Please help! Uneven heating issues with one-pipe steam system

mh0719

I own a three floor apartment building in Chicago. My family lives in the top floor, which has been getting very little heat. If we get any heat in our unit, the other tenants apartments are way too warm.

We put 4s in the first floor radiators , 5s and 6s in the 2nd floor, and 6s and Cs in our unit. Aside from replacing the radiator vents, is there anything else we can do?

We have one long perimeter main with one air vent near the end of it right before the pipe returns to the boiler. Could we add more vents? Would that help?

Thanks in advance!

leonz

I am speaking as a novice homeowner,

Are there vents at the far ends of the large diameter steam pipes?

Do you have a diagram of the basement steam piping you can load on to the forum?

Are all the valves on all the radiators on the third floor fully open? You will not be able to have dry steam enter the radiators quickly and to allow the condensate to drain back if the valves are not fully open and you will have poor heat.

Is this the first heating season that you have had trouble with your steam heating system?

We need more good pictures of the boiler and all the piping in the basement as well as the gauge glass, the pressure gauges, the pig tail and the pressuretrol setting.

Is your steam heating system a bottom fed heating system or a top fed steam system?

Is your steam heating system a one pipe or two pipe system?

Has a pair of low water cut off switches been installed in your boiler?

When was the last time the boiler fire box was cleaned, the pig tail cleaned and the mud leg washed out?

Is the water in the gauge glass of the boiler dirty?

Do you add water to the boiler manually or do you have an automatic water feeder on this boiler, when was it cleaned last?

You should check your third floor radiators to see if they are pitched back to the pipe to allow condensate to drain back and allow steam to enter the radiators, you may have to shim the radiators to get them pitched properly.

delcrossv

Try #4's on the first two floors. You can also speed things up by putting vents on the top of the risers where they come into your apartment (but try swapping vents first)

KC_Jones

How long is that main? If it's 30' or less from the boiler to the vent, I'd say you are fine. Longer than that and you may need more. The tapping looks a bit small, would need to know that size to see if it could handle any more venting, so you could be stuck with what you have. That is a Gorton #2 vent which vents similar to an open 1/8" pipe, if the pipe is bigger than that, you have extra capacity if necessary.

You may also end up having to put a vent on both sides of the radiator. One on the inlet to vent the vertical pipe, and one in the normal location just to vent the radiator. That is another option that has been used with some success.

I'd slow down as many as possible before trying to speed things up as @delcrossv suggested. It's easier to slow down than speed up.

dabrakeman

I will reiterate one of the above questions in that are you new to this system, or, do you know that the system has been fine in previous years and this is now a new problem? Also, do all of the 3rd floor radiators not get heat or just some of them?

A lack of sufficient main venting will lead to the takeoffs from the main that are further down the line from the boiler getting steam later than those closer to the boiler. You say you have a perimeter basement main. If your problem lines up with radiators fed from a takeoff further down the loop not getting heat fast enough then maybe it could be your problem. Since you say the problem is 3rd floor vs the bottom two then unless the three floors are fed completely from different takeoffs from the main dedicated to that floor then this probably is not your main problem. Without speculating endlessly give us a bit more information regarding the layout of your system. For instance do the risers coming off the basement main feed a portion of each floor (likely) or does each floor have its own riser off the main and some kind of loop from that dedicated riser feeds the radiators on that floor (less likely)? Maybe a sketch?? How is the boiler sizing (boiler sqft vs total connected radiator sqft)?

I think it is jumping the gun but you could take the radiator vent out of one or more of those 3rd floor radiators and if you still don't get good steam up there then there is likely a water blockage somewhere that would have to be traced.

Have you verified that the main vent that is there is working? (Vents air but does not vent steam)?

Jamie Hall

I'm going to jump back a bit here, although one question has already been asked.

First, did it ever work evenly? Do you know?

Second, and a little less obvious: is the radiation on each floor more or less similar, and more or less related to the probable heat loss on that floor? Or do the first and second floors have more or bigger radiators, or perhaps better insulation? Is there insulation in the roof or the attic? One can do a great deal with varying the venting — but if there is a fundamental mismatch between radiation and heat loss, it may be difficult.

bburd

The steam pipes appear to be uninsulated; that will certainly slow down steam distribution and burn more fuel. 1 inch thick fiberglass is standard practice and is not available at big box stores; local plumbing and heating suppliers or supplyhouse.com should have it.

Also, the cycle time at the thermostat may be too short to get steam to the top floor. What kind of thermostat do you have? Pictures?

SC

Google Gorton air vents.

They will display a diagram of a house and show which air vents should do where. Draw a diagram of your building showing each floor and each room with radiators and/or riser pipes (on the top floor). Note which is the northside of the building and where the thermostat is located. Is the building attached on both side or is it semi-attached. Pipe insulation throughout the basement is very important as well. I found Gorton website very helpful in balancing a system. Pressuretrol settings also come into play.

Good luck!

leaking

Do vents not close and not Hiss? Do vents open and get hot ? Are they real old? Are they same brand and venting? It worked new and for years. I have a 12 unit Chicago . What I will say is its unbalanced, it worked fine new and for many years but you don’t know what your doing . I can’t say I do, I can’t see your place or know what’s supposed to be in place . One thought is you have sagging runs . I fixed my imbalance by double venting radiators with Gorton D on cold farthest radiators and Gorton 4 on closest . But I custom make my Gortons into a 2/3 2 or three by taking the Thin Aluminum duct tape , put over vent hole and use a pin to make a small hole so just a bit of air comes out. I use these on hot oversized radiators. Check the angle of your radiator, One Pipe? It needs an angle to drain . Vents fail ! When they don’t seal you don’t get Max heat out of a radiator. It’s a lot of work. I would first check they drain - are not level the radiators . Mains are angled. New vents or Clean with Vinegar , put D or double D Gorton cold units and put radiator covers or try my Aluminum Tape and pin hole trick . Choke the hot areas , open the cold areas. I’m SSide Chicago . 57th Kedzie . It’s a big DIY job. I have remote thermometers to monitor apartments , have FUN hasahaaaahaa . I have my 12 unit to heat within a few degrees in each apartment, it took years, but I don’t live there and tenants don’t like landlord in their apartment unless they are home. Good luck it’s a job to do this properly.

