Is this water hammer? I just moved and this noise is driving me insane

maroon

Hello everyone,

I just moved into a new apartment a mid-December. The apartment is run around steam heat (and 1 electric baseboard in the kitchen), with an exposed vertical pipe and 1 pipe steam radiator in the both the living room and the bedroom. A few days after I moved in, at the beginning of a cold snap, the vertical pipe in my bedroom started making this awful racket.

A video of the noise issue

A picture of the radiator under the cover is below.

It does this for 15-20 minutes, every ~2 hours, around the clock. 12:30am, 2:30am, 4:30am, etc. In the morning, sometimes the time between is as short as an hour. It started at 4am this morning for 20 minutes and was at it again at 5:30am, didn't stop until after 6am. I can't get a good night's sleep and it's basically unlivable at this point. This is a small 1 bedroom unit in a condo, so even with my bedroom door closed, this noise reverberates throughout the apartment and I can hear it in my living room while trying to sleep on my couch, through $150 sleepbuds playing white noise.

A boiler tech came by yesterday with the building management's super and made sure the radiator valve was open all the way and the radiator pitched appropriately (it is at 1/8"). Replaced a vent in the main boiler, but the noise still persists. He wants to check the radiators on the units above me (I am on the first floor, apparently the boiler hits me first) to make sure they are open, but no one was home, so I have to wait until they can get in there. My landlord is supposed to be coming at some point to put insulation around the vertical pipe to help muffle the sound (to their credit, they've been responsive and are lovely people, also they only bought this condo unit like a month before I signed the lease, so not an instance of a shady landlord not disclosing an issue, they also had no idea).

But like, what is this noise? What does it signify? What are some potential solutions I can suggest if the management company comes back and tells me the boiler guy couldn't do anything or fix the issue? What kind of insulation would help muffle the sound the best? When I looked up water hammer noises, most sounded like a big boom. While this is like a child banging on pots. As far as I can tell, it doesn't happen right when the boiler comes on. The first radiator that comes on is the one in the living room, when air begins coming out of the air vent. Then air begins coming out of the bedroom vent like 15 minutes later. And then 15 minutes after that, it sounds like a waterfall begins in the vertical pipe (it's the "background noise" in the video) and that's when the noise begins and it doesn't stop until the water stops.

I can't move. I just moved in and my lease goes until the end of August and besides, moving in this area is so expensive because you basically have to pay 4x the rent upfront, which is ~$10,000. I won't be able to save that again for several more years. Plus I love everything else about the apartment…but this pipe is wearing me down. I'm just so distraught right now.

KC_Jones

Sounds like hammer to me.

Hammer is steam encountering pooled water in a pipe or radiator and slinging some of that water into the next thing it encounters like a pipe elbow, or end of a radiator. So, there is a pitch or sag issue somewhere that is pooling water and causing this. It could be hidden in a floor/ceiling in a horizontal pipe run of some kind.

The insulation sounds good and all, but the sound travels through the pipes and can resonate all over, so it may just be a waste of time. It can be a challenge to locate these issues as the steam moving the water can moving it a distance and make sounds in one place, but the issue is almost certainly before that spot, how far before that spot is the question.

ethicalpaul

They aren't going to solve this by looking at other apartments' radiators. The boiler is surging or as @KC_Jones said there is a low spot in the pipe somewhere.

Respectfully to the boiler tech, they should know this, but radiators are a lot easier to show up and look at than the pipes are. I wish you good luck. There have been people on this forum in your situation whose only choice was to move.

jesmed1

Where are you located? There are a number of steam pros on this site in the tri-state area who could probably diagnose it correctly. If I were you, I'd pay one of them from my own pocket to come out and find the problem. If it's boiler surging or a sagging pipe, those can be fixed. Then negotiate with your landlord about getting reimbursed, or do that first.

It may cost you, but not as much as having to move, and your sanity is worth more than money.

maroon

Thanks, everyone! Well, does sound like it's a hammer and system issue with the pipes and I guess after looking at the other radiators to eliminate the obvious, bigger decisions will have to be made.

