New Return Pipe Noise During Renovation
Hi all -
Can a leak in a return pipe cause water hammer? Noticed a slight one tonight in a connection.
We have been troubleshooting water hammer issues this week as our basement is under construction and there’s a lot of moving parts down there. Pipes are pitched ok, boiler has been skimmed, and no boiler settings or anything else with the radiators have changed.
Thanks,
jodi
Comments
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The leak wouldn't cause the hammer but it is possible the hammer caused the leak if it went on long enough.
If you have water hammer you will know it you can't mistake that noise.
If you re getting "ticking" that is probably expansion and contraction. Check the piping in that area for pitch and also check to see if it is rubbing against framing members etc. The pipe should be hung so it is free to move.
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oh I know water hammer! This isn’t as hard as they by any means, and now that I’m listening with that in my head, it’s likely what it is. We will have our contractor repair the leak today and then take a look at where the pipes touch the wall and adjust if needed. Will keep you updated - thanks!
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Leaks in return pipes usually come from standing water in that return pipe. Might there have been a sag that you are now correcting? When you say return pipe is this the extension of the main back to the boiler (above waterline)? Do you have a one pipe or two pipe system?
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we have a one pipe system. There are definitely issues with pipe pitch - which is likely what caused two leaks a couple weeks ago (that have since been fixed). I think the current leak isn’t from standing water (it’s in a vertical pipe) and just something loosening from the construction and us re-pitching.
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Here’s a link to a video of the sound that the pipes are making, for reference. When close it does sound like a slight hammer in the return but it’s rhythmic like there’s expansion. Very confusing.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/o5ieq48ywtXft1Jk70 -
Ok - still having major water hammer issues in the wet return - on one side only though. We've pitched the pipes as best as we can (which is better than it was and the system worked quietly for the last 8 years). We've insulated some supply piping that hadn't been (but our basement is much colder these days than normal because of the renovation and this cold NE winter we are having).
But I started to think….a few weeks ago, our main vent was shooting steam. Like crazy. It's not abnormal for the main to release a lot of air when we are heating to big increases, like in the morning from 65 to 69, but I've never seen steam. And until recently, our main was hidden behind a wall. So I just thought "maybe it always did this/was always this loud" because it was more contained than it is right now.
Could we have a venting issue that's causing condensate???? My only other thought is that the returns need flushing.
Any thoughts?
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Water hammer is loud, some years ago when a neighbor's boiler was replaced and the contractor did not bother to skim it he thought someone was breaking into the house type loud.
" our main vent was shooting steam. Like crazy. "
Has the pressure been verified, pressuretrol working correctly, pigtail is clear and not plugged up ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
well whatever this is, it’s keeping us awake to the point where we’ve had to turn the heat off completely overnight.
We had horrendous water hammer during our first winter here after a bad plumber flooded our system. This isn’t that but there is a new noise coming from one side of our returns that starts almost immediately into the cycle.
I will check the pigtail today. Pressure hasn’t been touched - cut in is .5 and cutout is 1, which is where it’s been since 2015. UPDATE: cleaned the (filthy) pig tail - still banging within minutes of firing. I can hear each radiator vent huff with each bang. How can I test the pressuretrol?
Is there any way to post video on here? Want to share the noise as it stands today, the main vent, and I have video of the main shooting out steam. All our vents are huffing.Any thoughts on that main vent shooting out steam?
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As far as I know videos have to be hosted elsewhere and the link posted here like you did before.
Pictures of the system may help us help you.
Add a low pressure gauge 0-3 or 0-5 PSI to the system. Was the tapping that pigtail screw into verified it was clear back into the boiler ?
The main vent may have failed, but " main shooting out steam " sounds excessive.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Excessive 🤷🏻♀️
“Was the tapping that pigtail screw into verified it was clear back into the boiler ?”I’m not sure what you’re asking.
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The tapping is the threaded hole where the pigtail threads into the cast iron boiler block. Occasionally they plug up too. The whole path from the inside of the boiler to the diaphragm (at the base ) of the pressuretrol needs to be clear. Otherwise the pressuretrol can't monitor the boiler pressure and shut the burner down when the 'Cut Out' pressure is reached (typically 1.5 PSI (1 PSI differential and 0.5 Cut In)).
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Ok thank you. I cleaned the pressuretrol port, and the port to the boiler as much as I could. I'll go back and do a better job of that just to make sure.
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Thoroughly cleaned the pigtail and connecting pipes, and made sure the pressuretrol pinhole was clear. Still knocking.
Drained the boiler and returns. Still knocking.I am half at a loss and half still stuck on that steaming main. Plumber can’t get here until Friday.
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The steam and water vapor coning out of that vent is impressive, which makes me think the pressure is way too high and the vent may have failed since it should close with the presents of steam. Do you have any radiators closed off ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Two pipe system, it there a bad radiator trap that is letting steam into the return ?
Are you going to insulate the steam mains, I would. Looks like the walls would block the heat from the living space anyway.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
we have a one pipe system. I am not sure why I said we had 2 pipe. Tired from. It sleeping much this week. 🙃
the mains are mostly insulated as if the other night. But, this system has operated quiet as a mouse for 9 years without them being insulated…0 -
No radiators closed off, and all are heating appropriately/normally.
