Am I being simpleminded for wanting a Weil-McLain just like my old one?
Since my Weil-McLain P-WGO-3 oil boiler is 22 or more years old I have been planning to research new boilers of all kinds and do heat load calculations and have everything lined up for whenever it expires.
Ha.
Of course I didn't do all that and now I think I have a leak and might need a new one. So I don't feel I have much time if any to research anything (I do not know what a modcon or combi etc. is, though I'm sure they're great). The easiest thing on earth would be to order another WM just like it. Then I'm pretty sure I could install it myself and just mimic the near boiler piping since the system seems to have worked pretty well. (I WOULD try to scramble and learn how to do some kind of heat calculation, in case the 115,000 btus/hr of the current one is oversized.)
Please weigh in on my feeling that this is the way to go for me considering: the price seems good, I see it as a reliable workhorse with no bells and whistles and circuit boards to go bad, I'm pretty sure I could install it and maintain it myself, you get the idea. It seems to me the only thing I'd be missing out on is newfangled high-tech efficiency, which would be great to have, but our house is probably leaky as hell and I could address tightening it up and get savings that way, and the savings from installing it myself might count for something. As you can probably tell I'm asking for validation of what I really want to do, but if anyone dislikes WM please let me know, and any other opinions off the tops of your heads would be helpful before I pull the plug.
Comments
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It just depends on what you want. I'm not a "good enough" type of person. I like everything to be as good I can get it. Nothing good is cheap, nothing cheap is good. I don't fear technology, I try to understand it. I value reliability and ease of service over efficiency.
This is why I already suggested the EK-1 Frontier System 2000. But if you want to slap in another WGO that's your decision.
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tightening the envelope give much higher return on investment then any high efficiency boiler!
tighten the envelope and get a much smaller boiler.
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Assuming that this is the same boiler with the evident leaking in your other thread…
No I wouldn't say you were being at all simpleminded. Both of the above folks have very good points. Not saying that. However, I have a suspicion that you are running out of time…
I will say this, though: I like Weil-McClain. However, you have to be rather careful assembling them, and follow the directions with care. It is possible to assemble them in such a way that they will fail in a remarkably short time… but not if you follow the directions. Then they last a long time.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
The more opinions the better.
Oh, do I void the warranty if I do it myself?
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Yes
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Chances are the Weil McLain boiler you need does not have to be assembled. It probably can be bought fully assembled or knocked down where you have to mount the burner and controls and jacket.
If where you live allows homeowner installations you good to go.
But you going to need an oil tech to set up the burner and combustion test it
IMHO Weil McLain is a decent choice. The boiler has been around a long time with no major issues.
Look at a Williamson boiler if you have a distributor in your area. It's the same boiler made by Weil McLain with the Williamson name on it for a few $$$$cheaper.
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@Jamie Hall it sounds like you mean that it would void the warranty if I installed it? True? Also thanks for the other comments, they’re reassuring. Yes, time is a factor. (Just what I wanted to avoid, though it’s warm right now.) Depends how long the tech says I can keep it going (I do have a tech coming tomorrow just to confirm/assess the leak and hopefully I’ll get a replacement estimate too which will help decision/making re DIY or not.)
@EBEBRATT-Ed I’m pretty sure my town doesn’t get involved in this stuff at all. But would there still be a warranty issue? I guess I can call WM and ask.
As for assembly I’d probably get something like this, which I think comes pretty much assembled. I hope! Maybe without circulator attached.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Weil-McLain-386-701-013-WGO-3R-85000-BTU-Output-Cast-Iron-Gold-Oil-Boiler-Series-4
(Don’t know what the R means.)
I will also ask WM (or does anybody know?) … the ad for the WGO’s says to use the GO-2 or GO-3 burner assembly, but I’ve been assuming I could use my old Beckett AFG.Looking into Williamson, that might be a hot tip.
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@SuperTech , and others, I’ve been reading Energy Kinetic’s website, very interesting. One concern I have that would apply to any boiler is corrosion, because we have high total dissolved solids in our well water with I think high chloride and other stuff. We have a neutralizer for acidity, but I think the only way to deal with tds is with a whole house reverse osmosis system, which is very expensive and more to maintain, so that’s not in the cards.