I'm actually in Boston, MA and happy to have someone look on my own, I'll see what they come back and say and if it's no good, try to negotiate with management about bringing in someone for a second opinion. If they're resistant, I guess I'll have to try to last the year and then go back to living with a few roommates so I can afford to move out sooner. It's such a bummer, it's my first place on my own. I was so happy.

jesmed1

Ask @New England SteamWorks if he can recommend someone in Boston. I think he's in Foxborough.

You will not last a year with that racket, so don't torture yourself. Get it fixed pronto. It will cost some $$ up front, but you will save your sanity and be able to enjoy your new home.

Jamie Hall

In the Boston area, see if you can persuade Ryan at @New England SteamWorks to take a look.

ethicalpaul

Well the problem (besides the cost) is getting building owner's approval to have work done on the building outside of the owner's contractor

jesmed1

That is true, but identifying the cause of the problem is more than half the battle. If the boiler is surging and/or headers are incorrectly plumbed, those can be diagnosed without touching anything.

So hopefully a steam pro can find the problem without having to open up walls or ceilings. I'd pay out of pocket just for a pro to look. If he does find an obvious problem, then the renter can negotiate with the landlord about who fixes it and who pays for it.

jesmed1

As an example of hope for @maroon, here's a recent example of a resident steam pro finding a steam problem that had apparently stumped other contractors, without having to open any walls or ceilings:

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1831021#Comment_1831021

Sometimes the answer is in plain sight, but only for those who have the trained eyes to see it.

Neild5

As KC Jones said, the problem I'd probably between your bedroom and the boiler. The good news is you are on the first floor, hopefully the basement below is unfinished. Since your radiator looks like it has dropped due to the sag in the wood floor, they should look at the horizontal pipe between where it goes through your floor and where it connects to the main, I bet it is not pitched correctly.

maroon

I have some good news!

Perhaps predictably, I have not heard back from the super about the return of the boiler tech, so I bought some wraparound fiberglass insulation myself for the vertical pipe to test out if it would help. As KC_Jones predicted, it did not.

The condo rules specifically want the valves open all the way, so that the system works properly (no comment). However, given the situation (my slipping sanity), I used a mole grip to turn that left-side stem clockwise and shut off the radiator to see if it would help at all.

The clanging pot symphony is now NO MORE!!!!! Also, my landlord is okay with keeping it shut, so win for me!!!! (Also, he had bought the same insulation as me lol, so I saved time testing it myself)

It seems the valve must be kind of shot though or the boiler is surging as you all suggested, because the radiator is actually still getting hot and there's hissing from steam coming out of that stem, when I don't think anything is supposed to be coming out of it. Plus, some hissing from a little water on top of the nut around the stem, I guess because it's sitting on hot metal. So, steam is obviously still getting through even though it is "closed", which I'm sure is not ideal system-wise or expense-wise.

However, this hissing is a million billion times less awful than the construction site clanging that was happening before and I don't pay for the heat, so as long as the radiator won't explode on me, I will leave it alone~~~.

(Side note: I'm guessing this building's pipes will come to a head sooner or later because the guy below me with the same apartment setup as mine arrived back after two weeks away to find water damage on their bathroom ceiling. Of course, their landlord believes this apartment is at fault, so my landlord is going to get to the bottom of that since doesn't seem like anything is leaking in my bathroom, so probably a building pipe issue. Interestingly enough, the basement units in this building don't have radiators or the vertical pipes. I saw photos of his unit on a listing and it has baseboards all along the floor. I think it is a hot water baseboard heating because that unit was also listed as heat / hot water included like mine and if it were electric, the heat would surely be paid by the tenant. Does make me wonder where the boiler actually is…it's a 4 sided squarish building, maybe it's in one of the other sides.)

jesmed1

Wow, talk about the answer hiding in plain sight!

Obviously there is something else going on, because the system should work silently with the radiator valve open, but that's the landlord's problem to figure out now, not yours.

