Staple-up concerns after install

htsmi

I had full house heating upgrade this past June, including a Rinnai combi boiler, baseboard in the basement, and staple-up pex for the main floor. Since then I've had two leaks in the pex tubing from it being penetrated by existing nails/screws while shifting/expanding. The installers came back to repair both with crimp couplings, even though I asked the to replace the entire loop. They were talking like it is so hard to see every little screw point and this sort of thing is inevitable, but I'm not buying it. For about half of the runs, they used high quality solid plates that separate the pex from the floor. If they had used these throughout there would have been no possibility of punctures. For the rest though they cheaped out and used plates that look a lot like aluminum foil bent over the tubing. The cheap plates also make SO much noise, constant crackling any time the heat is on.

Am I within reason to demand that they replace the cheap plates and the full loop where the leaks occurred? I put it off for a while but I'm finally getting the final inspection from the city soon. With winter coming I want to insulate the ceiling, but not if there's a risk of another leak! I know the couplings are legal, and used in plumbing all the time, but I'm still having a hard time accepting them when I wouldn't need them if they had done thing properly to begin with.

Two different types of plates

I also found this in a hidden corner of a different loop, apparently original to the install

Thanks!

bjohnhy

You've been through one winter with this? Did it heat the space well?

The joints are probably fine. I much prefer to see expansion fittings over crimp. And brass over poly but I can't quote you evidence brass is better.

It is disappointing to see the taco circ installed with the incorrect orientation of the motor axis.

What is your climate? With only one tube per joist bay, that would be hard to keep up with many cold regions.

Is the outdoor reset function on? That can improve efficiency, make the heating run "all the time" at lower temp so you get less issues with expansion and contraction noises

mattmia2

since it is pex a i would rather see expansion couplings but crimp couplings done correctly are acceptable. i don't think i would push them to replace the whole loop.

finding the nails isn't hard if you are paying attention. maybe they need to take the plates down and check and replace any sections of tubing that they skewered on a nail.

what did they spec for the plates? it is hard to hold them to a specific product if it wasn't called out in the spec although you can make them make the plates they did use not make noise when they move.

JMWHVAC

The tin foil plates are not “bad”. In heat output they are a step up from only tubing under the floor and the extruded plates are another step up. It is possible they used what they needed for the heat output. I do many jobs with only tubing. Plates or not is determined by the heat demands of the room, the available or desired supply water temps and the R-value of the floor. A coupling is not a big deal, however, I cringe seeing those elbows. They add a fair bit of head but if it’s a loop with plenty of flow vs the other loops it will be fine. Long story short, the question is, does it do what it is supposed to? That is, warm the floor or the whole room, whichever is the design.

GroundUp

You can demand all you want, but a company that doesn't know how to install a gas line, circulator, or underfloor tubing correctly isn't likely to oblige. There is nothing wrong with the couplings or the beer can plates, but some diligence should have been applied prior to installation of the tubing. Removing the talons on the ends of each loop will help significantly with noise. So while I sympathize with you, they have no obligation to replace the whole loop and frankly, they shouldn't. But they should come back and fix the pump (horizontal motor), gas line (no sediment trap), and remove those talons for nothing.

Ironman

Any nails or screws that were protruding through the floor should have been ground off before the installation of the tubing. If they did not take care to do this, you have the possibility of more leaks showing up.

Unless you’re in a very mild climate, that floor is not gonna produce enough heat during cold weather with only one tube per joist bay.

The tubing should not be strapped down at the “U” bend. It needs to be allowed to expand there.

I’m not impressed with what they did - at least not in a positive way.

ethicalpaul

The extruded plates are so much better—they protect the pex and make great heat absorption from the pex and transfer to the wood floor. I have no idea why they mix and matched these types in their install.

GGross

for noise I assume the ones that run the entire length with no gap are the noisy ones?

there is supposed to be a minimum gap between the plates to allow for some expansion.

Download the Taco pump manual and show them that they have installed the circulator incorrectly. it will fail much more quickly installed like that.

show the inspector that the installer failed to install a dirt leg on the gas line

It is absolutely normal to ask for a new loop when a brand new system got a hole in the tubing before inspection was final. They used some of the least expensive pex around, they can swing a new loop. the part you are stuck with is the underfloor system is mostly all installed incorrectly. it MAY work, but it is not what was paid for unless your quote says something like "contractor will just slap the tubing and plates up randomly and fingers-crossed maybe it works" Now is the time to complain.

htsmi

Appreciate the responses. It sounds like there may be bigger concerns than the couplings. As for whether I am in a cold climate, I am in Anchorage, Alaska, so yes. But it may not be clear in the photo that the joists are only spaced 12-13 inches apart. I had them run the ends of the loops under them rather than through them because they are such small boards I was afraid of compromising the integrity by drilling so many holes through them.