I keep going back to the pressure too.
I’m going to take the main off and clean it tomorrow per this thread (https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/198190/steam-coming-from-the-main-vent). I’ve already ordered a replacement for it just in case that doesn’t help.
And if that’s not the issue then I guess we test the pressuretrol. I’ll update more tomorrow. Thank you very much for all your help.
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Well I guess the question is, what change from 9 years of quiet operation. Correcting poor pipe pitch should not make things worse, unless for some reason it was masking some other issue. Could 'correcting' the pipe pitch have changed the water line in the wet return pipes and now they are filling with steam ?
Steam pipes may have some slight ticking noise like when a car engine is shut off. The huffing noise from the main vent may be normal when listened to up close when the air is escaping, it should not be too loud.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
I would say the first thing we noticed was the main vent - even before it was shooting steam that day, it had gotten REALLY LOUD. We just thought it was because it was now fully exposed that we noticed it more. We corrected pipe pitch but it’s not drastically different - slightly more pitched but mostly just supported in areas where it hadn’t been.
But after seeing how clogged the pigtail was, I have to think that the initial problem was the boiler running at too high a pressure, which either caused the main to fail completely or filled it with gunk that needs to be cleaned. That combination of the high pressure and the main venting issue filled our returns with water/gunk and now they need to be flushed.
That is my non-professional guess.0 -
This is currently how the main sounds as we bring it up to temp from being off overnight (was 55° when we got up).
UPDATE: it’s spitting steam again - halfway across our basement. And loud as ****.0 -
when the boiler is running how is the water line in the sight glass? can you post video of the sight glass with the boiler running?
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can we see a general wide angle view of the boiler, floor to ceiling, from a couple angles,
and a closer shot showing the Ptrol, gage, sightglass, all in one general shot,
then another of where you're thinking the hammering is coming from, show the pipes making the noise
known to beat dead horses0 -
the closeup of pipes is where the noise seems to be originating. There is a small leak in the junction that we will have repaired this week. The pipes at the bottom of that are the pipes that were recently replaced. The noise really started after the replacement, and worse once we noticed the leak. The more I talk through this the more I put the pieces together (in real time!).
The main vent was an issue prior to the replacement, though. So could the clogged pigtail have caused too high a pressure, which caused the vent to have issues/fail, and could the high pressure have caused the leaks, and the leaks are causing condensate?
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spit ballin, and more questions, no answers,
that return pipe replacement is up in a crawlspace, correct?
you either added, or took away a water seal there somewhere, do I see this repaired pipe coming back to the boiler 1/2 way up the water heater tank?
what pressure are you seeing on the gage while running? consider adding a 0 - 3, or 0 - 5 on a tee under the Ptrol
known to beat dead horses
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The replaced return pipe is in the basement, open, accessible.
can you elaborate on the water seal? The replaced return pipes are on a wall before an elbow turns back to the boiler. And yes, the return back to the boiler is about halfway up the water heater. That pipe has the worst pitch of them all, but it cannot be improved without some major re-piping. And, again, the system has been quiet for 9 years.
can you send me a link to the 0-3 or 0-5 gage you want me to add?
Thank you!0 -
guessing you replaced the return cuz it was leaking / clogged, and being clogged, it was holding back condensate,
AND,
the original boiler had a higher waterline, above this return height, this was a wet return that is now dry because you improved its drainage, and removed a "wet return" water seal,
either drop the whole horizontal to the floor, or add a small false water line inverted U loop seal before dropping at the water heater,
Is the main vent still shooting across the basement? what is the pressure when this happens?
known to beat dead horses0 -
The pipes that were replaced are on the wet return, leaks in the pipes to the left and right of the t-juncture. The new leak is in the vertical pipe that comes out of the t-juncture. Are you saying when the pipes were replaced, there was a seal that prevented water from going in those returns? As long as we have been in the house, those return lines have been hot during the cycle.
I have a plumber coming Friday from our trusted company - though not my favorite guy - and I’ll discuss with him then.
The main is still shooting steam across the ceiling, but only when we have a big temp swing in the morning. I’ll take a look at the gauge tomorrow. During a normal cycle when we just keep the temp consistent, it’s running around 8-9. Which seems high if i remember my stuff?
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if 8 and 9 are correct on your gage, that's crazy high, you want between 0.5 and 1.5, does the gage return to 0(zero) when the boiler is off ?
Ptrol looks to be set correct on the front, there's a wheel inside should be set to 1, while you're in there, take a wire off the screw terminal, set the thermostat to high heat, the boiler must not fire or you have a wrong wiring job there, power the boiler off while disconnecting and reconnecting, don't let the loose wire touch anything when you power up to test,
either the pigtail is not open to the boiler, that sightglass port is bad, the sight gage valves are gunked up as bad as the pigtail was , , , the lil port hole under the Ptrol is also clogged, or,
or the Ptrol is bad,
What you're calling a wet return, the one half way up the water heater, is at, or above the boiler case, it was wet when an older taller, higher water line boiler was there, with this newer boiler, and its lower water line, that return is dry, and needs to get wet again,
the guy doing these repairs, was he the installing contractor for the boiler?
known to beat dead horses0 -
" the closeup of pipes is where the noise seems to be originating. " The close up of the boiler pipes or the drip to the Tee ?
