Short cycling hell
I’m in short cycling hell with my peerless single pipe system for a 7 door apt bldg. Boiler kicks on, within 45second vaporstat reads 15oz, water dancing in site glass, about a minute in, water drops below llwco and triggers off, 30-45 seconds later boiler kicks back on, and the process repeats. My building is not warming up as these cycles are every minute or two. I took a video and attached it here any help would be hugely appreciated. Everything is properly vented with mains and I’ve checked all the vents and all the radiators. I had the equalizer extended to spec about a month ago as it was too short as installed and not to manufacturer specifications. I thought this was the answer to keep the water in the boiler and it seemed to work for a few weeks but now back to the same old situation againMy head is going to explode.
Comments
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Please don't let your head explode: I just looked at the video and you do have a problem with pressure causing the water level to drop just enough to cause the LWCO to shut down the burner. I wonder how your return pipes are connected to the boiler? I wonder why the water in the boiler is so dirty?
Where are you located, there is a non professional that has studied this problem in detail in h=northern NJ that may be of some assistance, where are you located? Perhaps @ethicalpaul might have some insight to your issue.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Is this a new installation? Was it skimmed after installation? You mention new pipe work, was the boiler skimmed after that? I see obvious signs of surging based on the bubbles coming down from the top of the sight glass. It looks like skimming is in your future to deal with the surging. Are you using any water treatment?
What does the piping arrangement above the boiler look? It appears correct in the video, but it's hard to see. That wouldn't be my first thought on the issue, but it doesn't hurt to check it.
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sure sounds like it is surging because there is oil on the water in the boiler that needs to be skimmed off, or possibly priming because an additive is causing it to foam.
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hi thanks for the responses. This is in Brooklyn and no it’s not a new install. I replaced the block and some return piping about 3 years ago, added gorton #2 to all main lines and repiped the equalizer about a month ago as that was not to manufacturers specs. All basement mains are insulated too. Something is causing a fast buildup in pressure of the chest to push all the water down through the return, just can’t figure o out how or why. I did recently put a bottle of 8 way boiler treatment in which is why the water is pink.
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was the water line bouncing around before you changed the equalizer?
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Something is causing a fast buildup in pressure of the chest to push all the water down through the return, just can’t figure o out how or why.
The two previous responses explained what is likely happening. It's surging/carryover which isn't so much pushing water down through the return, but is carrying water up into your main.
There could also be a pressure issue that is causing some water to push out the back of your boiler if you have a two-pipe system, but take care of the carryover first.
Drain and refill your boiler and watch it for a week to see if the behavior goes away. If it does then you can add a small amount of 8-way in there, but not a whole bottle probably. Put in 1/3 of what the bottle says to put in and then see if everything is OK.
If your water has a lot of junk floating in it, then 8-way can cause surging and carryover so I always like to make sure the water is very clean before adding it….or be ready to drain and refill after it loosens up more gunk.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
yes it was and the equalizer seemed to have fixed it for a few weeks. Not sure what has changed. Currently draining the entire system, going to flush fresh water through the returns and refill with water less the additive to see how that goes. I attached a few more pics of the near boiler piping as requested.
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I wouldn't bother flushing the returns. Just do one thing at a time. Flushing the returns is likely to loosen up a bunch of junk that will end up in your boiler.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
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too late, already draining and pushing fresh water through it all. If I didnt flush the returns, the same gunk and chemical (if that’s the cause) live in the returns and will end up back in the boiler, so I’d think I’d be back to square one.
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do you have the nipple in the skim tapping pointed in a direction where it functions when you are actually skimming?
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OK but under normal operating conditions that's not the case. But if you mean your recent carryover events could have fouled your returns that is true.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
update: completely drained all returns and boiler; flushed fresh water through everything twice to get all the pink chemical out. Fired it up and now running for the past 35m without cycling off. All mains hot within minutes. Water level went down about 2” in site glass after roughly 15m of running and dancing a bit but nothing close to how it was previously. I’d say it’s bouncing about a half inch to inch. No more foam or bubbles. Maybe it just needed a rinse, maybe one bottle of 8way was too much. The near boiler piping is all to spec so I know it wasn’t that. I did have one plumber tell me the additives make the water almost “glue like” not sure what that meant but all I saw was a change in color not viscosity.
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Sounds much better but I'd prefer to hear that you are getting about 1/4 in. of bounce or less. See how it goes over the next month. You may have more cleaning to do and if you were getting a lot of carryover it will take a while to get that out of the mains radiators and dry returns if you have those.