I read EK’s warranty and the pressure vessel is not covered due to corrosion, unconditioned water, etc., and I could just see investing in this expensive system and having it go south quickly with a huge loss for us. We have been going through water heaters every couple years, including a stainless steel one which leaked (now I’m trying thermoplastic, with my fingers crossed.) The WM lasted a while, but maybe could have gone longer. I don’t think stainless steel, which EK uses, is any less susceptible to these things than cast iron, maybe I’m wrong.
So I’m wondering if I shouldn’t take the approach of our neighbor who said they finally figured out not to spring for the expensive faucets and bathroom fittings etc., since with our water we’ll be replacing them soon enough. That approach would be an argument for the cheaper WM. I wonder whether the probably great but very expensive EK system might not be for people with water like ours.Please weigh in. You guys see a lot more corrosion, EK’s, WM’s than I do.
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I would suggest you go with an EK boiler.
When it comes to the water quality in the system I would suggest filling the system with demineralized water and inhibitors which can be brought in. To maintain system pressure and make up water I would also not directly connect the potable water to the system but use a glycol feeder filled with demineralized water and system inhibitors.
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Do yourself a favor and get the new burner that come with the new boiler. Then you won't have any issues.
If homeowner installation is allowed in your state go for it. Just get a decent oil tech to combustion test and adjust.
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Do you plan on just swapping out the boiler, or a complete system replacement?
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@EzzyT very interesting. I’ll look into that water treatment stuff. I guess the potable water that goes through the water heater would still be untreated, so there’s still a possibility of that dissolving the water heating part - we never knew what really destroyed our indirect heaters - was it the heating circuit or the potable water? Dunno.
Ezzy, and @SuperTech, would I be able to learn how to maintain the EK myself… someday? I don’t have a digital analyzer but I do have an old wet kit (don’t laugh) that seems to work pretty well for smoke, draft and CO2. I wouldn’t try to do it all myself at first, but get a tech and learn. I hear the EK’s can be pretty easy to clean.
@HVACNUT I was planning on just swapping out the boiler and keeping the indirect hw heater I just put in last year. Cheap n’ easy-ish, though I don’t yet know how much the EKs cost.
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So as the other gentlemen said water quality and maintenance play a huge role in any systems life. With normal use our energy kinetics boilers have been running for45 + years. Adding a boiler water treatment such as 8 way after installation (supplied with every boiler) and after doing any system repairs will add to life expectancy. Adding a scale stopper on the incoming cold water to be used for domestic hot water and optionally piping the plate heat exchanger as a zone will help prolong the life of the plate heat exchanger. With the potential of 20% to 40 % savings over other systems depending on what your replacing you will still be ahead in the game.
If the boilers is tuned and set up right cleaning is minimal on a yearly basis. I would suggest giving our national sales manager Jay McCay a call at 908-328-7154, he can answer any of your questions and put you in touch with the Territory Manager or recommend dealers in your area who can go over your needs and requirements.
Rob W.
Energy Kinetics
Robert W.
Energy Kinetics
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If you're going that way because of $$$, it's understandable, but penny wise, pound foolish.
DEFINITELY get a qualified oil tech to set up the burner and do all the tests that must be done.
I also have a WM WGO-3 from 1996. I'll be going EK all the way. I'm in a little better situation because it's my living.
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Im pretty much in the same situation as @HVACNUT . I have a Peerless WBV-03 and I work on a lot of EK boilers and I really appreciate the difference in the engineering of the boilers. It doesn't matter what I do to make my boiler better, it will never be as good as an EK. I see a lot of boilers and I really believe EK is the best option.
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are you sure you cant use the https://www.supplyhouse.com/Weil-McLain-386-701-012-WGO-2-75000-BTU-Output-Cast-Iron-Gold-Oil-Boiler-Series-4. Have you compelted your load calculation? There is an extra couple of grand in it for you.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan now you are reading my mind, that might be just the boiler for me (more below). Yes, I did the calculation and will give an update on that thread on my calculating heat loss, will post it there soon.
