Best system for Duplex I’m purchasing
Have a duplex I’m about to get under contract. Wondering what heating system would be best for this. 1st floor is 650sqft & 2nd floor is 550sqft. Located in Northeast PA so heating is important here lol. None of the utilities are split so trying to find the best system to keep my utility cost low to average but also maximizing my money I spend on the system. Ideally I’d like to have a thermostat in each unit. We are doing a cosmetic rehab/drywall work so running ducts wouldn’t be an issue.
Comments
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What type of heating is there now?
Is there a basement or crawlspace? Accessible attic?
Is natural gas available?
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Bburd0 -
steam heat. The boiler is 20 years old plus I’m doing a 203k loan so might as well just do a new system since I already have it in the budget. Natural gas is available and is $1.16/CCF. Then electric here is $0.16/KWH. Have access to a basement with 7ft ceilings & a attic that has a good amount of head room too. Also the first floor has a drop ceiling with about 2-3ft of space between the joists and the drop ceiling
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KEEP THE STEAM!
Tightening the envelope is your biggest return on investment!
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I mean it’s easily gonna cost $6k to replace this boiler. I’d rather upgrade to something more modern that isn’t gonna cost me $6k every time I need to replace it plus be so high maintaince
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So your going heat pumps.
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not sure yet that’s why I put the question out there. Looking for ideas besides steam
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I was building a 4 plex a while back. Cold climate with hot muggy summers with cheap gas and electricity. Went with ducted heat pumps for each unit simply because we need cooling. The cost delta between a cold climate heat pump and AC only is a couple of dollars and install is the same. Saved having to do gas work, venting and any plumbing.
Top unit has a 1.5ton unit, sandwitch floors 1 ton. No issues with heat. Each place has a small ERV with the fresh air connected to the intake and exhaust from the bath (so no bath fan needed).
Each unit is sub metered so they pay for their own use. More important, everybody has their own thermostat. Operating cost is very low comparable to a place with gas since there is no gas meter fees.
Did install oversized filters so can get 2 years out of one.
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Heat pumps are fine for the shoulder seasons. Once the NE wind begins blowing and the thermometer begins falling, you're going to miss the steam.
That boiler is probably 30 years old. One time investment with simple easy maintenance. Heat pumps are highly computerized, maybe good for 10, 12 years then throw them away. Few techs are properly trained, and parts can be scarce. Not a good combination for your primary heat source.
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Keep the steam as your primary heat source. Over the long haul, it costs no more to maintain and keep in good repair than any other system, and probably less (and less hassle) than heat pumps — as well as greater comfort.
Now what you might want to do, if you have the extra cash on hand, is install heat pumps for the shoulder seasons and for summer air conditioning. They cost a good bit to install — a lot more than a boiler, for instance — and they have ongoing maintenance issues (even the best of them) and a short — 10 to 15 year — reliable life — but they are "modern" and "green" and both of those a selling points.
You want a thermostat in each unit. OK. What I would do is keep the steam as the primary heat, set at a fixed, low temperature — say 60 to 65 F — where the occupants can't get at the thermostat. Then a heat pump for each unit, with its own thermostat, and powered by that unit's electric meter (I presume they will be separate?). That way the occupants can set their own temperature on their own dime and be happy, except on the super cold days when the heat pumps can't keep up.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
@Jamie Hall "heat pumps can't keep up" My design temp is 2F, at the point the heat pumps are not loosing any output. Heat pumps only working in shoulder season was the case for units 20 years ago.
Any combo heat only makes sense is if you already have something that works and costs you zero dollars to keep.
Tenants pay exactly $0 extra for comfort, will definitely pay more for AC. So the decision comes down to parts/labor to install and long term maintaince cost. New filters costs me $8 each in bulk and takes 15min to replace all which you have to do on an AC only setup as well.
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KEEP the steam heat, if you have a brown out, power surge or a nearby lightning strike the electronics on your mini splits will be fried, and then where will you and your tenants be????
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"More Modern" is not necessarily an "Upgrade". Note Brother Hall's post above. Heat pumps are NOT "maintenance free"
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
So instead of a steam boiler that could last 30 years with very little maintenance, you want to replace it with something that will cost you $15k-$20k every 10-15 years?
I think you have it backwards. It's the new systems that require more maintenance. Steam heated by natural gas requires a very small amount of attention that any handy homeowner can give it.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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if you have a brown out, power surge or a nearby lightning strike the electronics on your mini splits will be fried,
This is just flat out wrong.
