Used Diesel While We Wait for Delivery = Black Smoke

ksand2994

Hello!

Our house was built in 1955 and we are not used to having a in ground oil furnace. It is located (kinda) in the middle of the house. Only blows the air out in that one spot. Our oil tank is outside on the side of the house.

We have a delivery for heating oil to be delivered in a couple days but ran out. We used Diesel Fuel to substitute while we wait. It ran for a minute and then stopped. Then we pressed the red button a couple times when all the sudden it started filling up the house with black smoke. We panicked and turned it off. Waited a bit, turned it back on and it is running fine…. I had a heart attack.

What would cause this? Should I have someone come out and clean the lines? I almost don’t want to use the furnace again cause it was scary.

Thanks in advance.

Steamhead

Air in the oil line, maybe?

Have it serviced ASAP.

Jamie Hall

How cold is it where you are? If it is really cold, you may have used road diesel but slightly modified for cold weather running. That really requires a fairly complete adjustment of the combustion, as it is somewhat less viscous — particularly when it's cold.

That's not a problem "down south" (like in most of the US) but it could be a factor.

Pressing the red button more than once is, as you have discovered, not recommended. What happened was that the firebox had gotten a fair amount of unburned oil in it from the failed ignitions, and when it finally did fire… well, you got black smoke. Lots of it.

ksand2994

Thank you!

We are in Southern Maryland where it’s in the 20s to 30s at the moment. We just went to the gas station and filled up a couple 5 gallon jugs of Diesel and put it in there. I researched beforehand and thought it would be fine as an emergency fix while we wait for the heating oil to be delivered. Now I’m wondering if I should have someone come out and service it. We just bought this house a year ago so this is our first time having to deal with this kind of furnace.

Steamhead

Usually this is fine. I used to do that when I burned oil, and the tank ran out. Have it looked at.

Where in Southern MD? Maybe "Deep in the Heart of Waldorf"?

ksand2994

Afraid I’m even further south than that. All the way at the end 🥲

EBEBRATT-Ed

When the tank went empty you probably got some air in the line but you should try and avoid run outs as you can get sludge in the oil line, oil filter, pump strainer or nozzle. Check the tank and if you get that low shut it off then get diesel and add it before the tank gets low.

mattmia2

the burner and furnace should be serviced by an oil burner tech annually. btw that is called a floor furnace.

maybe it lost its prime and was pumping enough oil to dribble in to the chamber but not spray and ignite for the couple resets. the correct way would be to prime the pump in to a container.

HVACNUT

A cozy place like that, I would use ductless heat pumps and only use the floor furnace when needed. After it's professionally serviced of course.

Electric water heater?

ksand2994

We have had a couple guys come and give us a quote to tie a new heater to the existing unit outside and it wasn’t too bad price wise. We even talked about keeping the floor furnace and getting a heat pump or getting propane….

That leads to my other problem. The floor furnace and electrical panel are original to the house. In order to get anything new hooked up we would need to update the panel. Which is expensive. Picture for reference. 😊

Jamie Hall

A not uncommon problem. That panel is really is probably maxed out…

Why do you need to replace the floor furnace? Just because it got annoyed once doesn't mean that with some servicing it won't work — but if it has a bad heat exchanger or other problems like that, maybe it does. You need a good honest tech. to look it over and check it — not a salesman.

ksand2994

I have never really cared for the floor furnace for a couple reasons. 1. It only blows heat from that one spot in the house. 2. It feels expensive to fill the oil (roughly $1200 for our 275 gallon tank). 3. She is quite loud when she turns on. I have gotten used to it for the most part, but I wouldn’t mind a quieter alternative.

I am going to look into getting someone out here to take a look at it. I’m sure she probably needs a good clean.

Thank you all for the help. It ran just fine all night and we were nice and warm.

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1833158#Comment_1833158

That's a "split-bus" panel, where you have to turn off all six breakers in the top group to de-energize the entire house. Probably dates back to the 1950s, not sure it's Code now.

EBEBRATT-Ed

It was legal up till recently and may still be legal.

They recently changed the code regarding the 6 disconnect rule and I am not up on the change they made.

It used to be as long as long as you could kill the power with not more than 6 hand movements you were good.

That's an old Wadsworth panel.

Federal Pacific "the breakers that never trip" used to make a lot of those split buss panels. I think they were popular for electric heat houses.

Never really understood why they used them or what the reasoning was.

Well, I guess now I know. Found this

A split bus electric panel is an electrical circuit breaker panel that divides the main power into two separate circuits: one for the main power to 240-volt large appliances and one for the 120-volt branch circuits12. It is typically used in home wiring applications to provide more flexibility and safety when working with electrical wiring1. Split bus panels are electrical panels with two bus bars. The top bus bar feeds electrical current to the main circuit breakers supplying power to the major appliances. One circuit breaker on the top bus bar feeds power to the lower bus bar that supplies power to general lighting and outlets in the home2

mattmia2

split bus panels are used for cost. up to 60 a breakers and fuses are commodity items and much less expensive than 100 a + breakers and fuses. mostly used in housing developments where someone is trying to save $50 per house on the panel. they can make sense where you have a lot of subpanels or outbuildings or big loads. looks like the 2023 code requires an outdoor service disconnect and essentially requires only one disconnecting means in each cabinet so split bus panels would no longer be allowed in new installations as service equipment.

when the 2023 code gets adopted in your state and if the state doesn't alter that part

HVACNUT

There's a breaker marked A/C on the panel cover. I think it's the 2P 15A with the foil tape near it. Is that being used?