FIrst I have to add something here that I probably should have added sooner to this debate of high tech/high quality vs cheaper workhorse. Had I done so previously it might have clarified things for myself as well as @SuperTech , @EzzyT , @HVACNUT and others recommending the EK boilers. (BTW, someone who installs EKs is coming this week to give a quote, so I am still seriously looking at them based on your recommendations.) A big factor in my weighing which way to go is that there is a very good chance we will be moving from this house in the next few years, maybe a 60% chance we won't be here in 5 years, maybe more, maybe less. My whole view of the EK vs WM matter is colored by this, and it would be totally different if we had every intention of staying. It would have to be a lot of energy savings to invest in what I assume will be a very large price tag and be out of here in, say, three years. It may well be that if I am convinced of the exceptional quality of EK, then that will mean that it may well be my next boiler … in my next house (which will surely be our last before the old age home…)
So Ed yes, that WM might still be the boiler for me, I'll give details on that heat load thread. (Is this the kind of situation where I should consider asking them to consolidate the threads?)
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don’t consolidate. That will be confusing.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan . I did do it once and the result was very confusing.
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I've serviced quite a few WM Golds here on the outer Cape (Cape Cod), and have one in my home, a 2009 installation with an indirect water heater. I regard them as the "Fords" or "Chevys" of oil-fired boilers; not fancy or of the highest efficiency, but very efficient nonetheless (I'm at 85.1%) and very reliable and long-lasting. One of the last ones I worked on, a few years ago, was a Version 1 from 1996; it was filthy and had a collapsed combustion chamber, leading to sooting. It also had the original Becket burner. I replaced the combustion chamber, installed a Carlin EZ-1 HPW burner with all the trimmings, and re-piped the fuel system adding a deaerator. The boiler is now 29 years old and no issues. That said, if I had it to do over again in my home, I'd be tempted to go with one of the high-efficiency triple-pass boilers such as the EK or the Buderus. Much easier to clean, too…
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Thanks @OuterCapeOilguy, I just looked at the Spirovent deaerator and it says best put on supply side, I don’t have room there so probably won’t get it.
Glad to hear you like WMs. If circumstances were different I might have sprung for an EK like you mentioned. I’ll keep my old burner for now, so $0 for the burner, but I know I can swap one in anytime.0 -
Caleffi and others have versions of the Spirovent type air eliminators designed for installation on vertical pipes. Caleffi even has one with a magnetic dirt separator combined with the air eliminator.
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@SuperTech I looked at the instructions for the Caleffi Discal 551, which looks like a good thing to have, but it said it is preferably installed after the boiler and on the pump suction side, which I take to mean between the boiler and the pump on the supply side. With the current configuration there’s not even enough room on the supply side for the pump (see photos below). I could lower the boiler having it on two blocks instead of 4, oh heck, even on one block if that were enough clearance to turn the return elbow, but it’s not even clear that would make enough room for the pump, and I like having the boiler higher up. @EdTheHeaterMan has suggested I could raise the 4-zone supply manifold by cutting all four pipes and raising them, depending on my soldering skills, to which I say: Ha, exactly. Soldering skills. Although I just realized if I cut all 4 vertical pipes and used a hanger to hold it up while I put slip joints on them, I could possibly do it. This would be adding what for me would be a somewhat challenging plumbing subproject to an already intimidating bigger one, with time pressure due to cold weather. But corrosion is our middle name at my house, so if you think a deaerator would make a significant difference I can think about it.
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The 1/2" tap on top of the block, next to the supply is for an air eliminator. The front section has a built-in air scoop. Get a 1/2 x 6 black nipple, and either a ball valve and a 1/2" air eliminator, or a Bell coupling, and it can be reduced to 3/8" or 1/8". I have an 1/8" on mine, but I also have a Spiro vent.
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@HVACNUT wait, you mean a deaerator like @SuperTech is talking about can go where the typical Hy Vent goes? I know the Hy Vent itself gets rid of excess air, but I’ve been assuming those Spirovents and Caleffi things are a step up. Do make a deaerator that can go there in that tapping? (I want one.)
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Hi, I'd like to add a different perspective on what's cost effective and choosing a boiler. The EK costs enough more that fuel savings will not make up the difference in the years you stay there. But, if you have years worth of low fuel bills to show the buyer of your home, it increases your home's value, likely enough to offset the more expensive boiler… and maybe then some. So if you can wait for the payback, the more efficient boiler can make sense.
Yours, Larry1 -
I did both. A Hy-vent in the 1/2" tap, and a 1.5" Spiro vent on the supply manifold.
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Disagree with you Larry. In most real estate transactions the agents have an unwritten rule to keep the buyer and the seller apart until settlement. By that time the decisions have already been made. There will be no showing any savings with the EK over the self installed WM. On the list of things the seller says about the home there is one box for the heating system. You get to check off
✔OIL HEAT. There is no box that says
✔Brand spanking new, really cool, ultra efficient, state of the art, oil heating system, that will cost less to use than any other heating system in any other home that you might be looking at.
