Boiler Running Full Tilt, Cold House
Comments
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Is it completely fixed now? Temp rise was 11F and now it's 25F temp rise.
What do you think caused all that crud to build up?
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Pretty, but is it art?
I'd been waiting to see how this ended. Good for you for sticking with it.
Now I'm off to watch the latest episode of "Severance."
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Yes, all fixed now. Back to a righteous ΔT. It was just normal coffee grounds, but they got stuck in the tubes of the HX. We washed it down with a strong spray of water, then blasted it with compressed air and then another strong water spray.
I usually work on Triangle Tube boilers and they are truly "self cleaning" because the heat pathways are wider, allowing the debris to pass through. These are different and more torturous and thus, get clogged. At least, that's my opinion.
The burner had some build up, but it didn't seem to be of any consequence.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
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I saw in the beginning this is a Lochinvar combi unit but I didn’t see the specific model or product line.
Can someone put the rest of the details in this thread somewhere so it’s easier to find in a search in the future? This was a real head scratcher for so many of you that it would be great to have it easier to find in the future in case someone else goes through this again.
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For the most part you just need to know it is a fire tube mod con boiler. maybe knowing who is the actual manufacturer of the hx is important. My htp has the same sort of aluminum fins pressed in to it and i think they bought the same hx as lochinvar.
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Lochinvar only makes one combi, a Noble. But this one is not a combi.
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Your HTP is a Kiturami HX, also used by Laars and Bradford White in their Mascot and Brute lines. This Lochinvar HX is not a Kiturami.
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Great thank you
So I guess their product line for this particular one is the Noble and then that line can be either a combi or just the boiler and this one is just the boiler. But like @mattmia2 said its the guts that really matter here because of the way they cross brand the internals.
Got it Thanks
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@Alan (California Radiant) Forbes , did you find the cause? Cross contamination? Lack of maintenance?
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i would vote for lack of maintenance and maybe it sucks some sort of pollen or cottonwood or something in. If it wasn't keeping up in moderate weather at 40% it probably runs a whole lot of hours and 4 years or whatever of no maintenance gave that much stuff in it. what about wildfire smoke? that has particulates. does it ever change the oxygen content of the air enough to affect combustion?
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I guess you could call it a lack of maintenance. Truth be told, I almost never remove the lid on fire tube boilers. I've had to replace a couple of TT heat exchangers because the bolts broke off and also replaced the cover gaskets on some Trimax units; the HX exchangers were clean. But these HX's are different; prone to clogging, no? I will modify my maintenance procedures.
I want to thank everyone that contributed. @mattmia2 @Dan Foley @EBEBRATT-Ed @Teemok @hot_rod @Jamie Hall @DCContrarian @HVACNUT @ratio and @GroundUp (I dig your tough love). BTW, I checked low fire combustion on the gas valve there at the end, but I really didn't want to dic* around with the offset. I couldn't find Lochinvar's combustion recommendations in either their installation or service manuals and I didn't want to push my luck playing with the offset. As far as I remember, it was around 8.92% CO2.
The whole process could have taken much less time had I just popped the lid on my first visit, but I don't think I would have learned as much about what nuances there are with the very finely tuned negative pressure gas valves.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
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@Alan (California Radiant) Forbes thank you for sharing this with us. We all learned from your experience. Similar to you, we have not pulled apart too many of this type of HX (yet). Based on your experience, we will start to look at things differently. Glad it worked out for you and the customer.
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I agree @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes not opening to the HX on a maintenance unless you have new gaskets and whatever else might be needed. That's one thing I like about Weil McLain. For their Ultra gas, they offer a maintenance kit with everything you need to open and close. Even spare nuts and bolt studs if one snaps.
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My theory was to let a new boiler run two years, then open it up, regardless if it is a water or fire tube. If it is in excellent condition, go another two or more years. If it is plugged with bugs, pollen, whatever, then a yearly cleaning may be necessary. Gaskets and flame rod/ignitor on hand before you start!
If nothing else a combustion test might indicate something is plugged.
A water quality test is another good idea. Just draw a sample to see the color of the water or glycol. Let it settle to see if any magnetite is present.
The manual may mention yearly service to maintain warranty?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream3 -
The combustion recommendations are in the manual twice, and somebody shared them above in this thread. But 8.92% isn't bad on low fire if that's where it was. Glad you got it figured out. I've opened up a whole lot of Nobles (since that's the most important part of every service) and never seen one packed with coffee grounds like this- that's incredible. If you're careful, only the ignitor gasket needs replacement 99% of the time but I understand the hesitation. And none of them share top plate gaskets or burner gaskets so you have to have a whole pile on hand unfortunately; very frustrating.
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Unfortunately you found out the hard way that you need to get to the heat exchanger on a PM with mod/cons whether its a fire tube or water tube. After doing it a couple of times It's really not that hard. Its part of our preventive maintenance with our customers. Every mod/con we breakdown we clean the heat exchanger even if it doesn't need it. We create a maintenance kit at our supplier so that when our scheduled PM's are due we just reorder We never have to change the heat exchanger gasket. The gasket that we carry to every site is the fan gaskets and the rear firewalls on water tubes.
I find it well worth breaking down because you actually will see what's going on in the heat exchanger. I've had leaking heat exchangers on the top of a fire tube and found water tubes completely plugged with coffee grinds. our PM's are pretty fast because they are cleaned annually. I believe that without a doubt doing a complete PM is extending the life of our customers mod/con.
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Now i know why i should do the annual maintenance of cleaning the combustion chamber on my HTP. i have sort of ignored it for the 6 years since I installed it but i will do it this summer. I think there is an envelope with a set of gaskets that came with it that i set to the side while installing it. i'm hoping it isn't that dirty because it is only used for water heating and some supplemental heating. The schedule should probably be by hours of run time rather than just time, it looks like there is a way to set that as a reminder in the setup but the manual didn't seem to give hours for the service interval.
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Many of the boilers have run time counters in the control. My Lochinvar screen turns color and alerts to the required cleaning. I think it the interval is adjustable.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I like the look of that Ultra, but there aren’t any dealers around me and I’ve never seen one installed in the Bay Area.
Unusual way to access the HX from the side vs. the top. Have you ever opened one up to clean? What’s the user interface like? How is tech. support?8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
I open them all the time. They offer a cleaning tool for the older models. It's a pin type HX. They only want a water flush with the new blocks. If they're burning clean, The HX is always clean.
Their U Control is very easy. It can accept 3 different circuits. Min/max firing rate for each circuit. Min/max temperature setting for each circuit. Floor standing or wall hung. I'm not crazy about the Series 1 and 2. But with the revisions they've made through the 3, the Series 4 is a nice boiler IMO.
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