Yes, a lightning strike could, but show me something electronic or electrical that won't.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I can get 2x ducted minisplits installed for $k after rebates and completely eliminate the $180/yr gas meter, Can do a Combi with hot water baseboard for $k after rebates, forced hot air furnace would cost me $k after rebates. I get investor pricing not retail pricing on HVAC
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Depends not a pro by any means, but here is some advice it could be -10F and your tenant will still have the windows open with a space heater (ask me how I know). Try to add some dedicated 20amp circuits to each window in a metallic box to each bedroom and living room using the hubbel or legrand industrial receptacle make sure you use class a fire rated materials.
If I wanted ac it were me 2 seperate non inverter heat pumps with slim duct with backup baseboard or 2 conventional gas forced hot air.
If just heating hydronic baseboard
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Yeah I was actually thinking just doing 1 forced hot air furnace and adding 2 zones may be my best bet. Upfront cost is gonna suck but is cheaper upfront than any other option I have though of. Also the cheapest to replace the unit after the furnace dies in 15 years or so
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you keep saying Short Term CHEAP!
Good luck!
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For a rentalI imagine you want AC.So a ducted or mini split would be needed in addition to a steam heating system.
Or just go all FA.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Let me just lay it all out for you to help it make sense. New steam boiler would cost $k. Then yearly I would pay $$$ for cleaning + $$ every month during the heating season for someone to go and drain/refill the water so it's clean. That brings me to $$$/yr. Not to mention steam costs more in gas per monthly than a forced hot air. Forced hot air would cost me about $k to install, would cost me less per year to heat, and would cost me about $$$/yr in maintenance.
Now let's talk about replacement cost. I would have to replace the furnace twice in 30 years compared to once with the boiler. The furnace will cost me $$$$ to replace each time. So grand total of $$$$ spent over 30 years meanwhile the boiler would be $k. But here's what your forgetting, I can invest that money and make a heck of a lot more with the furnace compared to the boiler between the utility cost savings and maintenance savings. Also I don't have to listen to both of my tenants complain about not being able to control a thermostat.
Thanks for listening to my ted talk and goodbye
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I would do 2 separate units so they are paying gas and electricity, I've had pros tell me it isn't really a good idea to zone resi on different floor levels.
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Well, I guess our OP is gone. Not surprised — he wanted to do it cheap, not do it right. And that we don't do…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
My mistake, but I assume you get that pricing on the steam boiler too. It's still the same problem, just with slightly different numbers.
Then yearly I would pay $350 for cleaning + $50 every month during the heating season for someone to go and drain/refill the water so it's clean.
For those who are still here, this is completely wrong. You don't drain and refill it every month and I haven't had mine cleaned in 5 years—this is gas not oil.
Not to mention steam costs more in gas per monthly than a forced hot air.
Source, please?
Thanks for listening to my ted talk and goodbye
Sounds like you had your talk all written up, not sure what you were asking for.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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@ethicalpaul said "Sounds like you had your talk all written up, not sure what you were asking for."
This.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
Mind was made up before the initial post.
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another one that’s been drinking the koolaid!
I can’t wait until that 1st sub zero nor easter1 -
@pecmsg At the cottage, often the temperature drops bellow -10F to -15F. No issues with cold climate heat pump there, plenty of heat. The outdoor unit does need to be on a taller stand to keep it out of the snow though.
@QuintonS Be careful with shared ducting between units. Most codes require some mitigation, add in the cost of zoning, you are not saving anything over 2 units.
The one issue with a furnace in a multiplex is that event the smallest one is WAY oversized for the load. A common solution here is to use a combi rated gas water tank feeding a fan coil for heat. If you need to add in AC, the BOM cost of that is still well above a heat pump only +resistance tank solution.
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A properly sized, installed system and ducts with an actual start up and commissioning,
Maybe 10% of the time you will see those results. 90% of the time you won't!
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Can you have a system that is reasonably sized for both -15F and typical summer usage?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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in one outdoor unit. Doubtful.
Commercially is a different story!
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In heading dominated climate the unit sized for heat will always be oversized for cooling. Since you are dealing with modulating equipment, this is not an issue as long as you size reasonably well.
That commonly misquoted 140% oversize factor in man S is the MAX oversize for furnace, not the required oversize. For heat pumps it is even less, 125% MAX. Also use a proper man J without fudge factors, so if you local design temp is 0F, use 0F not -15F.
Pretty cold winters here and hot muggy summers, heat pump works well all year around. Definitely better for cooling than the typical 2x oversized single speed AC.
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I'm wondering what is wrong with a 20 year old steam boiler that someone with a little knowledge of Steam systems can't solve for much less than the price of a "new system". But that is water over the skim tapping at this point.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan I think the OP had his mind made up that steam is outdated and inefficient going in.
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