Can a new steam system be installed in a new residential house?
Looking through some vintage Crane/American Radiator Company catalogs got me to wondering if steam is even still an option for new construction residential houses or even old houses undergoing major renovations (gutted to the studs)?
Keep in mind, location matters so I’m referring to Northeast/Midwest/Canada and other cold regions where -edited- professionals exist to install and service boilers. With this hypothetical scenario, money is no object for the homeowner. Use this image from Google as the theoretical new build house we are trying to heat with steam. 😃
From Crane brochure:
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
Comments
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To Quote Poster
"Keep in mind, location matters so I’m referring to Northeast/Midwest/Canada and other cold regions where an abundance of professionals exist to install and service boilers."
In response, if poster has been following this site it is clear this above statement is false. Thankfully, I have an existing steam heat system installed back in when there were still many gifted professionals that could properly install and service steam heat properly,
Regards,
RTW
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Obviously, installing these systems is labor intensive. Which is why they mostly went out of style around world war two time. My dream is always been to build one from scratch. Give me the check and I will be right there!!!!!!
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how much money do you have?
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I think Mr Ebebratt -ed suspicions are correct. I "copied" the posters line verbatim above, guess what, the word " abundance" was removed within five minutes
Dont take the bait
Regards,
RTW
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It's not AI, I've posted in the group before. Yes I edited the post because I didn't want to come off grandiose saying a bunch of boiler techs still exist. The Main Wall is describe as being a place for general discussions. Don't think too deeply on this post it is simply just to "shoot the breeze" and discuss with people who actually discuss heating systems.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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The eccentric homeowner has endless money made from stocks and bonds LOL.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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P.S. Furthermore, I am asking the original poster to post that they removed "an abundance" phrase that made my reference look silly about five minutes after I quoted the line verbatim
Regards,
RTW
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Done! It's now notated.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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The easy answer is "yes". It's not even that hard to install a 1 pipe system. And even though the big money back in the day installed 2-pipe systems, I wouldn't advise it because the maintenance is more difficult and there will be even fewer professionals who know how to maintain it.
I wouldn't hesitate to install a new steam system today in my "money is no object" new home. Except that I am a huge fan of ground source (geothermal) heating/cooling.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
I think a two-pipe orifice system with a millivolt gas valve would be the hot setup. Dependent only on the gas service staying uninterrupted, it would seem to be the most reliable system you could get. Properly sized, the only moving parts would be the gas valve and the thermostat.
'Course, there are indications that gas isn't going to stay as reliable as it once was, and a backup gas source would be …awkward… to implement.
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a backup gas source would be …awkward… to implement
Not if you live near a Taco Bell
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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2 pipe would give you a lot more options for individual control of rooms so tha would be the way i'd go.
don't think you'd find anyone in michigan that could do it, maybe a commercial contractor.
hot water with cast iron emitters would make a lot more sense and give you about the same heat with many more benefits like being able to modulate and zone easily.
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Or it could be converted to propane.
I have often thought about this and what kind of system I would install, but its more like a dream.
I have lived in houses with steam (first 3 houses growing up), oil fired+ my grandfather's house (coal fired), 1 with warm air (awful), and my own house for 33 years with BB hot water (monoflow). Electric heat now😖.
New England used to be over 80% oil fired so my first years working almost everything I worked on was probably 70-80% oil fired steam, some oil fired warm air and oil fired hot water. By contrast the company I was working for also had an office in Hartford which seemed to have a mix of steam, HW and warm air and the first gravity hot water system I ever saw.
Often thought about the "Iron Fireman" mini tube copper system like @gerry gill has used. I worked on one of those systems (also in Hartford) a larger system in a church.
I was very happy with my monoflow system for 33 years it was fine (except when having to bleed it 😔) Seldom ever had to do anything to it except replace the circ., expansion tank and PRV. It was a millivolt system.
I think I would go with the mini tube just to have something to fiddle with.
My HW system didn't break often enough😊
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Generally folks with budget to spare don't want to look at rads. You can see this even in older mansions where the rads were in the floor.
