Short cycling hell
I’m in short cycling hell with my peerless single pipe system for a 7 door apt bldg. Boiler kicks on, within 45second vaporstat reads 15oz, water dancing in site glass, about a minute in, water drops below llwco and triggers off, 30-45 seconds later boiler kicks back on, and the process repeats. My building is not warming up as these cycles are every minute or two. I took a video and attached it here any help would be hugely appreciated. Everything is properly vented with mains and I’ve checked all the vents and all the radiators. I had the equalizer extended to spec about a month ago as it was too short as installed and not to manufacturer specifications. I thought this was the answer to keep the water in the boiler and it seemed to work for a few weeks but now back to the same old situation againMy head is going to explode.
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Please don't let your head explode: I just looked at the video and you do have a problem with pressure causing the water level to drop just enough to cause the LWCO to shut down the burner. I wonder how your return pipes are connected to the boiler? I wonder why the water in the boiler is so dirty?
Where are you located, there is a non professional that has studied this problem in detail in h=northern NJ that may be of some assistance, where are you located? Perhaps @ethicalpaul might have some insight to your issue.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Is this a new installation? Was it skimmed after installation? You mention new pipe work, was the boiler skimmed after that? I see obvious signs of surging based on the bubbles coming down from the top of the sight glass. It looks like skimming is in your future to deal with the surging. Are you using any water treatment?
What does the piping arrangement above the boiler look? It appears correct in the video, but it's hard to see. That wouldn't be my first thought on the issue, but it doesn't hurt to check it.
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sure sounds like it is surging because there is oil on the water in the boiler that needs to be skimmed off, or possibly priming because an additive is causing it to foam.
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hi thanks for the responses. This is in Brooklyn and no it’s not a new install. I replaced the block and some return piping about 3 years ago, added gorton #2 to all main lines and repiped the equalizer about a month ago as that was not to manufacturers specs. All basement mains are insulated too. Something is causing a fast buildup in pressure of the chest to push all the water down through the return, just can’t figure o out how or why. I did recently put a bottle of 8 way boiler treatment in which is why the water is pink.
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was the water line bouncing around before you changed the equalizer?
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Something is causing a fast buildup in pressure of the chest to push all the water down through the return, just can’t figure o out how or why.
The two previous responses explained what is likely happening. It's surging/carryover which isn't so much pushing water down through the return, but is carrying water up into your main.
There could also be a pressure issue that is causing some water to push out the back of your boiler if you have a two-pipe system, but take care of the carryover first.
Drain and refill your boiler and watch it for a week to see if the behavior goes away. If it does then you can add a small amount of 8-way in there, but not a whole bottle probably. Put in 1/3 of what the bottle says to put in and then see if everything is OK.
If your water has a lot of junk floating in it, then 8-way can cause surging and carryover so I always like to make sure the water is very clean before adding it….or be ready to drain and refill after it loosens up more gunk.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
yes it was and the equalizer seemed to have fixed it for a few weeks. Not sure what has changed. Currently draining the entire system, going to flush fresh water through the returns and refill with water less the additive to see how that goes. I attached a few more pics of the near boiler piping as requested.
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I wouldn't bother flushing the returns. Just do one thing at a time. Flushing the returns is likely to loosen up a bunch of junk that will end up in your boiler.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
too late, already draining and pushing fresh water through it all. If I didnt flush the returns, the same gunk and chemical (if that’s the cause) live in the returns and will end up back in the boiler, so I’d think I’d be back to square one.
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do you have the nipple in the skim tapping pointed in a direction where it functions when you are actually skimming?
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OK but under normal operating conditions that's not the case. But if you mean your recent carryover events could have fouled your returns that is true.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
update: completely drained all returns and boiler; flushed fresh water through everything twice to get all the pink chemical out. Fired it up and now running for the past 35m without cycling off. All mains hot within minutes. Water level went down about 2” in site glass after roughly 15m of running and dancing a bit but nothing close to how it was previously. I’d say it’s bouncing about a half inch to inch. No more foam or bubbles. Maybe it just needed a rinse, maybe one bottle of 8way was too much. The near boiler piping is all to spec so I know it wasn’t that. I did have one plumber tell me the additives make the water almost “glue like” not sure what that meant but all I saw was a change in color not viscosity.
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Sounds much better but I'd prefer to hear that you are getting about 1/4 in. of bounce or less. See how it goes over the next month. You may have more cleaning to do and if you were getting a lot of carryover it will take a while to get that out of the mains radiators and dry returns if you have those.
