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Need help with this old snowman boiler

Snowman1990
Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

Hello all,


Bought this house in October and it came with a new Burmham Megastem for 1st floor and this ARCO snowman for 2nd and 3rd floor. There are 6 radiators on 2nd floor and 3 on 3rd.

The 3 on 3rd connect to the valves on 3 of 2nd floors radiators.

This thing takes 40 minutes to get to temperature, I’m burning through oil. It was serviced in September.

The guys at the heating company said to keep the PSI at 1psi but from what I’m reading, it should be around 10-12psi ?


I desperately want to get rid of this because it takes so long to heat but is it the PSI?


the circular gauge almost always reads 0 never goes up.

The PSI is controlled by the grey box to the left of the killswitch


thanks

Comments

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,512

    Find a good asbestos abatement contractor you’re going to need them

    Snowman1990Mad Dog_2
  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    I actually wrapped all the pipes today to encapsulate. I’m becoming handy with my 1894 house

    pecmsg3:43 pm

    Find a good asbestos abatement contractor you’re going to need them

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,563

    40 min seems pretty long even for a snowman

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    any ideas on the PSI question? I have to imagine 1PSI is super low?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    Who the dickens said 10 to 12 psi? That old beast is steam — and 1 to 2 psig max is all you ever want. I think, perhaps, that you were mistaking the recommendation for hot water heat?

    Anyway. 1 to 2 psig is what you want.

    No, the pressure is not what makes it take a while to heat.

    Now — whether you actually have that or not is an open question. I'm not at all surprised that the old round gauge doesn't go up at all. Half of them don't work, and none of them are all that accurate at low pressure.

    A couple of quick safety checks, though. Below the low water cutoff there is a ball valve with a green handle which is closed. It should be. However, once in a while — at least once a month — that low water cutoff should be checked, and the way to do that is — with the boiler running — open that blowoff valve all the way. The water level in the sight glass should drop and the boiler should shut off. Now close the valve. The water level in the sight glass should come back up and the boiler should restart.

    Does this boiler also do the hot water for those apartments? I have an idea it does. I'm also thinking I see an automatic water feeder on the right, tucked up next to the big white vertical pipe. Does it have a readout on it to five you some idea as to how much water — if any — it is feeding?

    Now there are several clever ways to add a low pressure gauge to that thing, which — if you were to keep it — might not be a bad idea.

    However…

    Much as I love antiques, that boiler is doing you no favours so far as oil usage goes. Plan to replace it. I'm not totally pleased with the installation of the new boiler, but it's not actually horrible, so possibly the same outfit.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Ironman
  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    you’re right, I was looking at the PSI for how water boilers.

    Noted on the green valve


    it can do hot water but I closed that off and have electric hot water heaters instead. I will likely disconnect that whole part of the boiler so it stops heating the water.

    Any ideas why it might be taking so long to heat?


    I will try 2psi since it’s 2 floors and 9 radiators.

    Thanks

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,490

    PSI should be low. These systems are designed to never need more than 2 PSI at the boiler on the coldest day of the year.

    You might start by replacing that tiny main vent where it drops to return to the boiler. How long is that main, and what pipe size?

    The MegaSteam is a great boiler, but whoever installed that one couldn't be bothered to read the instructions. Where are you located?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    hmm I replaced the main vent with a Gorton 1


    and yeah I’ve been told by a few people that the mega was not installed totally correctly. Before my ownership.

    Any other ideas on why it takes so long to heat up?


    Thanks

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,622

    Where are you located? I have an excellent Asbestos abatement company...also reasonable. Mad Dog

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    You're heating up a lot of water and a lot of iron. That snowman was intended to operate warm all day long (and most of the night!) on a steady fire — just enough to keep it boiling. Then if you needed a bit more warmth, you went downstairs and poked the fire. Literally. The modern setup with a fuel fired burner which is either on or off with that massive a boiler really doesn't work all that well.

    Depending on what thermostat you have, you might try setting it to more cycles per hour — if it's set on 1. Try setting it on 3. It may be quicker and more even. It will also be less efficient, but… that's life.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Snowman1990
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,847

    Slow speed Texaco burner I think they were made by Ducane. Actually not a bad burner for non flame retention

    A snowman takes a while to get hot. I would suspect inadequate venting.

    Snowman1990
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,145
    edited January 12

    Make sure it is running off only the thermostat and the pressuretrol and the aquastat for the dhw coil is turned down or disconnected.

    It should heat at a couple ounces of pressure. If parts aren't heating either air can't get out or water is trapped somewhere or possibly the boiler is underfired. Setting combustion on a boiler like that isn't the same as for a modern boiler.

    Snowman1990
  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    thank you all for this info!

  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    in other words, underscored means that burner is too small? Another comment mentioned that it’s a “slow speed burner” , could be my issue?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    It might be underfired — but it's not really that likely that it is underfired or undersized by that much. Not to worry. "Slow speed burner" simply refers to older oil burners — like the one you have — which had lower speed motors, and thus lower speed fans and pumps. For various reasons, they tend to be less efficient inherently than newer burners, but are actually better suited to that old boiler. Which isn't that efficient inherently, either!