Have you verified that the height of the top of the close nipple of the Hartford Loop is 2 to 4 in. below the normal waterline? You may need to tie a string around the top of it and wrap the string around to the sight glass with a level to check it on each side of the boiler.
The 8-Way instructions are a bit vague on dosing because they use a color indicator (which is also subject to being inexact) but they say 1 qt. bottle is for "up to 30 gals.".
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I did have one plumber tell me the additives make the water almost “glue like” not sure what that meant
That meant he is not aware of this boiler additive works.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
yes the nipple is exact as per the peerless install manual (6” nipple). We also marked it on the boiler and yes it’s approx 3” below the “normal water level” mark next to the site glass. After running for close to an hour my vaporstat finally cycled the boiler off at 16oz. Likely I will have to do some additional boiler system flushes because the water is back to being pink again. Though not as deeply pigmented as before but definitely pink meaning the chemical and other crap still lurk.
Link here is to latest video of operation after system flush
https://share.icloud.com/photos/018K9-4ySRM03l6Mm-ezb2gkA
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it should not foam. that is called priming and is one of the ways water can leave the boiler as a liquid.
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I checked it out. You are foaming and/or tilting a bit as shown by how the water in the sight glass dropped down appreciably very shortly after the burner shut off on the vaporstat cutout.
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Please be more specific, I’m not sure I understand what you mean and more importantly how to fix it!
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It would just mean that you probably have more cleaning of the system to do, due to the carryover having distributed boiler muck into the system. When the surface is foaming, it is much easier for wet steam to make it up into the system and also there is a phenomenon known as waterline tilt where the waterline tends to rise on the side where the takeoff is and go down on the other side during steaming. Wet Steam and foaming makes that worse.
Other things that make it worse are high TDS (total dissolved solids) and high TSS (total suspended solids) and high alkalinity (probably not the case now that you don't have the 8-Way unless your municipal water has high alkalinity)
It is always good to try to reference your water quality reports from your water utility and see what they say about total hardness and alkalinity and chlorides although they often give a huge range that is less than helpful. I assume the worst is probably true when they give a range.
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Thank you for breaking it down! This is my only steam heated property, it has become the hobby I never wanted, but one nonetheless. I use mini-splits in my other new rehabs but those aren't nearly as fun (time consuming), ha.
I agree in that, I think my next course of action is to let it run for a week or so and then do another system flush, rinse and, repeat. The water was already pink and foggy again after about 30m of runtime subsequent to the flushing. There is definitely more "stuff" and additive floating around that could be purged.
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No utility delivers high enough alkalinity to affect a steam boiler, and waterline tilt is not something that boiler has to worry about. Steam has enough interesting variables that we don't need to make up extraneous things for people who are trying to learn to be concerned about. The "disagree" button is right down there for everyone's convenience.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el3 -
My Peerless boiler is 45 years old and was neglected until about 15 years ago when I got my hands on it. 5 or so years ago I added a half-bottle of 8-way (still too much) to try and clean out any junk in the boiler and to make sure the pH was alkaline.
Within days I heard water hammer and after investigation the water had left the boiler and the LWCO cut out, only for the water to return shortly after and the whole process repeated.
The 8-way cleaned out a bunch of scale and muck in my boiler making the water almost cloudy. Similar to watered down "Strawberry Milk". I drained it and refilled with 1oz of 8-way per gallon and the system was back to running great.
After a few weeks the water started getting cloudy again so I drained and filled again with 8-way. It hasn't been cloudy since. The 8-way cleaned out the junk and the dissolved and suspended solids caused it to prime.
0.75oz/gallon is the magic number for my boiler. Has been clean for the past 5 years now. It will take a few drain/fills with 8-way before all the junk is cleaned out of there.
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I have used the reverse flush technique on my own because it gets so bad. Hopefully with the 8-way it will be getting better over time but I am certain I have a lot of legacy scale built up and my Peerless 63-04L is now 21 years old and needs babying……or else lol. Also, I would highly recommend putting in a full port ball valve for the drain and a Dahl (or the like) ball valve at the bottom of the sight glass.
Reverse flush……I hook up a hose with it's own ball shutoff valve at the boiler end between my utility tub and the boiler drain valve and flush and drain….flush and drain….a few times until it is coming out clear. Still lots of stuff will remain. Same goes for my return.
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What's the reason for the ball valve at the bottom of the site glass?
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It's a great little mod. Get the one with a hose thread on it and also get a hose thread to hose barb adapter and put a short length of clear vinyl hose on it (or whatever). It lets you periodically briefly flush down your sight glass to make sure that it is actually giving you a true reading of water level. Also good for taking a boiler water sample while steaming to test the water pH, TDS, TSS etc.. I went further and put shutoff ball valves at the top and bottom between the sight glass and the boiler.