What's the approximate square footage of the heated space, and how many rooms would you think need their own head on a ductless system? There are some low BTU, high efficiency ductless systems that the 2P 15 amp breaker would suit just fine.

LRCCBJ

That leads to my other problem. The floor furnace and electrical panel are original to the house. In order to get anything new hooked up we would need to update the panel. Which is expensive. Picture for reference. 😊

It appears from the panel cover that you can "twin" positions 9 and 16. For reference to a "twin" see position 17. Two 1/2 size breakers are used in one position.

The larger question is whether you can obtain breakers for it.

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1833532#Comment_1833532

But you can't really put big loads on the lighting sections (unusual that it has 2 lighting sections instead of one, I've never seen that before), big loads should go on the main section although they could possibly go on a lighting section if you are careful about your load calculations. You could feed a subpanel off the main section but at that point you might as well just replace it with a new main breaker panel.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I can remember changing 60A service and panels to 100 amp breaker panels for $500-550 back in the day and 200 amp for less than $1000.

Not any more in the last 10 years prices have gone through the roof. Especially with combination GFCI & AFCI single pole breaker going for $60. Plus the outdoor disconnect.

ksand2994

The house is roughly 1600 sq foot. But 300 of that is the sunroom that is equipped with a mini-spilt. There are 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms.

I would assume the A/C is being used for our regular A/C system.

There is also another separate box labeled “camper”. We don’t use it so it’s turned off.

I don’t know the first thing about electrical things. I’ll be honest.

I was told by the heating company that I would need to replace everything if I want to add anything new.

Jamie Hall

Yor heating company, for once, wasn't kidding. The problem is this: if you touch something electrical, what you replace it with or any repair has to be done according to the current code. If you leave it alone and it was legal when it was done, you're good to keep it.

You'd have to bring that panel up to current code if you did anything with it — like adding a new circuit — and that is going to be well into five figures…

DCContrarian

The last time I bought fuel oil the invoice said "#2 Diesel."

LRCCBJ

There is also another separate box labeled “camper”. We don’t use it so it’s turned off.

This would give you the opportunity for a space in the main panel. This breaker comes off a breaker in the main panel. And, yes, you can change circuits in the existing panel without completely "bringing it up to code".

The heating company has no idea what they are talking about.

Jamie Hall

I should have been more exact. You can change circuits — up to a point. You cannot double tap. You cannot increase the capacity on a single bus, but you can switch breakers around on each sub buss. You cannot add breakers. You can add a pass through panel, like that 'camper" panel, but it must go through one of the main breakers. If it is tapped off one of the panel breakers, that's the only thing you can tap off that breaker so it doesn't add any capacity.

So yes, there is stuff you can do.

LRCCBJ

 You cannot add breakers. 

This is incorrect. This panel accepts twin breakers and there are a couple of positions where this can be done.

Jamie Hall

Um. Well, maybe. You still cannot exceed the capacity of the sub buss… but that could avoid double tapping, I guess.

LRCCBJ

Of course you can exceed the capacity of the sub buss…………they are protected by 60A breakers and you absolutely do not need to stay below the 60A for the combined rated breakers on the sub buss.

It's no different than a 100A panel with breakers totaling 140A. Nobody expects all individual circuits to be at max at any time. This solution works everywhere.

mattmia2

You can not exceed the capacity of any of the busses, the main bus or the lighting busses. The load is determined through load calculations, not by adding the value of the overcurrent protection. 14.4 kw isn't a lot if there are the small appliance and laundry circuits and a few fixed appliances on there.

LRCCBJ

Load calculations are nebulous at best. You might have varying loads on any of the circuits. That's why each circuit has a rating for the circuit breaker. Nobody ever knows when they will exceed the rating of the breaker unless it is a dedicated load for one device.

The overcurrent protection is there to prevent any catastrophic problem.

Plenty of panels have individual circuit protection that, when totalled, exceed the protection of the main breaker. I have a 200A panel in this place. With 40 breakers, I'm guessing the total is over 300A!

Check out some older FP panels……………they don't even have a main breaker!!

Jamie Hall

codes change

LRCCBJ

He does not need to comply with new construction. That's the point.

TKPK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1833671#Comment_1833671

so much?

I just had a 200A federal pacific panel replaced by a licensed electrician (with me as his helper) for barely four figures parts/labor. If you mean with the whole heating system then 👍

We also Installed a tankless water heater as part of the deal…not parts, just electrical connect

EBEBRATT-Ed

Just to be clear.

Let's say you have a 200amp panel with a 200-amp main breaker. Let's say you add up the sum of all the branch breakers and they total up at 220 amps/phase. Is that legal??

