Upgrade to 007ECM?

Brent H.

Greetings,

I need to replace an IFC in one of my 15 year old 007s and was wondering if it’s worth replacing the whole circulator with the ECM version. The pump circulates water through the whole first floor and is probably the most used of any of my 007s.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Brent

psb75

It would pay for itself in energy savings.

pecmsg

will it?

Over how many years or decades?

Jamie Hall

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1903791#Comment_1903791

really? Show us the numbers.

hot_rod

is it a single zone? Or are there zone valves involved?

Where are you located, many utilities have rebates still

hot_rod

if you save even 25 bucks a year o electricity

And you get the 75- 100 bucks rebate

Numbers look good to me

Jamie Hall

But the question is… how much less electricity does it use? I hate to be fussy, and I recognise that there are applications where it is essential to save every tenth of a watt (space flight, for instance), but… even if the existing pump isn't working, you have to do the number.

pecmsg

EEV's Electronic Expansion Valves in refrigeration also save Electricity dollars. In a supermarket there worth it. In a mom-and-pop shop, maybe one or 2 are not worth the extra expense and reliability issues.

hot_rod

a few things to consider, the motor itself, the ECM will be more efficient

But also most single speed circs are over-pumping with a wire to water efficiency below 20%
being able to adjust the speed to the load is also an improvement

Pump people tell you 50-80%

An 80 W circ moving only a few gallons through a single loop may be 10%!

All these questions can be answered with some number crunching

Brent H.

My heating system is zoned with circulators so this one serves just the first floor. I’m sure it’s over pumped as the loop is all 3/4” copper and fintube baseboard on the first floor.

Doubtful any rebates are available as we have municipal electric so rates are reasonable but not much for rebates.

hot_rod

So a 007, number 5 on the graph, at 3-4 gpm is running way to the left of curve, maybe 10- 12% efficiency

Mid curve is where pumps like to run, 8-12 gpm is a comfort range for an 007.

I’d guess an ECM may run 17- 20 watts to move 4-5 gpm

Here is where you find rebate $$

Unless 100 bucks is peanut s to you😏

www.dsireausa.org

Brent H.

@hot_rod Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I’m not eligible for that rebate in my town. Most of those in MA are offered through a program called MassSave that I don’t have access to. Even found my town listed on a distributor website in a list of towns not eligible.

hot_rod

Well the price difference on SupplyHouse.com is between the007 and 007E is $71. I think you will recover that quickly, even without rebates.

i thought EnergyStar was a Fed program?

https://www.energystar.gov/rebate-finder

Brent H.

@hot_rod

It doesn’t show a single rebate for my zip code when I enter it into the energystar site.

I could just replace the IFC also but was trying to figure out if it was just worth changing the whole circulator if I have to pull it apart anyways.

EBEBRATT-Ed

same thing with the ECM blower motors on a furnace. it all looks good on paper until you have to pay for a new motor and the labor to replace them. they even sell kits to convert a furnace to a PsC motor.

Kaos

I have cheap electricity and even here the ROI on an ECM pump is about 2 years. If you have the typical wall of pumps, upgrading the often used zones is well worth it.

The one problem with PSC pumps is even when you turn them down, the use almost the same power. This adds up when you have 4-6 pumps running. An ECM on the other hand, on low speed might only use 10W.

I replaced my original PSC pump with an ECM because of noise. I could hear the motor through the piping in the rads at night when the house was quiet. The ECM pump is silent.

Lot of the house heat has changed in more than a decade since but that original Alpha is still chugging along. That was even without a mag filter on a gravity conversion with cast rads.

hot_rod

The reasons for changing iclude the efficienct bump and also I suspect the current cirs is way over-pumping if this is just a single loop 0f 3/4 fin tube. Generally a loop is 70' or so. 3/4 fin tube designs around 1 gpm.Or up to 4 if you need extra out put.

So call it 2 gpm and see where if falls on the 007 curve

I think the 007E is still way to much pump for a single loop fin tube.

I'm not up to speed on all the Taco, but a 0015 on speed 1 may be a better fit for a low flow circuit?

I like the B&G Vario where you can lock it at 9 different speeds. Speed 1 or two may do it 10- 15W perhaps.