Have you verified that the height of the top of the close nipple of the Hartford Loop is 2 to 4 in. below the normal waterline? You may need to tie a string around the top of it and wrap the string around to the sight glass with a level to check it on each side of the boiler.
The 8-Way instructions are a bit vague on dosing because they use a color indicator (which is also subject to being inexact) but they say 1 qt. bottle is for "up to 30 gals.".
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I did have one plumber tell me the additives make the water almost “glue like” not sure what that meant
That meant he is not aware of this boiler additive works.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
yes the nipple is exact as per the peerless install manual (6” nipple). We also marked it on the boiler and yes it’s approx 3” below the “normal water level” mark next to the site glass. After running for close to an hour my vaporstat finally cycled the boiler off at 16oz. Likely I will have to do some additional boiler system flushes because the water is back to being pink again. Though not as deeply pigmented as before but definitely pink meaning the chemical and other crap still lurk.
Link here is to latest video of operation after system flush
https://share.icloud.com/photos/018K9-4ySRM03l6Mm-ezb2gkA
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it should not foam. that is called priming and is one of the ways water can leave the boiler as a liquid.
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I checked it out. You are foaming and/or tilting a bit as shown by how the water in the sight glass dropped down appreciably very shortly after the burner shut off on the vaporstat cutout.
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Please be more specific, I’m not sure I understand what you mean and more importantly how to fix it!
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It would just mean that you probably have more cleaning of the system to do, due to the carryover having distributed boiler muck into the system. When the surface is foaming, it is much easier for wet steam to make it up into the system and also there is a phenomenon known as waterline tilt where the waterline tends to rise on the side where the takeoff is and go down on the other side during steaming. Wet Steam and foaming makes that worse.
Other things that make it worse are high TDS (total dissolved solids) and high TSS (total suspended solids) and high alkalinity (probably not the case now that you don't have the 8-Way unless your municipal water has high alkalinity)
It is always good to try to reference your water quality reports from your water utility and see what they say about total hardness and alkalinity and chlorides although they often give a huge range that is less than helpful. I assume the worst is probably true when they give a range.
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Thank you for breaking it down! This is my only steam heated property, it has become the hobby I never wanted, but one nonetheless. I use mini-splits in my other new rehabs but those aren't nearly as fun (time consuming), ha.
I agree in that, I think my next course of action is to let it run for a week or so and then do another system flush, rinse and, repeat. The water was already pink and foggy again after about 30m of runtime subsequent to the flushing. There is definitely more "stuff" and additive floating around that could be purged.
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No utility delivers high enough alkalinity to affect a steam boiler, and waterline tilt is not something that boiler has to worry about. Steam has enough interesting variables that we don't need to make up extraneous things for people who are trying to learn to be concerned about. The "disagree" button is right down there for everyone's convenience.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el2 -
My Peerless boiler is 45 years old and was neglected until about 15 years ago when I got my hands on it. 5 or so years ago I added a half-bottle of 8-way (still too much) to try and clean out any junk in the boiler and to make sure the pH was alkaline.
Within days I heard water hammer and after investigation the water had left the boiler and the LWCO cut out, only for the water to return shortly after and the whole process repeated.
The 8-way cleaned out a bunch of scale and muck in my boiler making the water almost cloudy. Similar to watered down "Strawberry Milk". I drained it and refilled with 1oz of 8-way per gallon and the system was back to running great.
After a few weeks the water started getting cloudy again so I drained and filled again with 8-way. It hasn't been cloudy since. The 8-way cleaned out the junk and the dissolved and suspended solids caused it to prime.
0.75oz/gallon is the magic number for my boiler. Has been clean for the past 5 years now. It will take a few drain/fills with 8-way before all the junk is cleaned out of there.
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I have used the reverse flush technique on my own because it gets so bad. Hopefully with the 8-way it will be getting better over time but I am certain I have a lot of legacy scale built up and my Peerless 63-04L is now 21 years old and needs babying……or else lol. Also, I would highly recommend putting in a full port ball valve for the drain and a Dahl (or the like) ball valve at the bottom of the sight glass.
Reverse flush……I hook up a hose with it's own ball shutoff valve at the boiler end between my utility tub and the boiler drain valve and flush and drain….flush and drain….a few times until it is coming out clear. Still lots of stuff will remain. Same goes for my return.
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