Am I missing something here?

cniessen1

I requested a quote from a well-respected company that serves eastern Massachusetts. I have a Weil-McLain P-468-S with a DHW coil thats 30 years old and has started to leak.

I got a quote for an PEG-40 with an undersized (2" vs the 2 1/2" specified by the manufacturer) header, and an external gas DHW heater. I asked to bump up to a PEG-45, increase the header to the manufacturer recommended 2 1/2" and include the DHW coil.

The response was "whoa, those requirements are too far from the norm, so we won't quote it anymore." Huh? I can't tell if they just didn't like that I asked for something other than the exact cookie-cutter job they wanted. But I wanted to get a sanity check here; is there something I'm missing here that makes my request unreasonable?

(FYI, I asked to go up to the PEG-45 because for my 400 sq ft EDR, the PEG-40 they quoted seems to use a 5% pickup factor. I have long runs through uninsulated walls. My current boiler is rated for 465 EDR, 149K DOE capacity, and in the 20 years I've lived here, short cycling has never been a problem. The model they recommend (based on their "average" house in my area) is only rated for 321 sq ft / 103K BTU/hr, so about 1/3 smaller than what's there. The PEG-45 is still smaller than the current, but not by as much, so it seemed like the more appropriate size. They thought I was crazy to ask for that.)

So I'm looking for someone else. Anyone ever use Daniel Cadotte? Finding someone who can actually do the job has been a problem. Lots of people listed on this sight don't answer, or don't work beyond their immediate area.

EdTheHeaterMan

I have never recommended using one burner in a boiler that is vented to a chimney to be a combination heater and hot water source. It is just wasteful. A separate tank is always better than a tankless coil. The most efficient tank would be an indirect tank. The option that your contractor offered is another good choice.

there is another steam boiler company in the eastern part of Mass. called New England Steamworks

Danny Scully

If they’re unwilling to install the manufacturers specified header size, they’ve lost contention.

The EG-45 sounds like a better choice if your connected radiation is 400.

If you have a coil now and are comfortable with its performance, I see no issues in requested the coil.

cniessen1

Thanks. Steamworks is the one who won't quote the job after I asked a couple of questions.

As an aside, I hear the common point about "keeping all that mass hot" and the expense, but just looking at the math of it, I'm not sure its as bad as people say.

Looking at my usage, I use about 1 therm (100K BTU) per day in the summer (that includes cooking gas, but I'll ignore that). If thats a couple of showers, some laundry, the dishwasher, thats like 75 gallons per day roughly. And the incoming water is like 50 degrees, so to get it to something like 120 degrees thats about 44K BTU of energy going into the water (75gals times 70 degree rise times 8.333 btu per gallon per degree), so like 44% efficient or so. During heating season, its much, much higher since the boiler's already running to make steam. So probably >60% on average since I heat about 6 months a year. A pretty standard gas water heater like they quoted has an EPA efficiency (UEF) of about 65% all year long. (You can definitely do better; just comparing apples to apples.) So the difference isn't all that enormous. Is the external one probably better? Sure, but its like like 20% better in the summer (about $10), less in the winter. So payback on the $2K+ to install it actually takes a while…. My numbers might be a little off (75 gals/day is probably a little high), but its not like the all-year average is 25% or anything, so its not as cut-and-dry as it sometimes seems

But in my case, I want to actually use the DHW loop on the boiler as a "pre-heater" to feed the input on a heat-pump water heater (because I'd actually like to use less energy) so that I get the efficiency of the boiler in the winter and efficiency of the heat pump in the summer. But that level of complexity clearly caused Ryan's head to explode when I mentioned it, so I said "just replace like with like and put in boiler with a DHW coil plumbed exactly as it is and I'll worry about the hybrid part later". So maybe the fact that I was thinking about my heating system vs just clicking "accept" on the original quote made him not want to work with me.

(Note: edited to remove specific pricing info.)

John Ruhnke

I agree with Ed,

Running that boiler 24/7 to make dhw and sending energy up that chimney is wasteful. Also this energy loss is not accounted for in our AFUE energy standard. They don't run the AFUE test to see what happens once the boiler is off and all that air moves through the combustion chamber and up the chimney. Cold start boilers save a lot of money in energy. Maybe instead of the coil you could get a wall hung condensing water heater? or separate indirect tank would be better than a coil.

