Ban on Gas Instant Hot Water Heaters?

Long Beach Ed · January 5

Anyone know anything about this? The links below are clickable.

The New York Times reported, and Zerohedge elaborated:

In a significant regulatory shift that took place quietly the day after Christmas, the Biden administration finalized new climate rules targeting natural gas-powered instantaneous water heaters.

The Department of Energy (DOE), which traditionally issues a press release for such regulations, chose not to announce these changes publicly, raising eyebrows across various sectors.

Old_Guy · January 5

I used to automatically assume that every time I saw a lunatic story like that, it was just satire from the "Babylon Bee" - and I was usually right. But given government actions around the globe over the past couple of years, I can't simply assume that anymore…

Jamie Hall · January 5

You are, I presume, somehow surprised? I don't read it as a ban, however. although whether manufacturers can or will upgrade their equipment to meet the standard is another question.

Hot_water_fan · January 5

@Long Beach Ed can you share the NYT article link please? I couldn’t find it and your text seems lifted from a different article.

It looks like it targets non-condensing tankless heaters.

Jamie Hall · January 5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832102#Comment_1832102

The link goes to the EPA draught ruling — somewhat more reliable than media reporting. That said… it doesn't actually outright ban non-condensing tankless water heaters. What it does do, however, is set a minimum efficiency rating for tankless water heaters. Cleverly, that rating is set so high that only condensing units operating with cold water inlet conditions can match it. So it amounts to a ban, without being a ban… clever.

I notice in another article (can't find it again) that Rinnai has simply said they can't meet it with their non-condensing line, and aren't going to try and are going to just scrap the plant they just built to make them. They are a bit coy about whether they plan to manufacture condensing units in the US, but I get the impression that they will be imported instead, if they are available at all.

Long Beach Ed · January 5

Just don't take my $ 700 gas hot water heater tanks away! I'll always need new ones every 15 years.

jumper · January 5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832162#Comment_1832162

ditto. Instant heaters are more oversold than rooftop HVACs.

DCContrarian · January 5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832162#Comment_1832162

Just replace the anode every five years and they last forever.

oreo123 · January 5

https://www.zerohedge.com/energy/biden-quietly-bans-most-gas-powered-tankless-water-heaters

ChrisJ · January 5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832196#Comment_1832196

I replaced mine at 5 years and it was still 80% there and the tank still leaked at 9 years old so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you.

Of course mine was like $1500 and is power vented. I think I paid 2 large for the 2nd one.

ethicalpaul · January 5

I couldn't find the article on NYT. If someone can link me to it i can post a gift link that will let everyone read it. I did see a couple typical fear-mongering articles from Fox News and the NY Post

oreo123 · January 5

Would this also apply to combi wall hung units?

The units they want to ban are more efficient than self standing tanks.

The stand alone water heaters that have the built in heat pumps - when there is a big draw off for say a back to back shower is there "back up" electric heaters which would draw a lot of current?

ethicalpaul · January 5

Most of them (all of the 240v ones) have a resistive element that can be used when demand is high. I have mine disabled in the settings which is easy to do (Rheem).

There are some 120v ones starting to appear and if they have a resistive element it must be smaller, consult their owners' manuals

Jamie Hall · January 5

try this:

Energy Conservation Program: Energy Conservation Standards for Consumer Gas-fired Instantaneous Water Heaters

Hot_water_fan · January 5

It seems dishonest to claim to quote the NYT and the text comes from zerohedge.

fentonc · January 5

@oreo123 - I have a bradford-white 50 gallon HPWH, and it has the normal resistive heating elements for an electric tank water heater, in addition to a 4500 BTU/hr heat pump on it. It just uses a normal 30A circuit. We've found that it's fine to leave it in heat pump-only mode for our 3-person household (usually only 2 back-to-back showers though), but it also supports a few hybrid modes that can even do a higher recovery rate than a normal electric tank because it can engage the heating elements and heat pump.

I believe they also make 15A/240V versions which just use less resistance heating, as well as 120V/15A versions that don't have resistive heaters at all, but instead have 12,000 BTU/hr heat pumps, and store the water at a higher temp and use a built-in mixing valve to effectively increase the capacity.

delcrossv · January 5

Somehow I think the new Administration will revisit this. With Chevron gone, I'm not sure the agency even has congressional authority to regulate these.

I kinda doubt this will stick.

Long Beach Ed · January 5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832231#Comment_1832231

Attribution clarified. Reference the source links.

Long Beach Ed · January 5

I'm surprised they went after the tankless heaters when the tank ones are usually less efficient. Many more of the tankless are imports made abroad. Maybe that has something to do with it?

Jamie Hall · January 6

The link I posted there was from the EPA.

Jamie Hall · January 6

What's going to be fun is when people decide to replace a gas tankless with an electric one… and find out what is involved in getting enough electricity to it…

Oh well. I keep saying this, but if you think we have some odd goings on on this side of the pond, take a look at our friends in the UK… you ain't seen nothing yet.

Hot_water_fan · January 6

What's going to be fun is when people decide to replace a gas tankless with an electric one… and find out what is involved in getting enough electricity to it…

People already install tankless electric and (unless you’re short on space) I will never understand it. The tankless marketing is so strong.

The link I posted there was from the EPA.

Obviously I was not talking about you.

oreo123 · January 6

here is the govt link to it

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/giwh-ecs-fr.pdf

Kaos · January 6

Never understood non-condensing tankless, the whole point of these units is to be more efficient than a tank. For the couple of extra dollars, why not get a more efficient unit? I know some people don't want to deal with condensate, but not that big of an issue.

Waher · January 6

It depends on the installation: some people can’t install new gas/electric service to meet the requirements or provide adequate exhaust/make-up air without substantial financial hardship for the initial installation cost so they go with the equipment that requires the least additional work even if the operating/lifecycle cost is higher.

Imagine a perfectly maintained home with knob and tube wiring requiring a service upgrade in a rural area. That’s not easy.

GGross · January 6

For me in my area this is practically a non-issue. I sell equipment, I have never sold, and never seen a non-condensing tankless water heater in my region. That being said the obvious result from making them unavailable is that the prospective non-condensing tankless customer will just purchase a "less efficient" tank style heater because they are clearly looking for something with less expensive upfront cost. I'm generally not opposed to efficiency regulation, but off the cuff (skimmed a few pages but not reading the whole thing) this feels like a ton of wasted time for very little realized improvements for anyone.

Long Beach Ed · January 6

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832352#Comment_1832352

Some have said the goal of this regulation is to "test the waters"and make inroads into petroleum fuel regulation on private properties. Previous non-legislative bans of this type have been overturned by the courts.

DCContrarian · January 6

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832327#Comment_1832327

If you read the text of the regulation linked to above, it says:

"The Energy Policy and Conservation Act, as amended (“EPCA”), prescribes energy conservation standards for various consumer products and certain commercial and industrial equipment, including gas-fired instantaneous water heaters, which are a type of consumer water heater. EPCA also requires the U.S. Department of Energy (“DOE” or the “Department”) to periodically review its existing standards to determine whether more-stringent standards would be technologically feasible and economically justified, and would result in significant energy savings."

So in order for the DOE to enact a standard it has to :

be technologically feasible
be economically justified
result in significant energy savings

That doesn't seem crazy.

The ECPA was enacted in 1975, signed by President Gerald Ford. It passed the Senate 60-25 and the House 255-148. So this isn't some new law nor some partisan agenda item. It's been around for 50 years.

Ban on Gas Instant Hot Water Heaters?

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