I have not been through a winter yet with the system, it was only installed this past June. It's kept up so far but temperatures have only been in the 30s. Without insulation though, a lot of heat is falling into the basement. Now I'm a little worried. I had hoped that proper calculations and sizing were done. This was a large part of my reason to hire professionals rather than DIY. I'm going to have to ask some questions.

GGross

Yes forgot to add that. You must have insulation on the lower level side to stop heat from transferring to the cooler space below. I guess I naively assumed they were doing that yet

htsmi

They did exclude the insulation from the beginning, I was aware I would have to do that myself. I hoped everything else would be done properly though.

AlaskaDick

Your experience makes me grateful that I decided to install my own retrofit radiant system, also in Anchorage and still in progress. Would you mind sending me a message with the name of your installer, so I can avoid them if I need to contract for service in the future?

A suggestion - start your insulation with the rim joists, sealing any air leaks with spray foam. It'a going to be cold very soon. In my house I used at least R8 rigid foam cut to fit and used the spray foam to seal around the edges. I put R8 on the outside of the foundation, if I hadn't I probably would have added a bit more rigid to the rim joists.

hot_rod

I would ask to see the load calc and system design. That would indicate the required tube spacing. Typically the tube is 8” on center, two runs per joist bay.

If the heat load in the rooms is low, the wide tube and crappy transfer plates may get the job done.

Wirsbo promoted suspended tube for years, even in severe Minnesota climate,

The only way I would use those flashing transfer plates is sandwiched between the finish floor and subfloor. That keeps them from “oil canning”

The key to extruded plates is not so much the thickness, but they grab the tube tightly. That is key to transfer.

Also the thin plates don’t contact the floor as well.

Dragging a wide putty knife under the floor is a good way to locate nails protruding.

Unless there was a scope of work, or a contract spelling out what the system components were to be. It’s a negotiation with the installer now.

Are those 2x6 or 2x8 joists? It would have been nice to drill the joist ends instead of looping under them.

Incorrect pump orientation and bull head tees are not ideal.

AlaskaDick

I may be missing something, but it from the description and photo the baseboard in the basement and under-floor radiant are each on their own zone, but are operating at the same temperature. I'm far from an expert, but shouldn't there be a mixing valve so the water for each zone can be supplied at a different temperatures?

hot_rod

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1906477#Comment_1906477

Without a load bnumber and a design, with that wide spacing he may in fact need a high SWT to that underfloor installation.

You can cheat a mis applied system by increasing SWT. Up until you cant stand on the floor or the covering squirms.

HomerJSmith

All these installers have to do is read Caleffi's Idronics which is free online to do the job right. Ticking (noise from the expanding pex) from using heat transfer plates was eliminated by using talcum power in the grooves before the pex is installed. Talcum (cancer causing?) is out so I use corn starch instead.

It bothers me to see shabby work. I've corrected so many mistakes that other installers made over the years that I'm blue in the face,

I recently had to replace a failed 3 way motorized valve in a most difficult position. I was concerned about my solder job and air pressurized the zone and tested it with leak detector and, of course, had a leak. I took it apart, cleaned it, and re-soldered it and re air tested. I told the owner that there wouldn't be any charge as it was my mistake and I make it right.

@htsmi , you deserve the same.

bjohnhy

To Summarize all the issues that are visible in the photos that are described above and to add a couple. These are only the issues visible!!! I can imagine there are several more suboptimal issues that are not seen in the photos.

Issues:

1. Taco circulator orientation incorrect
2. No dirt leg on the gas line
3. Only 1 tube per joist bay (not enough in your climate).
4. PEX loops secured on the ends (doesn't allow expansion as well).
5. Avoiding the nails.
6. Taco Back flow/pressure reducer orientation.
7. Expansion tank not supported appropriately?
8. Rigid gas line? (some earthquake zones require a length of Flex).

Style points:

1. Extruded plates vs less expensive "beer can" plate.
2. Crimp 90 degree Elbows - add flow resistance
3. Drill joist holes rather vs loop under (Pex looping under joists cuts down on your heat transfer area to the floor)
4. Bullhead tees
5. Expansion vs crimp fittings

This is quite sad. Best of luck to you.

