New Return Pipe Noise During Renovation
Comments
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post another wider and clearer view of the Ptrol's whole insides there, don't focus on the dial setting from top down, a good side view, small possibility the linkage unscrewed, or jammed(?)
very (most) likely it's low voltage, 24 volts, and that looks like spade connectors, just shut the boiler off, pull a wire off, let it suspend in air, turn the boiler back on, thermostat up high,
the boiler must not fire with a wire off,
when rewired and powered, reach in with a screwdriver and gently pry up on the down low silver lever to simulate boiler pressure, you should hear the switch click, and the boiler should stop again,
did you ever answer that the gage returns to zero when boiler is off?
known to beat dead horses0 -
OK with your 4:55 Pm post the pressure was still approaching 10 PSI. Glad to here things are better. Pressuretrols are notoriously dysfunctional, I'd keep an eye on it and see what it does.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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Something like this, there is probably others out there. I can't speak to the quality, I use more commercial / industrial type gauge equipment. You may want to put a valve between the 0-3 PSI gauge and the rest of the system, you can close the valve when not in use and to protect the gauge from excessive pressure.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Thank you. I’ll give it a whirl tomorrow when I can. I’m expecting the contractors to be here - maybe one of them can do it. 😬
when you say “turn the boiler off” do you mean the power or the gas? I’m not sure where to turn power off…
yes, gauge does return to 0.0 -
Here is an example of an older boiler where the water line (Red arrow) is much higher than your present boiler. I suspect the boiler that was originally in your house when the wet returns were installed had a higher water line. The excessive pressure was not helping any with the annoying noises.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
The test neilc requests is easy to do, you just need an appropriate size screwdriver.
Turn the thermostat up, the boiler should come on. Shut the power switch off at the Red arrow (the boiler should go off), this power switch shuts off the 120 VAC to the transformer (Yellow arrow) that makes the 24 VAC system voltage.
Remove the pressuretrol cover (I think you already had it off) remove one wire from the pressuretrol's switch inside by unscrewing a screw, you may only need to loosen the screw and slide the wire out from under the screw's head and not totally remove the screw to disconnect the wire. Bend the disconnected wire slightly so the bare wire can't touch anything when you let go of it. Turn the boiler back on with the power switch, the boiler should not fire if the pressuretrol is wired in correctly.
Turn the boiler back off with the power switch. Reconnect the disconnected wire, put the cover back on the pressuretrol, turn the boiler back on with the power switch, set the thermostat back to normal.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Good morning.
I tested the wiring. With the wire off, the boiler did not fire. When i put it back and fired up the boiler again, I put the screwdriver in and tripped the metal lever and the boiler stopped.
No issues with safety, right? With the pressure being so high?
Here are pics of the p-trol.
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I'm out of ideas,
either the pigtail is not clear, from the Ptrol to boiler chest,
remove the Ptrol from the pigtail, and blow down thru the pigtail, you ought be able to blow fairly easy back to the boiler chest, fit a short length of hose over the pigtail end, or reach in with your lips,
or a new Ptrol,
yeah, it's borderline safety, or more nuisance, but you don't want to be above 2, 1.5 is better, and if 10 gets to 15, then the safety valve starts tripping and spilling steam far worse than that vent, which IS impressive,
get control of that pressure
where are you located? and have you checked the find a contractor link on here?
known to beat dead horses0 -
Thanks @neilc.. We have one of our guys coming Friday - was just hoping we could get something figured out that may help before then. I’ll take a look at the pigtail again….
if we were to pick up a new p-trol tomorrow, is it easy to do ourselves? Seems like it’s just disconnecting and reconnecting?0 -
Typically gently lifting straight up at the Yellow arrow (with your finger tip) you can hear the micro-switch click and if the boiler is running the burner will shut off. Not much movement is needed maybe 1/32 of an inch.
Are you absolutely sure the pigtail is clear, so water and/or air will flow through it ? Usually in the process of cleaning the pigtail I flow a lot of water through it to help flush out the debris I loosened up.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
I checked the switch this morning and it clicked and stopped the boiler.
I am currently running a cycle. Once it cools down I’ll check the pigtail again before bed.