I looked, that choice is not on the form.
The best thing @seized123 can do is to put in the lowest cost system you can that will maximize your selling price. A 2 or 3 year old WM will look just as new as a new EK or Burnham, or Peerless. (I have a brother in Law who is a Realtor.) Neighborhood, Kitchens and storage space sells a home. Not heating systems.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Hi @EdTheHeaterMan , If you look up energy efficient mortgage, you'll see that some lenders do make allowances for this sort of thing. I would not have been aware of it, but I know a realtor who has been working on making this a reality for years, and seems to have made some progress.
I think of it like this. The borrower has only so much money available monthly. If less of it it going for the energy bill, more can go towards the mortgage. 🤔
Yours, Larry
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There is a very interesting air scoop built into the front section of the WM WGO boiler. A built in air scoop you ask? YES, a built in Air Scoop, and it is located in the hottest portion of the system. And if you study up on the Physics of water, and go to Water Law School to learn about Boyle's Law and Henry's Law. You will know that Robert Boyle and William Henry were not even real lawyers. But they did determine that the best place to remove air from a heating systems is at the lowest pressure and the highest temperature. So if you put the circulator pump on the supply outlet, then that is the point where you have the lowest pressure. That is also the place where you have the highest water temperature. Both places that will release air from the water in the exact same place… WOW! And Weil McLain has this built in air scoop… AWESOME!!!
All you air problems vanish if you pipe it that way. Here is a illustration that many boiler manufacturers don't advertise any more.
Back in the 1970s when I was learning about this stuff, I did not understand the significance of this feature. If you take a close look at the water jacket (the blue area) at the point where the 1-½” supply pipe is connected (C) the tapping drops down below the point in the water jacket where the air vent tapping ¾” (N) is connected. That is the air scoop that collects the dissolved air that is released by the high temperature of the water. Place an air vent there or connect your open type compression (expansion) tank and all the air from your system will be gone from the radiators. The air is vented out of the system (or added to the air in the compression tank) where it can't cause problems.
So @seized123, if you want to go to the extra trouble of making room for the circulator on the supply side by leaving out a block at the bottom, then do it. But don't stress over making room for a micro-bubble air remover. You are not going to make things so much better that your fuel bill will drop drastically. I doubt if it will drop at all based on the circulator location.
What I might do is remove the zone valve cover and polish them up with a scotchbrite pad to make them all look new. You can polish the copper pipes and brass fittings also. Then you will have a new looking system.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I did not know that. that is interesting and it makes all the sense in the world.
But I think it is too late for this particular job… the boiler may already be ordered.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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To remove the boiler from the system. You need to drain the system of course, turn off the electric and remove the one wire that feeds power to the switch.
- Then you remove the circulator pump and disconnect the wires ( save for future use )
- Then disconnect the union on the supply side.
- Remove the flue pipe connector (Smoke pipe to the chimney)
- That should disconnect the boiler from the system.
- Now you decide if you want to put the circulator on the supply side ( you need a ruler for that)
- Measure the distance from the copper male adaptor on the supply side to the floor. See if there is any up and down movement. (You can re-support the pipes after the boiler is connected)
- Put the circulator flanges on the supply side and temporally attach the circulator pump
- Now measure the floor to the circulator flange on the top of the circulator.
- See how many blocks you need to remove to accommodate the new circulator position.
- You can remove the pipe nipple in the boiler supply opening and replace it with a shorter one. Just make sure you can get the top cover back on, and get a wrench on the flange bolts.
- Now decide on the circulator position
- Remove the circulator and place the new boiler on the blocks.
If you decide to use the supply circulator location, then put a tee between the air vent and the boiler to accommodate the expansion tank and boiler feed line. Use this fitting between the expansion tank and the system. Great for future service of the tank.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Webstone-41672-1-2-Pro-Pal-Full-Port-Brass-Ball-Valve-w-Hi-Flow-Hose-Drain-600-WOG
On the return side you can get a set of 1-1/4 circulator flanges and a 6" pipe nipple (or maybe it's a 5-1/2" long pipe nipple) and use that as a spacer for the spot you removes the old pump from. That will be your union connection on the return side
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan that is some awesome information and useful tips. Before I get to the rest of it, let me just confirm something:
So, after comments by @SuperTech I was getting ready to order a Spirovent Spirocombi Air & Dirt Separator Magnet ($400):
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Spirotherm-VDR150-SWM-1-1-2-Spirocombi-Air-Dirt-Separator-Magnet-Sweat?srsltid=AfmBOop-rX1gCTmg6bj1DvJdch3xVKG7qGh1IKk2l2_Vvuh5IASBnEug
and try to make room on the supply side for both it and the circulator.
