up and setting at around 27 lbs, and let you know if it goes back.
Well, learned a lot about this process. The most important for me being constant circ. As others have said before, it seems CI baseboards have a tremendous amount of mass to be heated. Once they are, they just keep radiating heat, and it doesn't take much to keep them heated and maintaining a constant temp. One or two degrees plus or minus is all that is generally needed, I guess.
I think I have a suggestion for WM. (WHO THE HECK AM I ANYWAY. JUST FELL OFF THE TURNIP TRUCK YESTERDAY, AND ALREADY IM GIVING SUGGESTIONS TO WM) This might be just what you mentioned to me. In the operating section of the WM manual, there is a chart to show how the Ultra control module calculates target temperature. Since I adjusted my outside target temp to 152 degrees on a 32 degree day, a flip through the information mode on the control panel on my boiler tells me that for a 42 degree temperature, like it is now, it has calculated the target temp for my heated water to be 128 degrees. Well, there is also a Supply temperature boost feature that boosts the target temperature if a call for heat exceeds 10 minutes. At each 10 minutes of continuous call for the heat, it is boosted 18 degrees. Now, if the boiler is used wit a copper fin baseboard, that might be acceptable, but with CI baseboard rads, it might be too quick, since CI rads are so dense (the same word my wife has used to describe me) and it is probably the reason the temp overshoots the thermostat all the time. A system like you described above would probably help. Is this what WM would be attempting to achieve with a tekmar 361? You know, I almost feel like Im 17 years old again, trying to get advice on how to tweak the carburetor and timing of my parents 1977 Chev Malibu sedan, to make it go faster. Isnt this great? The only problem is, you are the mechanic and dont own the car, I do. Floyd was right, you need to get one of these. Once you do, you and Floyd could probably get hired by WM as consultants to do seminars around the country for them. Reynz
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i dont know if
they will use the 361 exactly cause it is designed for a variable speed injection (ie a boiler loop, a system loop with the zones off it, and an injection loop the feeds from one to the other) - but something like it -
for the feed:
turn it off, shut the freash water supply line, and let the water down to 17, and open the supply line, so you can hear if it feeds instantly, and lets see what it does - since you ar pumping to, it might just add 3 when the pummp turns on, (because of diferential) and another 2 when the system heats up - which should be enough, then turn the supply line off and see what happens in 24hrs - if no new air is entering the system and you have no leaks, if you start at 17 cold, it should not go down below 17 - dan holohan likes the idea of putting a small inline water flow meter so you see if you are loosing water
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when i get my ultra - i will probably break it, with my "overthinking" - it's a pity i dont have one now, this is the perfect test weather, brooklyn doesnt usually get this cold, where are those greehouse gases when you need them
the ultra has a lot of smarts as is, it just needs to take design hints easier, like the tekmar does, and make it's smarts setable by other smart devices like a tekmar.
i suspect WM will have control upgrades, before the competition can get their units to market
ps - pardon the spell/grammer i am actualy asleep as i am writing this0 -
I just looked
at my pressure and its set at 14, and I thought this was a bit high. I am at work and don't have the manual in front of me.
I just looked it up on line, Page 23
"Operating temp must NEVER exceed 25 psig." You better turn that baby down a bit. It also says that a normal cold fill will be about 12 psig. Maybe you should check Your expansion tank, could be a problem with it. I don't know but you should look into this right away.
Even when mine ir running all out it never goes above 16.0 -
12 lbs is a generic starting point
good for most residential, but he has 30-40ft from feed valve to highest point so he needs at least 16 otherwise he wont be able to push air out the top of the bleed valves, cause the weight of the water will keep it below the valve, a min of 4.6 for every 10ft
the WM eng assured me that they tested it more that 2.5 times rated pressure, so if it doesnt get above 20-22 hot, it should be ok and enough for 40ft
if you need to go into a high complex with a bunch of ultra's - you need a flat plate exchanger to isolate the pressures - or you put them on the roof where you can set it for 12psi or even less at the boilers on the roof, but in the basement - the actual pressure will also have the weight of the water height - thats the counter point to the law of hydraulics that says that pressure is equal in all parts of a pressure vessel, except for gravity - which make the pressure higher at the bottom, but that is a whole nother confusing topic
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I can understand upping the
pressure when you are bleeding it but do you need to keep it so high once the air is out. The WM reps may say it's okay to do it but when your boiler has problems and one comes to your house and sees the pressure above what the manual says are they going to say that's okay your boiler is still covered under the warrantee or are they going to say its your problem for not following the manual?
I think he said his was at 27psig0 -
27 is too high for
the ultra, though and WM insider said thay ran it at 75 for a long term test - but there is no need , 22 is the most he could need if he had 12ft ceilings and the vent was in the attic, and he said his ceilings were normal, so 17 shold be it for him - i think, it was never bled right - but
it probably has the air out now, he should just drop to 17 cold and see what happens - trouble if the expasion tank wasnt precharged right, (it probably was 12 or less), and the rubber diaphram is already strechd to the limit when cold at 17, it wont take much expansion without raising the pressure, so now he has got to take it off - hopefully the installer left him a shut off valve for it (i always do) and empty it, precharge it to 17, fill it with water (you dont want to introduce 2 galons of air) and hook it back up, and the automatic feed wil also have to be adjusted, the installer should come back and do this for him, this has nothing to do with the boiler type, i go back to all my jobs and check the air after a week - and if i didnt loose too much money on the job, i will go back every early fall and get it started up - free - it promotes lots of good will - though it's best to make a service contract with the job - it saves you and the customer a lot of greif0 -
Satisified for now
Ok, just spoke to my HVAC Professional. (He is very responsive, been in the business for many, many, years, and I have the utmost confidence in him.)
Surprisingly enough Kal, my system is cold now (92 degrees) and the pressure is about 15 or 16, circulator still running. I really dont trust these gauges entirely, as Ive noticed the temp gauge is not exactly in sync with the digital readout.
He explained that every installation is different, and after we talked about all concerns posted about the pressure, he said he didnt feel there was anything to worry about and he felt it was operating properly. (By the way, Im sure that if he were asked, he would be out in a minute.)
As we must all follow our doctors recommendations, Im going to stick with him on this. Dont take this as if Im discounting your recommendations, that is the reason I called him. He is responsible overall for the system and installation. Lets see what happens. Here in the North East we are headed for another cold snap. Another big test for the boiler. As previously mentioned, Im sure it will do well ..
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This discussion has been closed.
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