Well done.

ethicalpaul

The boiler is likely way oversized and running at way too high a pressure. Instead of closing the valve, you can probably disable the vent by turning it upside down. The valve usually can't fully stop the steam as you saw (except in the case of a relatively new valve)

maroon

I think my vent may be stuck. I can't turn it.

This is what the end looks like:

I looked up a video of this model (it is a Vent-Rite #1) and the install videos all show them being turned for install and the old ones being turned for replacement removal, so I imagine it is supposed to be able to turn. The radiator has been painted at least twice, so maybe it's gotten stuck from the paint. Or is possibly rusted in there. I'm a bit nervous to try to turn it with my mole grip, I don't want to break it. I did turn the dial at the bottom as far past 1 as it would go, though seems a faint amount of air was coming out still. I just put a few pieces of tape on the hole at top, fingers crossed!

Edit: This is a photo of the other side showing the name:

ethicalpaul

it can be a risk, but yes, that vent was definitely screwed in and screwing it out is how to remove it.

Have the super or someone with responsibility help to disable it

Intplm.

The radiator is "pitched1/8 "? Great! but is it pitched toward the valve or away from the valve?

I ask because the radiator is resting on the wooden floor so how is it pitched? It appears to be sagging into the floor opposite the valve. It should be pitched so condensate can drain toward the valve not away from it.

look closely. The legs on the right are on a portion of the floor that is between the seems. The legs on the left are on a seem and are also held up possibly by the valve. The radiator is probably level if not pitched the correct way.

I would get some simple wood shims or a couple of painters mixing sticks and place them under the right side legs and see if that helps first.

AdmiralYoda

If you closed the valve to the radiator and the water hammer went away….that tells me you found the source of the problem!

Water hammer happens when the condensed steam (water) can't return easily back to the boiler. The steam and pooled water fight each other and cause the pooled water to flash boil causing a pressure spike which we hear as banging.

Your radiator is either improperly pitched, has sunk a bit or the floor has settled causing a sag in the steam pipe. The water can't drain back to the boiler and you get water hammer.

An easy thing to do would be to try and raise the radiator off the floor (carefully) and put some wood underneath the legs and make sure the radiator is pitched properly. Sometimes the radiators can be raised by a couple inches to correct the sag…and poof the problem goes away!

I'd also be interested in what the operating pressures are of the boiler. Excessive pressure can make water hammer much worse.

Intplm.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1832852#Comment_1832852

Well said. As mentioned above. However, trusting an old steam valve to shut off properly isn't the best advice as they tend to not close completely. Doing so can cause confusion to a novice so, @maroon you can try doing it but don't put a lot of confidence in the out come.

maroon

I think my radiator is bolted into the floor.

I mean, I am pretty weak, but it seems to have no give.

The current situation is kind of holding sound wise, but the valve is leaking quite a bit when the boiler is running, so I have to keep a towel there. I'm guessing leaking with the prior owner is why the left section of floor under the valve looks the way it does….

It sometimes has some loud bangs at the beginning of the cycle (it's not the clanging in the video, but more of a boom) since it's not actually closed all the way obviously. Also, I think sometimes the bangs must loosen up the valve stem or something else does, because I'll notice it has turned loose some and I have to tighten it back up. Seems odd it even gets so hot with the air vent closed so much, too!

I'll send my landlord an update about it soon, I have surgery tomorrow and I'm just exhausted right now. But seems obvious this radiator has to be repaired some kind of way. Though, honestly, I'd be just as happy to disconnect the thing completely.

jesmed1

I'm guessing that radiator is 24" high by 48" long. Maybe 500 pounds? No bolts needed. 😀

If the valve is leaking from the packing nut, it's not that hard to seal the leak using graphite packing "string" from the plumbing section of your Orange Box store. Rich Trethewy from This Old House shows how to do it starting at the 2:00 mark.

Obviously, the valve needs to be turned off when this is being done, and it's best to time it well before the next boiler cycle.

https://youtu.be/y0VQOZqiw7U

Intplm.

Or you can first try tightening the packing nut.