Boiler

Oliv1981

Hello,

Which is a better boiler? Archer,Trooper twp3

The New Yorker CL3-105

Peerless

mattmia2

Probably the peerless. Don't know who makes the New yorker or the Archer? Radio shack?

Ironman

The best one is the one that’s installed and maintained properly by a competent hydronic pro: he’s 95% of the equation.

Find the best hydronic contractor and go with his recommendation.

However, the Buderus is the best cast iron oil boiler.

EdTheHeaterMan

agree with Bob @Ironman Boan on the contractor being the more important part of the job, and that Buderus is the best of the cast iron boilers, but if you are replacing the boiler anyway you should look at the Energy Kenitics offerings. they have a 🦸🏻‍♂️ control system that reduces the fuel usage over and above that of mere mortal (normal) controls systems

Steamhead

Take a look at that Archer:

https://archerboiler.com/oil-boilers/trooper/

It looks a LOT like the old Slant/Fin Intrepid boiler.

I've always wondered what happened to the manufacturing setup they used to make these boilers. There was a rumor going around that U.S. Boiler was going to buy Slant/Fin out, but we never heard anything definite. But now we see two items that seem to indicate Archer is another U.S. Boiler brand:

1- their gas steam boiler appears similar to the Crown, New Yorker and Force units, which are made by U.S. Boiler:

https://archerboiler.com/gas-boilers/frontier/

and 2- the Trooper I&O manual contains the usual U.S. Boiler hysterics about converting these boilers to gas- see page 3.

So I think it's safe to say this is a U.S. Boiler product. Note that they don't show any physical address for the Archer company- why would they not want us to know?

Getting back to the original question, these are all pin-type boilers, which are not as easy to maintain as 3-pass types. In a 3-pass boiler, the combustion products travel the length of the boiler three times, and so give up more heat to the cast-iron. Also, they do not use cast-iron pins to absorb the heat, which are difficult to clean properly. Dirty pins reduce efficiency.

Archer does not sell a 3-pass boiler, nor does Peerless.

If I were going with New Yorker, I'd spec the CI-HGS series, which is a 3-pass. It appears to be related to the Burnham MPO or EMP, which are nice boilers. The Force boiler line sold by Ferguson has a similar model. All these are made in the USA.

The Buderus mentioned earlier is a 3-pass, as are the Solaia, the St. Roch and others.

ethicalpaul

Never trust a boiler that is sold under 5 different labels. Peerless.

Of course it looks like Peerless is going to be just another name for US Boiler, at least for steam, so this opinion may not last long.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Burnham's are leakers so they want to plaster as many different names on the stuff as they can to avoid there bad reputation.

It's easy to see the way this going.

As the dreaded HPs take over the world the CI boiler market dwindles and some MFGs go out of business and are taken over by others.

Pretty soon it will be down to Weil McLain and Burnham & the Utica Clan. I thought Peerless would hang on but maybe not.

Slant Finn is gone, Smith is gone

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1855515#Comment_1855515

I haven't heard of the Burnham 3-pass boilers being leakers. Some of their V-7 and V-8 series were, but these were pin-type boilers.

ethicalpaul

I am thinking of the Independence line rotting

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1855525#Comment_1855525

Not a 3-pass. The MegaSteam is a 3-pass, and has done extremely well.

ethicalpaul

yes I'm aware. But they keep making and selling these non-three-pass boilers and putting different names on them. If they would stop doing that I'd have a lot more respect for US Boiler

SuperTech

The quality of the installation and who you choose to do the job determines if a boiler is good or bad. A basic builder grade cast iron boiler sized properly and Installed perfectly will outperform an oversized three pass boiler that's installed poorly.

My favorite boilers are from Energy Kinetics. I recommend getting some quotes from an Energy Kinetics dealer. Very efficient and reliable boiler. My second choice would be a three pass boiler, Utica Tri Fire, Pure Pro Trio, Burnham MPO or Buderus.

EBEBRATT-Ed

All I know is the Burnhams in my area failed miserably for the last 20 years or more.

Doesn't matter if they were Steam or Water they failed big time. Residential, commercial they all failed.

Rhode Island and the Boston area I guess had chloride problems with the water big time.

Had a high school with 3 Burnhams built in 2002 and 12 years later all 3 Burnhams were leaking and this was hot water. They replaced 2 of them with Buderus and the one Burnham that still leaks is an emergency spare.