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,847

    The burner is ok. It could be under fired. A tech would check combustion and stack temto determine that.

    mattmia2
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,563

    I wonder if baffles were installed when it was converted. Makes a difference.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    mattmia2
  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    so I now am realizing it’s surging. The water in the gauge goes up and down quickly. Seems totally related to its inefficiency. Thoughts?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    The surging, if it's real, is not related to the overall inefficiency. The surging will be a water quality problem— the inefficiency is related to the overall design.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,847
    edited January 13

    Well surging can cause added inefficiency if its producing wet steam that could be the reason it doesn't heat well.

    Seems odd I don't think I have ever seen one of those old boilers surge.

    never had trouble with those old boilers and they were never made with skim tappings.

    Think about that!!😊

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,145

    They have a big steam chest above the water for the water to fall out of the steam before it goes out to the system.

  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    thank you all for your help. I drained the water, it was basically black. Filled it with fresh water. Disconnected the aquastat as I don’t need hot water from it. Barely burning oil now. Thanks!

    delcrossv
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717

    I know exactly why that boiler is taking so long to heat up and make steam.  When that boiler was brand spankin' new, the fire was COAL and it was located about 20" higher near the middle door of the boiler.  When it was converted to Oil Heat, the fire grates were removed and the oil burner was installed in a combustion chamber that was built inside the ash collection pit at the bottom.  That fire is 20" away from the place where the fire was designed to be.

    I actually did a job on a commercial boiler in 1979 that had the oil burner in the bottom just like your boiler does. It took about 6 hours for the steam pressure to build enough to get the unit heater fans in the building tio start to heat the space.   I removed that oil burner and installed a high efficiency oil burner in the fire door of the boiler.  That same boiler made steam in about 15 minutes and the fans in the unit heater started to blow hot air in 20 minutes. That modernization saved my customer over ⅔ of the oil usage with that modernization job.  YES his oil usage was ⅓ of what it used to be before the new burner in the door job.  

    I dont know of anyone that might be willing to take on that job today, but if you could find one, that would be much less expensive compared to a complete new boiler installation. 


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    delcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,563
    edited 1:16AM

    I've seen a couple of those fire door installations (inshot gas)and they do work great.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717

    Here is what you need an old-timer to do for you

    1. Remove the old oil burner and seal up all the openings below the fire door.
    2. Fill the old ash pit with dirt debris and sand to within 7" of the expected bottom of the flame position.

    3. Add 4' of Vermiculate Insulation and pack it down with a fire brick to form a base to hold the fire brick combustion floor. This may be done in a rounded bottom shape to make a nice fire brick reflective surface to send the heat back into the flame for more complete combustion with less excess air

    4. Top off the floor with 2000°F fire brick. (K20). They can be cut and shaped easily with a hack saw blade to conform to the round sides of the boiler combustion area.

    5. Install the new high efficiency oil burner in the fire door.

    6. Be sure to add a secure latch to the fire door so the normal pressure of combustion will not unlatch the door and cause the fire to burn outside the fire box hanging on the opened door.

    7. Be sure to include all the necessary safety limits and controls including a pressure switch that breaks on temperature rise, A low Water Cut Off, primary safety control (usually included with the new burner) and a operational barometric draft control, oil filter and perhaps a tiger loop to make the job easy to operate.

    The side arm DHW coil can be disconnected or not. As long as the DHW temperature limit is not connected to maintain a minimum temperature, then the additional water and steam in that small amount of piping will have very little affect on the amount of fuel used.

    Putting the fire where it belongs will allow you to use a smaller nozzle and still get a hotter flame, in the designed location of that SnowMan. That is where the Dead Men that designed those boilers wanted the flame to be.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    neilcdelcrossv
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,847

    @EdTheHeaterMan

    I wouldn't convert a boiler that old to firing through the door. Call me chicken

  • Snowman1990
    Snowman1990 Member Posts: 10

    @EdTheHeaterMan you are the MAN. Thanks!

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717
    edited 2:54AM

    I hear ya' Ed

    I found an L model Columbia boiler with the old original Columbia oil burner (1725 RPM) about 3 years before I retired.  The thing was well maintained and looked good.  The only problem was the gasket between the tankless coil looked like a real mess and that was covered by the front cabinet that also covered the cleanout openings and the burner.  I told the customer that the boiler was older than me (because it looked like the boiler in my home when I was 6 years old).  I removed the Columbia burner and installed a Riello with new L7224U controls to make it a cold start boiler.   The savings was 40% from the old burner and the maintaining temperature control system.  I think that the customer still has that in operation today.   

    I gave no guarantee for the old boiler except this: I would replace the boiler if it started to leak within 2 years and credit ½ the cost of the new modernization job to the price of the new boiler. Full price if it leaked within 1 year.  (then I would order a boiler less burner and save a couple hundred on the new boiler cost)


    I have a feeling that this old snowman boiler may outlast the both of us if the OP can get someone to help him save $$$ on operating it.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    delcrossv