RalphsHVAC

Two things to try.

1st - overfill the boiler to confirm there is no above the water line leaks. You could be sending steam up the chimney instead of to the radiators.

2nd - Clock you gas meter ( pleanty of videos of how to do this) with only the boiler operating to confirm it is close to firing rate.

If underfired it will not fill the system. Do not raise gas pressure on your own. You need to check combustion. But at least you will know what to tell a pro to check and adjust.

Bill_Kitsch69

Not even enough information here to diagnose. Check radiator pitch.

RavensNester

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1815932#Comment_1815932

I check the pitch on my radiators each year at the beginning of the heating season and on more than one occasion have had to re pitch several of the same radiators. Especially in old houses (mine was built in 1913) settling is a continuous and slow process.

Steamhead

@RavensNester , since you're in Chicago, get in touch with @The Steam Whisperer . He's as good as it gets.

delcrossv

+1 on @The Steam Whisperer

Sootmaster

Every time I've run in to this problem it's been a lack of horse power. The steam/vapor is just sitting on the lower floors like the morning fog on a beautiful Chicago meadow.

Do you need to throw a log on the fire?

leaking

are all pipes stripped of their installed insulation?? They were all insulated at one time.

delcrossv

Horsepower? Nah. It's a venting issue. Insulation won't help either if the riser is full of air.

Jamie Hall

Venting. The lack of horsepower theory is why people turn up the pressure… and turn it up some more. And then wonder why things don't work.

The steam will go quite happily, at almost no pressure at all, to wherever it can condense. But if there is air in the way, nope.

delcrossv

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1816047#Comment_1816047

Quoted For Truth.

mikespipe

the first thing to do is to insulate all the basement pipes with 1 inch or thicker insulation. 1 inch thick allows you to score some insulation out and go right over the fittings. the pipes where ment to be insulated and every pipe is a radiator. your problem is common when the asbestos was removed and nothing replaced it. the cost of the insulation will probably be saved every year in reduced heating costs. we have a plumbing supply in the Bronx and many times. when we have this discussion, we hear back that every thing is perfect after replacing the insulation.

mikespipe

part of the problem is you lose so much heat to the basement that the temperature of the steam drops and you lose pressure as the water condences and returns to the boiler. the insulation allows the steam to travel from the boiler to the risers without losing heat or pressure. Do the insulation first you will not be disappointed.

ethicalpaul

Sorry to disagree, but while insulation can be nice and help to prevent some small amount of heat from going where you don't want it, there is no common steam boiler problem that can be solved by it in a typical residential or small multi-unit application.

There is one exception I have seen a few times where a steam main travels through a nearly unconditioned space such as a drafty crawlspace, a freezing cold garage, or even outside on its way to conditioned space.

But for a typical residential / small building basement, you are just losing a few BTU and that loss is more than covered by the rather insane oversizing we see in almost every installation, even the prescribed 33% pipe loss factor in steam boiler sizing, if actually followed, provides more than enough for any low-pressure system piping, insulated or not.

Especially in the shoulder seasons such as right now, the pipe is going to get cool between calls for heat regardless of insulation. Where is the increase in speed then?

By no means should it be the first step to solve a balance problem like this. That is wasted time and money that won't get heat to these cold radiators. Sorry to be so blunt, but I don't want someone spending money and getting no result.

mikespipe

I have had numerous customers that have had heating issues that where solved when the insulation that the system was designed for was replaced. the first time years ago the customer wanted to buy new larger radiators. after questions it was determined that his basement was laundry and storage, and his pipes where not insulated. He bought insulation for the 2 inch mains and the next day came back every thing was perfect he bought the rest of the insulation for the branches and risers and has been a loyal customer ever since. the rule of thumb, that every degree you heat a space is, 3 percent of your heating cost for that space . if your basement is to hot and you reduce that heat with insulation you will save money. putting insulation on yourself is the cheapest way to reduce your heating bill.

ethicalpaul

We definitely disagree. I think I've said all I can constructively say about it. Everyone can decide whose math they agree with. Cheers!

mikespipe

Please let us know what you did and in what order. and what differences you found. I still recommend doing the insulation first but 4s on the first and c and ds on the top will help. Did you make any changes when you changed the boiler. If it worked before and the only change was they removed the asbestos insulation, do that first as that would be the major change.

clammy

just wonder is that header 24 inches above the water line ? It seems quite low for me . Aside from no insulation on your mains as you stated which some say does not matter . lol it does ! A header which does not have enough vertical rise to it will just throw wet steam into the mains which will not do well for anything and ruin any thoughts of quick steam distribution. Depending upon the length of your steam main and dry return I would think that a single gorton say not surfice . It really sounds like you need to contact a professinal who is versed in steam systems especially 2 pipe systems other wise you shall be chasing your tail and wasting time ,money and fuel .
peace and good luck clammy

SamEnergyPlus

This is what I have recently done on a 6 story top floor apartments, when the risers aren't exposed.