Of course, it is and there is nothing wrong with it.

The only thing the code cares about in that instance is a load calculation. The code tells you how to calculate the load calculation and it also gives an alternate method. (You can use whatever one gives you the smallest load)

I changed 3 services in a 3 family once took out 3 60s and installed 3 100-amp panels 1 for each of the apartments.

Yet the wire coming down the house into the 3 gang meter socket was 200amp wire. How is this allowed??? As with (3) 100 amp panels the wire could technically be allowed to pass 300 amps (3 100 amp panels)

It is allowed because the load calculation allows it.

You can change or add circuits to any panel that has the room available and install a sub panel off it if you want.

Another job was a new 125 amp service.

The load was a normal house load including an electric water heater, 3ton air conditioner, electric dryer and electric stove. The calculation came out to around 85amps.

The code knows from studies that have been done for eons that not everything is turned on at once. Thats what the load calcs are based on.

You have to be able to differentiate what is a continuous load and a non-continuous load and what kind of building and the usage of the building. In a house in my personal opinion I usually consider HVAC equipment to be a continuous load and in most cases that is the only continuous load in a house. IMHO

A lot of electricians don't agree with me on that.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@tkpk

Did he just swap the panel? No outside disconnect? Do you have 2 ground rods? Was it inspected?

TKPK

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1833784#Comment_1833784

it was just the distribution panel the first time and it was permitted and inspected.

the insurance companies in FL are going crazy trying to shed customers and made us replace the main disconnect which was also fully permitted and inspected and was about the same as the distribution. Barely 4 figures a second time.

My electrician said it was a complete waste because FP main disconnects don’t have any issues, just the breakers in the distribution panel. He did not want to do it but our insurance was going to be canceled if I did not do it. Unfortunately I was not able to help the electrician the 2nd time which raised the cost because he had to be on-site 3 times for permitting, project and inspection.

The only reason I found out about the FP problem on my 1978 FL house was because I tried to buy discontinued breakers for a new tankless…unobtanium. Now everyone in the development is having to replace before they can sell or renovate.

Not sorry because from what I read they were (are) dangerous.

Jamie Hall

codes change

In terms of load calculations — quite right. In a sense. What the main point is is that if you have a breaker (or fuse), no circuitry served by it before the next interrupting device can have a rating less than that device. So, for instance, if you have a 200 amp main breaker, your wiring or the busses inside a fuse box must all be rated for 200 amps or more.

There are tables and formulae to help determine what the main disconnects or disconnect box buss bars should be rated for, and these are in the code.

Nowhere does it say — and I didn't mean to imply, though I can see I may have — that the disconnects downstream of a disconnect can't have more total capacity — they can and in fact, frequently do. Sometimes a lot more. You can, in principle, have as many as you like — so long as none of them, individually, exceed the upstream disconnect or the ampacity of the wiring and busses.

It's really not that hard to see, if you think about it. Any disconnect device is intended to protect the equipment it serves — wiring, busbars, whatever, so it must have a smaller ampacity rating than that equipment — until you get to the next disconnect, which, of course, is rated to protect whatever it is connected to. And so on…

For instance, a circuit breaker box may have busbars in it which are rated for 100 amps. The main disconnect for that box, then, must be 100 amperes or less — but you could perfectly well have 24 20 amp breakers in there if you wanted, each serving a circuit with 12 gauge wire. If all the circuits were energized at their full capacity — that would be 480 amperes, which the busbars wouldn't like much — so the main disconnect would blow.

mattmia2

except for the tap rules and rules about sizing service conductors that account for some of the loads not being simultaneous for long and assumptions that the load is somewhat balanced and the neutral can be smaller and rules that let you use the next bigger standard size of overcurrent protection if the ampacity is not a standard size and 2 chapters of various other rules about sizing service and branch circuit conductors.

the code about calculating ampacity changes very little, it mostly gets minor additions to fix specific situations

side unrelated note. fun that i had to go to the full electrical code to get anything about calculating conduit fill beyond a table.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@mattmia2

Almost impossible to find what you need in the book now. But I don't have the patience. Since 81' when I got my license, the book has more than doubled in size and the print is smaller so it is probably x4.

Yeah the wire fill for conduit is in the back.

Things were a lot simpler in the old days.

Some guy once installed a panel on a ceiling. Why? because the code didn't say you couldn't. So that added to the book. No common sense.

pecmsg

roughly depending on the local codes you are allowed 150 - 200 % above the main breaker capacity?

The main breaker is to protect the feeders!

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1833958#Comment_1833958

i have the 2003 and 2015 michigan residential codes and the 2015 is 3x the size of the 2003. a lot of things that were left to install following the manufacturer's instructions are now spelling out those instructions in the code.

ChrisJ

The only thing I recall is only being able to draw a certain amount from one location on the bus. And that depends on the panel box. So one large breaker could max out one or two locations on the bus depending on the design but not the entire panel.

Meaning on my QO panel the left and right breakers pull from the same locations on the bus so those two cannot exceed some rating....I don't recall what it is for my panel but it's something like 100a or 150a for my 100a panel