People also now want AC and since budget is optional there is usually snow melt.
This tends to mean heated floors off a modcon with ducted AC/HP for cooling.
I guess you could do underfloor heat off steam if you really put your mind to it.
The other issue up here in the great white north, is you can't get any cast units any more as they don't meet efficiency standards. Lack of equipment, lack of knowledge, high cost, steam is a non starter.
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you can come figure out what the buzzing sound is coming from my uft-100 that only does it at like 5 am when i got up to pee or some other inconvenient time to go in the basement and pull the cover off and see where it is coming from. i'm pretty sure it is one of the relays that sequences the circulator and the end switches that i mounted in the space at the bottom where the combi components would be mounted if it were a combi.
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You forgot the main vents, so that would be two more moving parts, and the pressuretrol and low-water cutoff, which are two more.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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It might be easier to find a house of the approximate size you like, with a good steam system and rebuild the house around it. I'm kinda kidding and kinda not 😁
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easer than finding and vetting all the contractors that you would need to build a new house that isn't a dumpster fire.
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Isn't that true, kinda like HVAC 🙄. One of my closest friends, who is a CT Yankee but apprenticed under a Japanese post and beam master. Frankly he can do anything with a pencil, square and a good circular saw (although he has lots of cool toys). It blows my mind how much work stoppage I've seen on a jobsite because they couldn't find a premanufactured door sill etc. He just makes everything, custom widows, doors, it doesn't matter.
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most new houses have very poorly installed hvac systems as well as all the other mechanical systems and terrible drywall installs and finish carpentry…
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“This tends to mean heated floors off a modcon with ducted AC/HP for cooling.”
This ^^^^ or powder coated vintage rads if that floats your boat. I move ours.
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No lies told. I follow a few home inspectors on IG who show issues with new homes. It's crazy how poorly they are built these days. $500K+ homes just shoddy throughout. I will always opt for and older house built at least before 1970.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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There have been shoddy homes built in every era.
More has been learned about building science and put into practice in the past 20 years than in the preceding 10,000 years combined. Well-built homes today are the best they've ever been.
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Of course you could install a Steam system from scratch, but finding a person capable of designing it, installing it and then servicing it are the issues. I did it in my gutted 1899 Victorian Farmhouse in the early 2000s with Period radiators.
Unless you can find such a person, I would recd that you install a multi-zoned Hot Water system with Period reproduction radiators. Same look, much easier to zone and control. Mad Dog
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Yes. It certainly can be done in this day and age. Especially with the thoughts expressed in your original post.
A form of gas used (LP or NG) with a standing pilot. And have the system designed with more modern convenience controls, and have the radiators designed with the decor of the home. There are some beautiful cast-iron radiators out there that have been refurbished, or can be purchased new, that look beautiful and can offer a level of comfort that (IMHO) does not and cannot compare to much of today's heating systems.
Below is an example of one I found on a job I thought was extra interesting.
And above is an old post from this site that shows some examples of really nice radiators.
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Hi, @EBEBRATT-Ed mentioned gravity hot water. I built that system into my house and it works nicely. I did use finned copper in the walls, so there is nothing to see, but it wasn't so difficult and the math is waiting for us in the old books.
Yours, Larry
ps. It cost far less that scorched air. 😊
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With just 10 radiators, 5 of them having TRVs I have plenty of control over rooms.
The important part being, lots of cycles and vents still need to be sized reasonably correct. You could even run TRV's on all of the radiators and use something to keep the system cycling based on outdoor temp so any room that wants heat gets it when it needs it.