If you get a HWHP don't use the boiler as a preheater. Set up the boiler to run in cold start while making steam only. The energy losses up that chimney are huge.

Jamie Hall

If Ryan won't quote the job, I have a distinct feeling that we don't have the whole story here…

cniessen1

Thanks. I'm basing the measured efficiency of my boiler (i.e. what I'm currently paying) vs the EPA stated efficiency of a separate water heater. So any inefficiencies in the cooling of the chamber, etc, is in there for my boiler, and if the EPA is over-stating the efficiency of a gas powered water heater, then the comparison is even less compelling. I'm no kidding using 1 therm/day for everything, including all losses. Not theoretical based on EPA ratings but measured.

But to get things back to the point of the question, is my request such that a reputable installer will flat-out not do it on principle? So asking someone to install a boiler with a DHW coil is just not doable because everyone disagrees with it? (Not asking if its the best choice, only if its sufficiently bad that no one will be willing to do it.)

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812205#Comment_1812205

Hi Jamie-

I know you're a big fan of Steamworks, and I'm literally asking if there is something here that I'm missing. At the risk of boring everyone, here is the complete correspondence with Ryan. Please tell me what I'm missing.

I started with a quote request on their website, provided details on all of the radiators, and pictures of the current system. I requested that all piping be done in accordance with the manufacturers specification at a minimum, and asked that they install a hybrid water heater.

I got a quote with a 2" header and for a PEG-40, and a standard gas water heater, so I sent:

Hi Ryan-

Can you please make the following modifications and re-quote: 

- Please change the header to 2 1/2 inch per the manufacturer’s specification: , Table 7, page 17 

- Please quote for an EG-45 instead of EG-40.  I’m on the edge and I know how poorly insulated my house is. 

- Please change the water heater to a 50 gallon hybrid 

- Please include the DHW loop on the EG-45 and plumb as pre-heater to the hybrid water heater 

- Please let me know if you can invoice the water heater installation work separately; its eligible for a federal tax credit.
Once we get the quote fixed up, we can proceed.

He responded with:

1. Weil McLain specs ONE 2-1/2” riser. We build with TWO 2” risers, which is considerably more volume. If you want just ONE 2-1/2” riser, we will build it at no additional charges, but we do not recommend.
2. It wouldn’t matter if you went to an EG-55, -you cannot heat your home any warmer with a larger boiler. Only waste energy. In a steam heating system the size of the existing radiators is the sole determination of the heating capacity of the system, unlike hot water systems. The EG-40 is the correct size. If you need or want more heat, you would first need more (or larger) radiators.
3. We do not install hybrid water heaters.
4. Is the loop solely for the water heater, or do you actually have a baseboard loop in the home that requires one?

Thanks.

So I responded with

Thank you for your reply. 

1.  I’m asking for a 2 1/2 header. It should be fed by the two 2” risers as per the manufacturer. Your quote specified a 2” header. I didn’t ask for a change in the risers. 

2.  I believe that the construction of my house and routing of the steam pipes through uninsulated walls requires more than a 5% pickup factor, which would push me to the EG-45. I’m not trying to heat my house ‘faster’. I’m trying to properly balance the system for existing conditions. 

3. Ok. I’ll need to get the new DHW heater installed first then by another plumber. 

4. There is no baseboard loop. The one baseboard radiator I currently have is fed by steam. 

Thank you. 

He updated the quote to add the optional upcharge for the 2 1/2" header and the EG-45, but didn't say anything about the DHW coil. So I responded with:

Thanks. Does this quote include the version of the EG with the DHW coil?  I didn’t see it called out. 

His response was:

It does not.

He generated a new quote, but didn't seem different from the previous ones, so I sent him:

Hi Ryan

I don’t see any change in the online quote, and no mention of the DHW loop.  Lets make this simpler: please quote for replacing the existing boiler with a DHW coil with a new boiler with a DHW coil.  So replace the existing with a new one plumbed the same way.  I’ll add the hybrid DHW heater later.   No external DHW heater.

Thanks

And the final answer from him was:

We’re going to decline to quote Christopher. We’re too busy, and your requirements are deviating too far from the norm, which in our many years of experience inevitably means problems. We try very hard to avoid those.

While I understand that Steamworks is busy, I'd say its unlikely that the main reason they are declining my job is because they went from not too busy a few days ago when they were updating the quotes, to too busy as the the primary reason they declined to do the job. So I'm asking if my request is that far out of the norm, or was I rude in some way? I started out asking for something somewhat complex, but kept trying to simplify the job to keep them in their comfort zone, but I don't seem to have succeeded.