As neilc stated that wet return is at an awkward height for that boiler, steam is probably getting into it and messing with some stagnant condensate sitting in it making the noise.
This mess is not correct, the precision metal to metal fitting of the union should make the seal and not require pipe dope.
To verify the path into the boiler is clear the packing nut on the stem of the valve is loosened (unscrewed) and the stem is removed (unscrewed) and one of the gauge glass protection rods is used to verify the path into the boiler block is clear of debris.
Also as neilc stated, the horizontal return should be under the boilers water line or a false water line piping installed. The false water line piping will keep the existing horizontal wet return pipes flooded so steam can get into them.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
thank you for all your help 109A_5 and neilc.
We upped the thermostat 2° above normal so the house is warm enough to withstand the overnight turnoff (so we can sleep).
The main is steaming again and the boiler PSI is 10. I checked the cut out Friday and it’s set to 1. I also cleaned the pigtail and sight glass. I tried cleaning the sight glass port, but I’ll do so the way you suggested - that seems more thorough than what I could do with just the pigtail off.This boiler was put in while we were under contract for the house (converted from oil to gas), and the pipes were behind walls at the time so obviously nothing else was adjusted. We do not use the boiler installers mainly because we’ve heard terrible things about them…so we found our own good guys our first winter here.
Now is obviously the time to remedy this as much as possible, before our contractors put the Sheetrock up. I’ll take a look at all the things suggested before I go to bed if the boiler is cool enough by then or tomorrow.
will keep ya posted. Again, thanks for all the help!0 -
you need to control that pressure,
does your gage return to 0 when boiler is off?
at the Ptrol, take a wire off a screw terminal, set the thermostat to high heat, the boiler must not fire or you have a wrong wiring job there, power the boiler off while disconnecting and reconnecting, don't let the loose wire touch anything when you power up to test,
known to beat dead horses0 -
@neilc i won’t be able to do that until the morning. I don’t want to be messing around too much as I have a sleeping 7 year old at the moment.
@109A_5, I took the sight glass valve handle off and the path was fairly dirty. I put a little brush in and rubbed around a bit to clean as much as I could. But when I put the rod in, it does stop at some point - like it hit a metal wall. Is that normal?0 -
push that rod thru a couple 2, 3, inches past the boiler jacket,
do both upper and lower valve, you'll want a bucket handy for the lower valve
known to beat dead horses1 -
You can basically see where the boiler block casting is (Yellow arrow). The rod should go into the casting at least a bit more than the Blue double arrow depth. An inch or two beyond that you are hitting the other side of that casting section wall. In other words if you put the rod next to the pipe from the boiler jacket out to where the valve stem was removed the rod should go in at least that far plus an inch or two more.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
ok that seems to track. I’ve cleaned it as well as I can.
The pressure gauge was slowly moving back to 0 after the last cycle - last time I looked it was about 1. I will check in the morning before I fire it up.
thanks again for all the help - and the real time replies. Very grateful.0 -
I’ll deal with the bottom in the morning. Gotta get some sleep now! Thank you!
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Hi all.
Cleaned the bottom sight glass port into the boiler - was filthy. Now running the first cycle after and pressure is still at 10psi.
I did not try the wiring - nothing has changed on it so why would we suddenly have issues? I just don’t feel comfortable doing anything with electrical wiring…
here’s a video of the sight glass during the cycle and the pressure gauge.
can you link me to the device that I can put on the pressuretrol to confirm if its accurate or not?What else could be causing the high pressure?
also confirmed the inside dial is at 1. Right? Weird to read…pic attached.
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What causes the pressure is the boiler is oversized for the present radiation, the radiators. If the radiators can dissipate (condense) all the steam the boiler can produce the system won't build any significant pressure. If the boiler is well matched to the radiation the system won't build pressure. As an example your system climbs to 10 PSI, my system (boiler is slightly undersized) heats the house just fine at 0.072 PSI and the pressure never climbs.
Oversized boilers are very common which is why the pressuretrol is set to a minimum, since you don't need 10 PSI to heat your home. The pressuretrol when working correctly would LIMIT the pressure to 1.5 PSI, by turning the burner off, the Cut Out pressure (Cut In + Differential, 0.5 + 1 = 1.5). Once the pressure drops to 0.5 (Cut In) the pressuretrol turns the burner back on, this cycle continues until the thermostat is satisfied.
I suspect your pressuretrol is defective or wired into the system incorrectly.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Ok thank you. The only time we've had an issue with pressure is when the pigtail needed cleaning. Once that was done, all good and back to the normal pressure. So I don't think it's the wiring. Definitely leaning toward the ptrol being defective at this point.There aren't any safety issues at this point, right? Can this wait until Friday? I'm on the call list if anyone cancels or an earlier time opens up, but I have a feeling, in January, it's likely going to stay at Friday.
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