Kaos

One more thing to add there based on " SO much noise, constant crackling any time the heat is on." points to the outdoor reset curve not being set up and the floor heat run with very hot water.

With a reasonably well set up ODR curve, the water temperature in the tubes should stay pretty sable limiting expansion and there should be minimal noise.

htsmi

Well, I had the city inspector come through for the final and raised my concerns, but he said he wasn't able to cite any code violations. The Taco circulator manual states that is can be installed in either position, as long as it is properly purged of air. He said that they do not strictly enforce the gas sediment trap because we have very clean natural gas and it's rarely an issue. He signed off on it and closed the permit. So much for any resolution through that route.

I brought up that I had never seen any plans or load calculations. He said they probably based it on the BTU rating of the previous 70 year old in-wall furnace, but that was a conversation between me and them, the city didn't have anything to do with it. It never occurred to me that the city would issue a permit without requiring any of that. Feeling pretty let down by the regulatory system that I relied on to ensure that this was at least baseline acceptable. I was adamant that everything be permitted.

I've had the hydronic water temperature set at 130 on the display. I don't think there is any outdoor reset function enabled.

As far as the routing the PEX under the joists goes, I initially had concerns about the structural implications of drilling >1" holes in the 2x6 joists, so suggested routing them that way, and they agreed to it. In later conversations with others I realized that that was probably not necessary and a mistake, but it was too late at that point.

I'm not sure what the next step is, it's getting colder by the week, but I don't want to install insulation at when I don't know if the system was properly designed or if it will need to be changed. I can't afford to spend a whole lot more than I already have. I'll probably wait and see how well it heats. If it really fails to heat the space, at least I will have a legitimate reason to apply pressure.

hot_rod

Oh it will heat the space, but maybe not sufficiently on coldest days. Insulation is a must.

I agree you would not want to drill the 2X6 joists, so the loop under is the only option.

It is possible that some areas require a heat load calculation for hydronic systems, mainly new construction.

I'd doubt this will move the same 70K the wall furnace dis. Somewhere in the 20- 30 btu/ sq ft is reasonable for properly designed and installed residential radiant.

I believe Taco indicates 20 psi or above systems the pump can be vertical. Although I'm not sure why that is. Certainly confuses many, I wish they would eliminate than. 20 psi fill doesn't give you a lot of expansion room if you set 25 as your expected high point pressure as some do.

I think it is down to your installer doing right by you. If there was no design or system spec, and the home does not stay warm, unfortunately legal action may be the next stem. Or threat of it?

skyking1

Thanks for posting this up OP. So many issues on a single install.

The punctures you experienced were not just because of the nails, it was also a function of that motion, caused by the poor materials, practices, and the likely very high and fluctuating SWT.

HomerJSmith

The Uniform Building Code tells you how and where you can drill a hole in a floor joist. I have given this much thought over the years. The loss of structural strength that comes from drilling the hole is mitigated by, I think, by as an example, a 1 1/4" hole in a joist, cutting a 1 1/2" long 1 1/4" iron pipe and gluing it in the hole with expanding glue. That I would think would restore structural strength to the joist. The Pex can pass thu the hole.

epmiller

I've installed a couple systems with the "beer can" plates including maybe half of my own home and they are very quiet except one zone on a cold start on a cold day and even then it's only a few ticks, probably from the end loops moving, not the plates. Any time I install those plates I staple them up with 1/2" plywood or OSB lath that completely covers the plates. Tight sandwich=no noise. This could easily be done to this system before the insulation goes in.

As to the talons holding the pex, yes, lose them. Hold the tubing up with plastic plumbers strap anchored at both ends or if you want to get fancy, a 1" by 6" long piece of plywood spaced off the joist with 3/4" stock. Plenty of space to move in a 4" slot and no noise. Put a piece of milk jug plastic in there if you are worried about wear. I don't like the idea of drilling that small a joist even if it's considered structurally acceptable, although it will make insulating a good bit more difficult this way.

12"OC joist bays are a pain to get two tubes into, I end up going thru the joists twice to get the end loop large enough to meet install specs. I know you are supposed to install the length of tubing to match the heat required for the room but I tend to install a bit more than is required, it's easier to limit the flow at the manifold than to fix a cold customer.

Another thing I do when going thru a joist if I'm worried about noise is drill a 7/8" hole and shove a piece of 3/4" pex in it for a sleeve for the 1/2" hePex. Very quiet.