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OK, who made this mess?
J/K I know that no one here made this horrible mess. My niece bought a house and this is their boiler. Which model is it?
So much is wrong, it makes me cry.
Besides the pumps pushing into the bottom of the boiler, through undersized "return manifold/header" steel pipe. The fresh water supply snaking from right side ceiling, behind the boiler around the left side through a pressure reducing feed valve, snaking across the boiler top front to the right side back and shockingly down into the the return manifold. The boiler supply piping coming off the face of the boiler where the pressure gauge should be. The pressure gauge is in the pressure relief valve port (relief valve is installed into the upper back side of the boiler). The top right port should likely be THE supply, but has a float air vent. The existing supply piping is undersized, going left to two zones and to the upper right into the only air-scoop. 😱 Which is rotated & slanted down. The bladder tank is inverted & angled. The outlet of the air-scoop is 1/2" pipe into a flow check the changes back to 3/4" pipe for the basement zone. There is a zone return pipe 4 inches in front of the damper (service guy doing a vac & tune not happy). One of the flow checks is letting ghost flow upstairs; causes some short cycling of the burner and making that zone hot.
I just want to straighten out the supply piping and air scoop. This might be replaced with a gas fired boiler within 2 years. Reluctantly leaving the pumps to push into the bottom return. I think that the fresh water should NOT go into the return. I could leave the 1/2" pipe as a passive bypass from the boiler hot supply. Then re-route the fresh water into a tee for the air-scoop bottom port with the bladder tank. Which should be 18" horizontal pipe from the elbow off the vertical 18" high supply pipe, from the top right port. All three zones' supply piping should be from after the air-scoop.
What do you think of my plan? Did I miss anything (besides pumping away)?
Comments
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Oddly enough it looks like it has been working. What to fix? :)
Moving the PONPC to the return with 3 circs is not an option. You are pumping at the point of no pressure change with 3 probably over-sized circs.
A diaphragm tank works in any position, nipple up is preferred.
Even with the pipe restrictions, the over-sized zone circs are probably moving enough btus./
Some models of Caleffi air vents have the float on a pin, so out of plumb is not an issue.
I would only touch it if you can make it completely correct. Sawzall time!
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
I'm going to guess the reason the pipe going to the expansion tank is bent like that is that the expansion tank is waterlogged and now weighs about 60 pounds. When you replace it, put a small valve in so the next time it needs replacing you don't have to bleed down the system. Also support it so that even when waterlogged it is held up.
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Its not pretty but I see no reason to trash the whole thing. i would fix/rehang/replace the expansion tank and that's about it as long as it works don't mess with it.
My biggest complaint with the whole thing is when there is plenty of room around the boiler why jamb everything in tight like it's in a closet? Just makes it harder to work on. I wouldn't move the circulators either.
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isn't the barometric damper supposed to not be in the bull of that tee as well?
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Nasty.
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I pitty the guy, or gal who has to service that boiler. For that reason I'd start over. If it's nearly impossable to service it doesn't get serviced properly.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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those zip ties 😂
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It's got a genuine ZipTie pipe hanger© on it.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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@mattmia2 Yes barometric is wrong.
And yes difficult to clean the boiler as it gets cleaned through the top. Probably never been cleaned. That's what I alluded to in my first post about everything jammed together.
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If you are looking for a quick performance, efficiency upgrade with parts reusable when a new boiler is installed.
Add a press vertical air sep, install, delta P circ above, expansion tank connection at the sep. Or tie expansion and fill into the top boiler air vent connection.
Replace zone pumps with 120V zone valves
This gives you best air removal, Pumping Away, 20W circ, flow modulation as valves open and close, lower power consumption
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
Was added as a stop-gap until the tank gets re-piped.
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Thanks. I like that.
With zone valves, no need for flow checks, right?
Putting the zoned valves between the circulator flanges is pretty slick. Is that your invention?
Recommendation for the Zone valves? Vertical air separator? The Delta P single pump?
Where would an expansion tank be piped in relation to the vertical air separator (where you overlayed it)? Above or before the sep?
Thank you, again.
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It has been cleaned. The tech complained about it. Offered to re-pipe for $2K.
I imagine the former owner had it that way for a very long time.
I am not sure when that boiler was installed. Any idea what model it is?
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Hey Mad Dog. 🙂
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Weil-McLain WGO-something. The label should be on the left side. And yes, it's good to hear from you @Patchogue Phil_2 !
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Correct, the flo checks could go away with ZVs
Siggy's idea on the ZV pump replacer, I built some prototypes for a job in Maine.
Any 120V ZV could work. I built this with Caleffi ZV and Taco flanges. I suppose it could be built with sweat flanges and a sweat ZV.
120V ZVs will have a 1/2 KO for wiring with flex or condiut. Caleffi's are UL listed for this 120V application..
There is generally not an end switch on 120V ZVs due to two voltages in the enclosure issue.
