Boiler not firing

KeithR

Have a Burnham Series 2 model 205 NSL-GEI2. Read the troubleshooting guide for the Honeywell SV 9501 and get 24vac according to guide at the controller. Igniter is not glowing. Have a new igniter and same thing. Any help on what to check next? If it gets over my head I will call a Pro, would just like to understand how the system works. Thanks Keith

Jamie Hall

There are a number of safeties… which one, or ones, have tripped?

KeithR

That I do not know. With 24vac at the controller, is there a particular safety to look at? Have checked the flame roll out and vent damper and have continuity at both. What has me scratching my head is the troubleshooting guide says to replace the igniter but that's not working.

One thing I noticed, when powering on I would hear a clicking ( like a relay) not hearing that now. Also the circulating pump does start.

Ironman

Is the vent damper opening?

KeithR

Yes damper is open

KeithR

After searching though the form for similar problems and reading them, I checked power to the relay and get 26.5 vac at R and C. Also 26.5 vac at R and Y, R and G 26.5 vac.

Regarding the safeties, Are there 3 or4 of them? Is it correct that if there is continuity the safety is good. If open then that safety is tripped. Flame roll out, vent damper and temp limit show continuity. Is there another safety?

Thanks

HVACNUT

Damper is open but the circulator isn't running? Is the damper always open?

It should read 0 volts across R and G if the thermostat is raised above room temperature. And the circulator should run as soon as the relay coil is energized. Jump R and G. If that works, it's either the thermostat or the wiring between it and the boiler.

KeithR

Just to clear up any confusion on the relay/transformer reading I'll list them below.

The circulator starts on demand for heat. The damper is always open, switch is set to hold damper open. This boiler was installed in 2000 and always been that way.

The thermostat and wiring are fine.

Relay with no call for heat

R & C 26.5, R&G 26.5, R&Y 26.5, C&Y 0, C&G 0 G&Y 0

call for heat

R&C 26.5, R&G 26.5, R&Y 26.5, C&G 0, C&Y O, G&Y0

Sorry for any confusion, just trying to provide as much info I can and any help is greatly appreciated.

Jamie Hall

Are those call for heat readings from the thermostat calling or from jumping across R and G? As @HVACNUT suggested, try junping across R and G and see what happens.

109A_5

Hello KeithR,

Is this your system ? The series 2 manual I found seems a lot different.

" The thermostat and wiring are fine.

Relay with no call for heat

R & C 26.5, R&G 26.5, R&Y 26.5, C&Y 0, C&G 0 G&Y 0

call for heat

R&C 26.5, R&G 26.5, R&Y 26.5, C&G 0, C&Y O, G&Y0 "

If R to G is not zero Volts during a call for heat and you say the thermostat and wiring is fine, how can it be ? R to G goes to zero Volts to energize the coil inside R8285D relay. The 24 VAC would then be across the relay coil C to G.

Jamie Hall

I hate to bash — but if the thermostat and the wiring are fine, if the thermostat is calling for heat the R-G voltage MUST be 0, as when the thermostat is calling it is a closed switch.

So the comment that the thermostat and wiring are fine is simply not true.

109A_5

" Relay with no call for heat

R & C 26.5, R&G 26.5, R&Y 26.5, C&Y 0, C&G 0 G&Y 0

call for heat

R&C 26.5, R&G 26.5, R&Y 26.5, C&G 0, C&Y O, G&Y0 "

No is no difference with these measurements above.

What you should see,

R to C, This is the Transformers secondary, should always 24 VAC.

R to G, 24 VAC no call for heat. 0 VAC call for heat.

R to Y, Appears to be the same as R to G, 24 VAC no call for heat. 0 VAC call for heat.

C to G, The Coil inside of the relay, 0 VAC no call for heat. 24 VAC call for heat.

C to Y, Appears to be the same as C to G, The Coil inside of the relay, 0 VAC no call for heat. 24 VAC call for heat.

G to Y, Always 0 VAC, appears to be tied together.

KeithR

Jamie,

I don't see it as bashing just your knowledge saying somethings not right. I'm only sharing what I've found. The thermostat is a simple 2 wire so with it set at lower then room temp say 65 when the room is 68 there's no call for heat and set at 70 it calls for heat. All the readings were done using the thermostat, no jumper. I'll check the readings again tomorrow and report back if anything is different. With R&G not going to zero is that an indication the relay is bad ?

109A_5

That's very close to it. I've not been able to find a manual for this model. It was installed in 2000 by Washington Energy Service and I've had to look at several manuals and match up part model #s. This one is real close, sorry about the poor picture.

109A_5

" With R&G not going to zero is that an indication the relay is bad ? "

No it is an indication that the relay coil is good and the thermostat or the thermostat circuit is defective. That thermostat / thermostat circuit as a whole is a switch, Closed = 0 Voltage across it = call for heat, Open = 24 Volts across it = no call for heat.

An open or 'Off' switch has voltage across it, a closed or 'On' switch has zero voltage across it.

Also test the voltage at the thermostat (R and W wires typically) during a Call for heat and then no Call for heat, you should see the voltage change there too.