Are you saying that because of Weil-McLain's built in air scoop that would be unnecessary (as long as I put the circ on the supply side)? If the Spirovent thing would do anything to reduce corrosion, I'm for it, but if the air scoop plus Hy Vent takes care of that, so much the better.
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The boiler air scoop will work regardless of weather you are pumping toward or pumping away. It will work better if you are pumping away as you're adding high heat AND low pressure.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
@delcrossv sounds good I will put the circulator on the supply side, and unless @EdTheHeaterMan or @SuperTech tells me different, I’ll skip the micro bubble air separator.
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I thought the whole reason for going with the WM was so you could cut out the old block, slide in the new, and be done with it. If it's turning into a re-pipe and a lot more, then just go with the EK. You'll be glad you did.
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[NOTE: I edited this post after it was up awhile, because it was way too long.]
@HVACNUT it's too late, the boiler's on its way. But you have a point, in the end the EK is going to have a supply and return, and if I'm doing all this for the WM why can't I just pipe for an EK. I'm no pro, but I did all the piping in the photo above the indirect hw heater in the photo (I know, you'll probably see a few thousand things wrong with it, but that's for another thread), and all the fuel line stuff, and a few other projects (all with MUCH help from this forum), how much more complicated could the EK supply/return piping be than that piping? (But even if I could do it, I would certainly get a pro for the final setup/tuning.)
And even if all that were the case, I've been going under the assumption that Energy Kinetics does not sell to DIYers, that they have to be installed by their own distributors, perhaps for good reason. I didn't even think to ask the two people I got quotes from whether they would just sell the unit, I figured they'd just say: What, are you crazy?
(If I found out they would sell me just a unit and the price were decent, if I returned the WM paying the shipping costs — who knows, like, $1000 — it might still be worth it if the yearly savings are really 30% plus, but that would be a huge changing horses mid-stream. Maybe @Roger could weigh in whether they sell just the unit, it would be good to know either for this house or the next.)
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Thank you, @seized123 and for everyone’s comments.
Energy Kinetics only sells to heating companies where installation and service are a primary business; among other things, they know boilers, combustion, fuels, plumbing, venting, and of course what it takes to make an installation safe, reliable, and professional. Our territory managers meet with every dealer, and we know them, their people, and their business so quality remains high. Our boilers are pre-piped and pre-wired for time and installation savings, so they and their customers also enjoy a faster installation with a higher level of quality. We only sell to dealers that are qualified and responsible for the installation, and that all needs to be done correctly to have the equipment perform properly and be serviced properly to deliver safe 30+ year boiler life. This installation and service bar should be true of all boilers, and not unique to Energy Kinetics.Best,
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.3 -
Thanks @Roger (on a Sunday). Exactly what I thought. That the boilers are "pre-piped and pre-wired for time and installation savings," is interesting, and might explain something I was wondering about. I noticed that in the two sets of quotes I got, the price difference between a more conventional boiler and the EK wasn't that much. (Hence, had I gone for an installed boiler, I probably would have gotten an EK.) If the EK is inherently a more expensive device, as I assume, maybe the idea is that this preparation closes the gap (installed-price-wise) with other boilers.
I guess my most substantial savings will come from doing my own labor, which is in the end why I chose the WM. I know you mention you think that all boilers should only be installed by professionals, and you may be right, but I want not to agree, thinking shouldn't there be a place for the DIY'er (I think of the DIY'ers who have done far more complex things than I am trying to do (steam!) like @ethicalpaul and @mattmich and many others from the past on this forum). But then again with this heating stuff, which sometimes seems like rocket science, it's admittedly not like putting in a showerhead or shelves or making chopstick holders (I probably would have trouble with those too). Anyway, after I can't even get my boiler in position or I install it upside-down or get smoke in a color nobody's ever seen before I will have helped you prove your point.
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