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can you post a pic of your setup?
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How not to pipe a Hartford Loop when the installer doesn't read the Peerless installation manual. The shutoff valves have a drain so I can remove the cap and blow out with an air compressor ensuring no blockages.
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yea on my PB the loop is on the opposite side of the glass and controls
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And doesn't block off the skim port 😆 But I was also referring to the height on mine. The top of the close nipple is pretty much right at NWL.
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update 24 hours later; Back to square one! See video link attached. After flushing the returns and the boiler several times yesterday, the water was clearish and boiler running good. Next day; all the 8 way and other muck hidden in the system has reared itself and the serious priming and purging is back! Seems like I have many more hours of flushing and rinsing of returns and boiler in my future.
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Top of the sight glass sure looked like high film strength bubble formation from contaminants. Oil would do that. High alkalinity (not the same as high pH) and high pH (yes I know that isn't the case now) would do that. It seems like the most probable issue is oil that for some reason took a while to get into the system after the piping work you had done.
Draining and flushing is only minimally effective against oil because when you drain the boiler the oil clings to the surfaces of the boiler. Also, there was no doubt a lot of oil up in the piping/radiators due to the carryover. Squick is a product I used many years ago to help get rid of oil since I couldn't access my skim tapping due to equalizer piping job from he ll as shown in my photos. Another one I haven't tried is Steam Clean. They work by absorbing the oil so that it preciptates to the bottom of the boiler and can be drained and flushed out.
I feel your pain. It wasn't oil but the beginning of last year's heating season my system had the shtf due to my neglecting to drain and flush. I had such severe carryover in one of my mains that water was spewing out the varivalve in one first floor radiator and made a mess of the carpet. I removed that radiator and took it outside and flushed it and while it was off, I attached a garden hose fitting in place of the supply valve and flushed out the dry return as well.
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@operator80 As mentioned, flushing is only going to get you so far. The oil and gunk sticks to the surface of the boiler and the pipes.
Empty a bottle of Italian Dressing. Fill it back up with water. Dump that water. Is the inside of the bottle still oily? Yep! You can fill it up with water and drain it over and over again but the inside will still be oily.
You need to heat that water up so the oil dislodges/dissolves and floats to the top. Then you skim the top of the water off while hot and all the oil should drain slowly out of the skim port.
Like @Captain Who mentioned, a chemical added to the water to absorb the oil and precipitate it to the bottom will help.
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@Captain Who thanks for mentioning that alkalinity is not the same as pH (basicity apparently is the actual term for how basic something is) which I wasn't aware of. Whoever named that is not my favorite person.
What is the reason for your ball valves before your gauge glass?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I agree it is unfortunate terminology. You can have high alkalinity and neutral pH. If I was still using my municipal water (I'll never do that again) I would probably buy a TDS tester and an alkalinity test kit.
I explained the ball valves above between my photos. It was before I put the blowdown valve in below the sight glass and allowed me to use an air compressor to blow out the nipples going into the boiler and the sight glass, because they have removable drain caps.
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Thanks. So the buffering aspect of 8-way (and possibly other treatments) increases the Alkalinity, or the resistance to changes to pH. Cool. I think this is the last time I'll use that term on this forum to avoid confusion, but I'm glad to know the real meaning.
If you weren't aware, the stem nut on the original valves can also be removed giving access straight through the fittings into the boiler. You can use the glass guard rods to poke through there (I haven't done this but have seen it performed, it's pretty good)
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I'm aware. That's what I did before the ball valve installation (much more convenient and no draining) My system was extremely dirty years ago and it was a constant problem. I even used to wrap paper towel around one of the rods to clean the sight glass.
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I agree! I am having my plumber install a skim port just like ethicalpauls with the ball valve. The way mine is installed it’s not as user friendly so I haven’t skimmed it yet. I anticipate doing that will finally (hopefully) solve my surging and priming problems.
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I'm going to ask, because perhaps my understand is wrong, and it could easily be because even that doesn't entirelymake sense.
My understanding from dealing with my pool is if your TA is high the pH will tend to drift upwards until it settles down at some number. And a low TA causes it to tend to drift lower. From what I've seen, aeration will tend to make pH drift upwards as well, for a given TA.
If that's all true, how can you have a high TA and a neutral pH for any length of time? Wouldn't the pH creep upward?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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pH is a concentration of H+ ions at that snapshot in time.
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That explained absolutely nothing sir.
I'm not a chemist. 😉
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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