Steamhead

That gas valve is a Honeywell "SmartValve", which has been problematic, and it sounds like yours has failed. A while ago, we had a similar model with that problem. We called Burnham tech support, who told us they had a retrofit kit using a standard intermittent pilot setup (VR8204/8304, S8610, replacement pilot assembly, wiring etc). We ordered that, installed it, and now that boiler has a standard gas train that can be easily repaired.

109A_5

What you should see (updated).

R to C, This is the Transformers secondary, should always be 24 VAC.

R to G, 24 VAC no call for heat. 0 VAC call for heat.

R to Y, 24 VAC no call for heat (contact 1R2 open). 0 VAC call for heat (1R coil energized, contact 1R2 closed).

C to G, The Coil inside of the relay, 0 VAC no call for heat. 24 VAC call for heat.

C to Y, 0 VAC no call for heat. 24 VAC call for heat.

G to Y, Always 0 VAC. Since normally they are both switched at almost the same time.

Voltages noted below in Red are during a call for heat.

109A_5

All this previous reasoning is assuming there are no zone valves (end switches) or other equipment (like a multi zone switching relay) in-between the thermostat and the boiler.

KeithR

Jamie, 1090A_5, HVACNUT AND Steamhead

I rechecked the numbers and they are all the same, however I did the jumper between R&G and the reading are as you said they should be.

R&G jumper #'s R&C 25.5, R&G 0 R&Y 0, C&G 25.5, C&Y 25.5 and G&Y 0.

I checked the wire from the thermostat ( stat removed wires twisted together on one end) and have continuity.

Checked with the stat installed( heat on) and have continuity there also.

Will it cause any damage run it with the R&G jumper in place?

I'm off to buy a thermostat, just thought I'd update this and will post with the new thermostat in place.

The only thing between the stat wire and the boiler is a Honeywell RA832A switching relay and I haven't checked for continuity there.

109A_5

When you jumpered R&G did the boiler start ?

If you connected the R and W wires at the thermostat did the boiler start ?

Is the "Honeywell RA832A" in addition to or instead of the Honeywell 8285D Control Center in the above wiring diagram ?

KeithR

So I changed the thermostat and removed the jumper. Same thing.

I'm starting to think the board in the gas controller may be bad. Like Steamhead said they have had problems, but I'll wait to see if you gents have any other advice on what to look at.

Greatly appreciate the time taken to reply and help with this.

109A_5 would like some of that magic you used, very cool. Picture I sent you could hardly read, yours is clear as a bell. Thanks

109A_5

Before the new thermostat was installed;

When you jumpered R&G did the boiler start ?

If you connected the R and W wires at the thermostat did the boiler start ?

Is the "Honeywell RA832A" in addition to or instead of the Honeywell 8285D Control Center in the above wiring diagram ?

Jamie Hall

"The only thing between the stat wire and the boiler is a Honeywell RA832A switching relay and I haven't checked for continuity there."

now you tell us.

KeithR

Yes, ignitor glowed, pilot light and the main burners fired. The RA832A is in addition to, wire from the stat goes to the RA832A then to R&G on the 8285.

KeithR

Jamie,

Sorry about that not being included, when call for that relay clicks pretty load, removed the cover see it moving back and forth.

109A_5

The RA832A is very similar to the 8285D.

T-T where the thermostat connects to, 0 volts across T-T during a Call for heat, 24 VAC No call for heat.

If you jump T-T the relay should close starting the boiler.

X-X probably goes the the R and G on the boiler.

Load 1 and/or Load 2 probably powers the circulator.

Is there 120 VAC across L1 to L2 ?

Jamie Hall

Aaagh. OK. Now check X-X on the relay unit. Should be 0 volts when the thermostat is calling and the relay is closed. Furthermore, you should have 120 VAC on both pairs of load terminals.

If not the relay may be moving, but the contacts are not closing.

If the relay contacts are closing properly, now go look at the wiring from X-X to the boiler.

KeithR

109A_5

Checked RA832A and found the following, T&T call for heat 0, no heat 25.5. Have 120 V on 1&2 and 1&4.

While checking for the readings, pressure from probe created some rattling at the R8285D.

Turns out the top of the green board( one that everything mounts to) is loose and pushing it in, the boiler fired and ran. Will replace that and should be good to go.

Really appreciate your time and help with this. First rounds on me!

109A_5

Hello KeithR,

Sounds like the classic failing solder joints in Honeywell products built like that (although it could be the relay too). Easy quick repair if you have the tools and a bit of know how.

At least now you have some good direction in getting it running.

KeithR

Easier for me to just order one. Thing is 24 yrs old and they're around a $100 from SupplyHouse. Be here Thursday. Ordered a better Thermostat to replace the junk Honeywell one.

Not sure why it came lose, live about 15-20 miles from were JBLM does their drill firings and it shakes the house a little, pictures rattle on the wall type thing, might be why.

Thanks again

109A_5

Solder joints connecting the relays to the circuit board fail all the time, not just in Honeywell equipment. I think it is the vibration (or shock impact) from the relay constantly changing states. Honeywell Aquastats also suffer from that same ailment. Also if the holes in the circuit board are a bit oversized for the relay pins the solder has to bridge that gap and that promotes failure. Those Honeywell products typically used single sided circuit boards (copper only on one side of the board), joint failure on single sided circuit boards may be more prevalent than doubled sided boards with plated through holes that are used in more complicated designs.