The school next to it had 3 Burnhams built about the same time 1 of those is gone.

This same school system had Smith 640s installed in the 50s that lasted 45 years and still were ok but replaced for efficiency reasons.

Another school had a Pacific steel boiler on Steam that lasted over 50 years. Replaced with a Smith 28 that has been fine for 15 years

I don't think the water or the installers played a part. Burnhams don't last.

And as @ethicalpaul said if they have newer models that are supposed to be good why don't they dump the junk that doesn't last?

Burnham who we never saw in this area in the 60s and 70s (because Smith had this area tied up) came in like gangbusters in the 80s, 90s and 2000s. They must have had good prices because they took every job in all the schools.

Every school system in the area has failed Burnhams.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1855565#Comment_1855565

or good marketing to the architects or engineers.

ethicalpaul

Or their sales people were also spec writers and they provided free unbreakable specs to the architects (I don't know if this happens in HVAC but it definitely happens in the door business)

EBEBRATT-Ed

"supposed" to be no unbreakable specs on public bid jobs like schools. They "have" to accept an = but you know how that goes.

But the boiler mfg sales reps get the engineer to spec their boiler and they do that but will accept an =. So then the boiler mfg works on the contractors to bid their boiler because it is spec and the contractor who get the bid will buy the cheapest boiler he can find that will get approved usually buying the one the engineer spec all thing being = especially the price. Burnham must have had good pricing because they took over the market around here for a long time. Probably why Smith who is 10 miles from me and had the market sewn up for 100 years is basically out of business,

ethicalpaul

Yep we did a ton of public school jobs and yes, they weren't explicitly unbreakable specs, but the spec writers would find things that no competitor happened to have in their product, so the spec was de facto "unbreakable". Pretty gross.

mattmia2

The problem with "or equivalent" is that the "equivalent" never is. There are many great reasons to specify a specific product. The function and quality of the product are big ones, staff that knows how the product works, spare parts for that product. Swapping products on a government job almost certainly costs the government more than if a specific product were used.

Mad Dog_2

Long Island & The 5 Boros of NYC was traditionally Weil Mc Clain Country....Forever...When WM had the bad run of leakers (Elastometric gaskets) in the late 1980s & 1990s, Burnham moved on in. As a Uber-Loyal Burnham promoter and installer for the last 40 years, I was pretty disgusted that my Independence lasted only about 19 Years. I did everything right.

I don't have corrosive water; my boiler is manually fed (no feeder); All the steam & return piping was installed by me and pressure tested with air & held tight; I have minimal wet returns & they are all visible & exposed in my Engine Room. Why did my boiler get a hole in it? Mad Dog

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Mad Dog_2

Cause that's what Burnhams do.

Something about flue gas on the fire side of the boiler and steam on the other side of the casting. They say the Steam max and Mega Steam are designed to be the fix.

The other big question is why did there HW boilers also fail? Frequently leaked at the push nipples. And not just a one off here and there.

Push nipples have been in use for over 125 years

Steamhead

On the other hand, I see a lot of decades-old Burnham Series 2 boilers, including newer variations like the ES2 and the Series 3……….

STEAM DOCTOR

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1855673#Comment_1855673

At some point, Brooklyn Union gas, was doing lots of oil to gas conversions. I think that Brooklyn Union had a contract with Burnham. Helped out Burnham on the map, because everyone trusts the big gas company. Heard through the grapevine.

Mad Dog_2

Hey...When the staring Halfback fumbles a few times, then send in the guy waiting on the sidelines....happened when B&G Red Fox flopped...in rushed Taco...Mad Dog

EBEBRATT-Ed

Suppliers will do anything to get into the NYC market that is the holy grail. They will trample anyone they have to.

I am a long way away in MA. and I know that.

Interesting in Western, Ma where I am there are very few MFG reps. When we look to see where the reps are about 1/2 are in Boston and 1/2 in Hartford. It's like we don't exist…..an orphan.

But there have been occasions………where we used to play the game. If we had a rep for the same furnace, boiler …whatever with one rep in Boston and one in Ct and we were bidding a job we would call both reps and get prices because we had an office in Springfield, MA and Hartford, CT………..but you only got away with that once usually !!!!!!!!! LOL