Of course, you can use TRV's on two pipe systems as well. If I was building a house I'm not sure what route I'd go.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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That's pretty muchThat's pretty much what I did with my house, I live in a Mill Town or what was a Mill, Town Norwich Connecticut. my house is only 1300 ft and it was a multi-family home and it's been hacked on over the years including putting in an oversized furnace that was only ducted to the first floor. I got so tired of it that I eventually ripped it out and installed a Viessman gas boiler and took old radiators, refurbish them painted them converted the steam radiators to hot water and installed them throughout my house in a home run configuration with TRVs and honestly I just love it, It turned me into an HVAC Tech. I Must admit I got a lot of help right here back then and now for some reason, my retirement job is cleaning oil burners and doing no heat calls. Go figure
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Dear original posted
I believe long time steam heating expert Mad Dog provided you the answer to original post:
"Of course you could install a Steam system from scratch, but finding a person capable of designing it, installing it and then servicing it are the issues. I did it in my gutted 1899 Victorian Farmhouse in the early 2000s with Period radiators.
Unless you can find such a person, I would recd that you install a multi-zoned Hot Water system with Period reproduction radiators. Same look, much easier to zone and control. Mad Dog"
All the best to your project, please post final result
Regards,
RTW
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Top fed steam would be my wish with one riser and one main buried in attic insulation with Crosses and Tees feeding each top floor radiator that would also feed dry steam to the radiator below it if I remember how Mr. Holohan's drawings were made.
If there was no attic one could run the riser up one wall in a closet and the mains and tees along the top floors ceiling and interior walls that would have drop pipes down to the lower floors radiator's with smaller take offs feeding smaller panel radiators in full and half bathrooms and an interior kitchen wall, I think if I have my parts in the right places.
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If I were to install a steam system, I would start with this book. It takes you from heat load calc, radiator and pipe sizing, near boiler piping and plenty of math and formulas to explain along every step of the way.
I found this online a few years back, there were others offered.
It also explains the concept of "pumping away" with 1930 graphics :)
Here is one that is available
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
didn't you still have to buy the pump and the motor separately in 1930?
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I've never worked with steam. On a brand new install, what advantages does it give over hot water?
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Smaller radiators for the same output, less piping if it's a one-pipe system, fewer moving parts if it's an orifice or Tudor system, and much, much less likely to suffer freezing damage.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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You may not be able to find the expert and the installer in the same person but having someone contracted to oversee the entire project like a @Mad Dog_2 or @Steamhead and a proficient local master plumber willing to not only listen but work directly under said expert you might have a fighting chance. Salvaged refinished radiators would go a long way to help on cost. Design aspects of a one pipe steam system should be managable today.
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Some on this thread addressed shoddy modern building. My biggest gripe as an HVAC guy is insulation installed by people who have no clue or maybe it's no care. Case in point; I was called back to a floor heat job we did with the complaint of a cold powder room. Odd, I thought. because the room was totally interior with the only heat loss being the ceiling. I walked in the room, laid my hand on one wall, then the other. One cold, one room temp. Being an addition, the cold wall was studs on the old house brick with no top plate and wide open to the attic, turning the whole wall into an uninsulated "exterior" wall. I see too many such cases where it takes almost nothing to insulate right (vs what was done) but there is no thinking or no care.
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IMHO steam used to be the best a few generations ago when people still pooped outdoors. Might as well build a new outhouse for the novelty of it. I don’t know why anyone would choose the type of radiator that gets scalding hot then turns off then scalding hot then turns off. Ok, as I look around the room, I should add that yes, it’s immensely satisfying to get these systems balanced, and quiet and I get the fondness of looking back on days gone by. But my dream home would have heated floors or at least cast-iron baseboards, probably both. Maybe a few radiators just the right temperature placed for looking out the windows. Nothing over 200°F.
try pressing the red button
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they weren't cycling when people didn't have indoor plumbing.
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Cast iron radiators do not "turn off".
Nor do the entire radiators reach 212 except under extreme conditions, generally a few sections do while the boiler is running and then the hotter sections dissipate some into the cooler sections. This allows the massive radiators to keep heating the space while the boiler is off. The system doesn't behave like it's turning on and off, similar to a concrete radiant floor, just not as massive obviously.
My next question is, you say 200F is ok but 12 degrees hotter isn't? Can you explain please? That's a 6% increase…….
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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