I've been using ECM of all different brands since Wilo first introduced ECM circs. I have yet to have one fail.

Other that one I dropped🤨

psb75

Thanks hot_rod for all of the supporting data for the energy savings of ECM circulators. Waiting for the doubters to provide their data.

pecmsg

For 1 or 2 I wouldn't, it's your money do what you want!

Expenses1188

I expect to replace 1 Taco 007 soon. I have 2 of them on my heating system both installed in 2009. Reading the instruction manual at https://www.tacocomfort.com/documents/FileLibrary/CI_007e_iSheet_102-517A.pdf

I see this: "Not recommended for systems designed for constant circulation"

and this: "Green Mode: After 7 days of constant circulation, the 007e will self-adjust to Green Mode curve (low proportional pressure) for power optimization. See Green mode curve above. When the 007e-2 cycles OFF, the circulator resets to original Normal Mode curve."

I believe on my system the circulators rarely run for 7 days. Possibly never.

It seems to me that the 007e circulators need to run constant to enter "Green mode" but are not designed for to run constant. And forget their green mode settings when the zone they are on is off.

Maybe Taco needs to specify what "constant" is or maybe there is a industry standard I am not aware of. And in my opinion they could make the the 007e remember is green mode setting easily.

The green mode would probably last longer on a system where zone valves are used instead of the circulators being used to switch the zone on and off. But then it would be running "constantly".

If OP's 007 runs constantly, a 007e might save money on the electrical bill.

hot_rod

This is another option, UPSe 15-58 it has a zone valve, constant curve, setting, looks like the 7W position1 may do it.

Or keep the 007 at 78 W over-pumping :)

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

If you have solar PV with a battery and never go empty, you may not care.

Brent H.

@hot_rod

The UPSe 15-58 looks like it may work if I order the version with the flanges rotated. I assume the spacing is the same so it will drop in where the 007 was?

Thanks.

hot_rod

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1903950#Comment_1903950

you could look up dimension for both, a Google search for dimension, for example. I imagine they are very similar

What type of boiler do you have? Is it set up on outdoor reset? If so you end up getting long pump run times as it modulates supply temperature to the load,

So that difference between a 78w pump compared to a 7-10w pump adds up. You could be talking thousands of hours of run time.

You’ve got the charts and manufacturers spiel, formulas to crunch the numbers, first hand experience from hydro pros that have used the various types of circulators. Should be an easy $70.00 decision🤓

We are closing in on the end of the PSC circulators anyways

https://www.tacocomfort.com/leader-in-high-efficiency-circulators/

Joe Mattiello

the 007e is brushless DC motor with built in inverter as opposed to PSC motor which has to induce magnetism in it's rotor which wastes energy as heat-that's why the PSC standard 007 runs so hot. 007 PSC is a 2-pole motor and operates at constant nominal speed at 3250 Lossing approximately 350 revolutions every minute, and ECM runs at synchronous speed virtually no slip improving efficiency.

Further, it's inherently variable unlike PSC motors and adjusts speed based on load so it will operate from 8 to 10 was opposed to constant 80w. that's the savings opportunity. hopefully this helps

Brent H.

@Joe Mattiello Thanks for the info. From the docs, it looks like only transitions to lower speed if in for 12 hours continuously. Can you clarify.

Brent H.

@hot_rod

I have a Buderus G115/3 with a Riello burner. I am running with outdoor reset. If only it was just $70. I’ll likely change it out anyways as it’s the zone that runs the most and the cost really isn’t that bad. Just trying to make sure it will fit as it’s between a couple circulators.

hot_rod

here are the priced online from a HH sponsor

Looks like a $63 difference

These are contractor prices, you may be 10% more
the reversed flange of the Grundfos should fit

All the dimension info is online at SupplyHouse.com

Brent H.

@hot_rod Strangely enough, the reverse flanged version is cheaper. Likely order one next week.

I thought you were talking total cost with rebates😀

A small portion of my town has NG and those customers have a lot more rebate options through MassSave. But my electric is pretty reasonable through our municipal light folks so I’m good with missing out on a few rebates.

Thanks again for the help.