Any brand of Delta P circ would work. I like the newest Grundfos 15-58E as it has a zone valve function as a control option. Price has come down on ECM circs, about 70 bucks more than a regular PSC circ.
You can close couple a circ to a microbubble air sep. With 1 iso valve this needs 18". Zone valves serve as the isolation on the other side for pump service.
You could eliminate the upper iso valve if there are other valves on supplies? To shorten the lay length.
A Caleffi vertical dirt sep is shown, same dimension as the air sep version 5517
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Back atcha!
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I pity the guy who lays a finger on it. It gets an estimate for corrections or replacement. That's it. Don't even breathe on it.
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Portaband cuts so much nicer, quieter, less stuff falling all over you etc.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Rube Goldberg would be so proud!!!!!!.
Lot of room for improvement there.
Eliminate the two pipe fuel lines in the floor and replace them with a new two pipe system hung in the ceiling from the tank to the Carlin oil burner
Cut away all the copper away.
Cut away the steel pipe for the circulators.
Move the boiler away from the walls and pull it forward.
Use black iron pipe for all the close boiler pipe and fittings.
Build a pump module for the three circulators or use one circulator and three zone valves to pump away from the boiler and remove the air vent and pipe from the top of the boiler and use that tapping to create the location for the pump module.
Install at least one pair of isolation valves with gauge ports for one or more circulators in the pump module.
Install a Bell & Gossett 30 gallon steel compression tank in the ceiling with a Bell & Gossett Drain-O-Tank Valve, Bell & Gossett Airtrol valve and a gauge glass in the two tappings in the dome of the steel compression tank.
Pipe in an Internal Air separator for the pump module 12 inches ahead of the first circulator.
Pipe the riser from Bell & Gossett Internal Air Separator to the Bell& Gossett Airtrol Valve at the base of the steel compression tank.
Install a Bell & Gossett RB-122-E low water cut off as the first eletric control for the boiler to protect it from a low water condition in the single return line to the sump.
Install a Marsh Instruments 1/2" four inch square Triple Gauge on the pressure side of the pump module.
Install a new pressure relief valve.
Use one of the sump tapping's for the cool water return and the other for a cleanout tapping.
Fix the flue pipe and chimney breech for correct size flue pipe and use the correct size Field Controls Draft Regulator piped in the vertical flue pipe.
Install a Dwyer Mark II manometer on the wall by the boiler with a probe in the horizontal flue pipe.
My thoughts as a homeowner that has had to deal with bad piping and controls of all sorts.
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so what should he do after lunch?
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You start at 9am?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I leave the house at 09:00
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Hope the customer likes the suggestion.
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I can't speak for the OP, but If I was them and you gave me that list, I wouldn't like it.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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You need to get Curley Howard to get a boiler cleaning brush inside all the piping since the boiler gets cleaned from the top.
Looks like they use that photo to design that boiler near boiler piping
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I guess if they don't like the suggestion they could find someone else to fix that mess then. A well thought out and assembled system with a Steel compression tank, water level gauge, Internal Air separator, Airtrol Valve, Low Water Cut Off Switch, and back flow preventer, is more important than sloppy work.
At least with a pump module mounted on the old boiler the old boiler can be removed and the new boiler slid into place with minimal black iron piping to reconnect it I would think as long as the pump module is mounted higher in the ceiling for adequate clearances.
If I was a licensed plumber with a steam license I would want to protect it and protect my reputation in the process with good work that a customer never has to worry about where I would leave a notebook with the homeowner describing how the new system works, how it will work on a heat call AND WHAT NOT TO DO TO IT like draining the steel compression tank every year as well as the Bell & Gossett literature describing how the steel compression works with no fuss or muss, how the Internal Air Separator works and what it does and how it creates the proper water level in the steel compression tank, what the Airtrol valve is and what it does to create the point of no pressure change, and what the Drain-o-Tank valve does.
It is no different than buying farm equipment, you spend good money on good machinery that you know you can depend on for plowing, planting, and the harvest; a case of buy once cry once.
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scrap coppers around $2.50 a #
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Not the last time I checked
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Closer to $4.00 here.
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$4.55 for #2 copper at my scrap dealer
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
remember the screen saver ?
which came first?
known to beat dead horses1 -
When you said "screen saver" this popped into my head. I haven't thought about those in a long time.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Cleaned up the piping. New flowchecks. New air tank, old one was full of water. Put all 3 zones supply piping AFTER the airscoop. Taught my nephew-in-law how to sweat copper. And the why's of doing this re-piping. Had him do a bunch of it himself. Some of the angles are not perfectly square, but it will work. Re-used as much of the old piping as possible to keep the cost down. Need a new auto vent for the air scoop. The rubber o-ring/gasket on the needle was brittle and not fully sealing/closing. Will replace both of them.
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Nice 'save' Phil. And good on ya for teaching copper sweating skills.
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You need to fix the mortar around the stove pipe with some high temperature silicone, it is separated from the wall.
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Shouldn't you just chip the loose stuff out and fix it with no shrink grout?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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