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pigtail is clean. Checked the top port to the boiler again while I was at it. All clean. 🤷🏻♀️I’m exhausted.
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Well, OK, I would put a 0-3 PSI gauge with a shut off valve and Tee connected just under the Pressuretrol, then you will know what is actually going on.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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can you share a pic of the connector and shut off valve?
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Here is a example picture from another thread. The valve just goes where one of the Red arrows are to protect the gauge from excessive pressure. If I find another example with a valve I will post it. As you can see there are various ways to do it, however only the low pressure gauge gets the shut off valve.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
You still have a Pressure relief valve as a final safety. It'll hold for another day or two. I'm thinking bad pressuretrol.
After that's fixed, you'll have to replace your blown vents.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Yeah, at this point I'm just waiting until tomorrow and keeping an eye on it. Hopefully the plumbing co will send someone who knows steam well since the guy i normally work with isn't available.
I think the bad pressuretrol is the root of all the issues here. I'll circle back to let you know what they do tomorrow…
Thanks again for all your help. I honestly don't know what i would do without this wall - you're all so generous with your time and effort and I have learned an incredible amount.
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Good morning all.
Had the plumber here. He did the routine service on the boiler, flushed the returns, checked the main, the pitch, the rad vents, the p-trol….still making noise. He said the pressure gauge on the boiler seems to be bad, like a lot of them. Even when the boiler as empty the gauge was still at 5.
He thought maybe the new/replaced piping could be causing the noise - but what is the resolution there??
Just discussed with my GC. He's going to pick up a new p-trol today - nice to get his discount. So we will see…
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It's still unclear if the pressuretrol is defective or the pigtail/path to the boiler pressure is at fault. At this point, I'd take the pressuretrol off, turn on the boiler, wait for steam, then check if steam is coming out of the pigtail. If it's not, you still have more cleaning to do, if yes it's proof that the pressuretrol is defective.
If the gauge doesn't go back to zero-ish when the boiler's off, it's either out or calibration or defective. I'd replace it, just because they're not all that expensive.
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Ok thank you. He cleaned everything again - which is the third time in a week - but I'll take a look before my GC gets the new p-trol (if i can get into the basement - lots of bodies down there today).
Is it easy to replace the gauge myself? Or do you mean adding the guage to a tee like the photos above?
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If there's a new pressuretrol coming already, don't worry about it.
If you can get a wrench on the back of the gauge & a back up wrench on whatever it's screwed in to, it's pretty simple. If not (if it's flush with the boiler jacket, for instance), just let the plumber do it. An additional low pressure gauge is nice to have, but I'd wait until your pressure issue is handled before that gets installed, just to be safe. Over pressure damages gauges.
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You need someone (and that may eventually end up being you) that can troubleshoot steam boiler issues and make actual repairs and corrections.
You have a few issues, that really are not that hard to solve, but that are not being handled proactively. So the Plumber just left and you still have a pressure issue, nice, check him off to go to list.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Yup. I'm pretty disappointed. If we can't remedy this ourselves, I'm going to have to call back the plumbing co and request the specific guy that's helped us previously. He's great. But we're gonna try and fix it ourselves.
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I took the ptrol off, ran the boiler, no steam coming from the pigtail. We’ve cleaned it three times. Can you recommend a good way to clean it thoroughly?
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I'm thinking that the blockage might be further up the path. I'd start by taking the valves on the sight glass apart (take the packing nut apart & 'open' the valve until it comes out), then see if you can run something all the way into the boiler castings, which should be an inch or so past the jacket. The port on the valves are going to be small, you probably won't be able to put a screwdriver through it, but a piece of solid copper wire (#12 house wire sized, not smaller stuff) might work. If you want to get serious about it, take the glass out & unscrew the top & bottom pieces completely, those pieces of pipe that they screw into should be full-sized open all the way into the boiler castings.
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thanks. With the exception of the last part (“if you want to get serious”) we’ve done all that.
I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned the pigtail and the top and bottom ports and finally got steam. But it also gurgled and spit some dirty water. So we cleaned it all again thinking we might have to go through a few rounds of it. The second time there was no steam again. Ugh. So now we are on clean 3 tonight. We will keep you posted. Thanks for the quick replies.
Update - some gurgling but no steam on try #3… Going to do the “if you’re really serious” option….0 -
If there was condensate in the pigtail (there should be) you won't get anything steam out of it until the boiler pressure overcomes the height of the exit side of the pigtail to push the condensate out or bubble through it. Maybe redo the test with the pigtail or the upper valve stem removed.
It looks like the 0 to 30 PSI is recessed below the boilers jacket. Its primary function is a safety device. If there is any question about its functionality it should be replaced OR another gauge added to maintain the functionality. For you to change it may be awkward since you may have to deal with the boiler's jacket to gain access to the back side of the gauge. If you plan on adding a 0 to 3 PSI gauge you could add a new 0 to 30 PSI gauge in the same area, again only the 0 to 3 PSI gauge gets a shut off valve to protect it from excessive pressure.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
We got the test to work. We did it with the pigtail removed. Also it seemed like we were over-tightening the pigtail and maybe blocking some flow. Once we loosened one turn, we got steam.
So we changed the pressuretrol. .5in/1 differential. The gauge on the boiler is still reading way high - but it was still at 5 when the boiler was empty today so I’m trusting the new pressuretrol over that….
Still getting hammer originating from the pipes that were recently replaced (the bottom pipes to the left and right of the tee).
we will have to get a plumber to put the external gauges on - it’s too tight a space for us to try to figure out.
Looks like I’ll be giving them another call. And keeping our heat off overnight until then. I’m so tired of living like this!0 -
so you have a new Ptrol?
do you notice a reduced output from that leaking vent?
and did you replace that vent for new, non leaking?
tell us again why that return was replaced,
was it leaking? clogged? in the way of the renovation?
known to beat dead horses0 -
Well as address before, I suspect in your effort the correct the pipe pitch of the wet returns you actually removed a water seal (puddled water in the wet return that is too high above the boiler's water line) so now steam is getting to places where it should not be. Excessive system pressure can also aggravate that situation.
Two ways (maybe three) to fix that situation, the first two were mentioned before. Lower the wet returns so that the wet returns are well below the boiler's water line. Or leave the wet returns were they are and add the piping near the boiler to create what is called a 'False Water Line'. This will keep the steam out of the wet returns. I also suspect that removing most of the wet return and add Steam main extensions back to the boiler of the proper pitch may also work but the pitch needed may not be good with your renovations, so the last option is probably not practical for you.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
BTW " Also it seemed like we were over-tightening the pigtail and maybe blocking some flow. Once we loosened one turn, we got steam. "
Too loose and it will leak too tight you will crack the female part of the connection. " blocking some flow " is really not an option, did condensate drain out when you loosened it one turn ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
I don’t think there’s any way to drop the returns below the waterline. Our piping is super tight in one of the corners and there’s just nowhere for it to go.
When you say water seal you mean water was just hanging out somewhere in the pipes which was actually helping keep the system quiet?
Also, the main is still steaming. So everything we’ve tried has done nothing.
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Is anyone on this thread in NJ by chance? Since you all have diagnosed my system over the course of the last 2 weeks, figured I might as well ask if anyone can actually come fix it for me! Doesn’t hurt to ask right?
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where in Jersey, did you check the find a contractor tab? there are some good guys up tri state Jersey, and others down south, (maybe)
known to beat dead horses0 -
The way that main vent is spewing the pressure seems excessively high, but until you get a gauge on the boiler we'll never know. Excessive pressure can damage some vents.
Seems like with the pipe congestion behind the wall a false water line piping is your best option, explaining it to who gets to do it may be interesting, unless they know steam systems. One example;
https://www.comfort-calc.com/Steam_False_Water_Line.cfm
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System2 -
central. We’ve had great luck with Ryan and Co out of Morristownbut I think I need to request certain guys who seem to know the system. I’ll still take a look on here…out of curiosity. I think I found Ryan & Co through here back in 2015…
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Thank you. Super helpful. I found a company not too far so I’ll give them a call Monday I think….
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@EzzyT is in Jersey, I'm nowhere near.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0
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