Thanks-

-chris

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812197#Comment_1812197

Hi John-

I'm not sure I'm tracking the comment about not using the boiler as a preheater. To clarify, the idea is that the water feeding the hybrid water heater passes through the DHW coil on its way in but the boiler is not wired with the temperature control you normally have in a DHW loop. If the boiler is firing due to the thermostat calling for heat, then the water going to the water heater is pre-warmed. If the thermostat isn't calling for heat, then the water just doesn't get warmed and comes in at the street water temp. So the boiler is never fired just to heat DHW, but if its is firing anyway, we take advantage of that.

The hybrid water heater pulls heat from the room to heat the water. In the summer, thats great, it cools my basement, and the boiler never runs from May - September. In the winter, when the basement is already cold (1920s fieldstone, not well insulated), then some of the water heating gets done by the boiler since its warm a lot of the time anyway, and it doesn't make the basement any colder. So its just "parasitic" heating, so boiler inefficiencies never hurt it; they're suffered anyway associated with heating the house.

I recognize its not typically how people do it, but I've seen talk on this board about people who've done it, and I've yet to see any particular downside (other than the cost of the DHW coil on the boiler, and a couple of extra pieces of pipe increasing installation costs). So if there's some other reason not to do it, I'm all ears.

Thanks!

John Ruhnke

cniessen1,

yes that makes sense to me. Also in that case you are pulling energy out of the boiler while it sits unfired and putting it in the dhw heater. This sends less air up the chimney. The laws of physics work for you rather than against you when you maintain heat in the boiler for the dhw coil all year round.

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812195#Comment_1812195

Thanks. A lot of people on the board like Steamworks, and they seem to do good work, so I wanted to see if I could nudge them to do it, but I honestly was surprised that they pushed back on the header size too.

To be fair, they're not unwilling to install the manufacturer's specified size; they don't unless you ask, and its an upcharge to do it. But they might be willing to do that if that's the only change you ask for…

Thanks-

-chris

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812219#Comment_1812219

Thanks! Now I just have to find a licensed plumber that agrees with us….

Jamie Hall

May I humbly submit that I agree with @New England SteamWorks ? They are quite busy, and they are completely free to decline a job which is effectively being designed by someone else. They guarantee their work — let me emphasize their work — but not, understandably, work designed by others.

I hope that you can find a contractor who will help you.

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812222#Comment_1812222

That's kind of the point; is asking for a slightly increased boiler size, a normal DHW coil and a properly sized header "effectively designed by someone else"? I'm trying to understand if as a homeowner I can ask for anything or if I just have to take whatever is offered, lock, stock and barrel? My final request was so simple I'm at a bit of a loss. Yes they're busy, and they absolutely have the right to refuse. But before I waste more time trying to get something installed, I'm trying to get calibrated as to what is "reasonable" and what is not. Was my request unreasonable? I'm not picking a fight or anything; I need to get this thing replaced and there are only a few contractors that serve this area and I don't want to piss them all off, so I'm trying to get a sense of if I need to learn to just "shut up and color".

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have never heard that Steamworks would not stand behind a job they installed. Are you sure you have the EDR for your existing radiators calculated correctly?

LRCCBJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812223#Comment_1812223

Sadly, we find this behavior everywhere today. Most contractors, whether highly skilled, or not, want to do the job THEIR WAY. THEIR WAY might not be what you desire and you logically have laid out your reasons for changing "THEIR WAY". Sadly, their egos get in the way and they simply decline to work with what you need for "YOUR WAY".

For the record, nobody should ever use a 2" header with TWO 2" risers. That is simply incompetent and shows that they don't understand steam velocities at all.

I have installed a 4" header with TWO 2.5" risers. The steam velocity SLOWS in the header…………..which is exactly what you want.

BTW, you can forget the argument of "stand behind". Unless the system will not heat the building whatsoever, good luck with attempting to get anyone to "stand behind".

Your argument is valid. Get someone to do it "YOUR WAY".

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812226#Comment_1812226

Yeah, I was concerned about that too. I had started down this road with steamworks last year too, and ran into some of the same problems, which is why I stopped trying to ask them why they were doing things (which they didn't see to appreciate) and instead just try being clear about what I was looking for. So last year, when they recommended an EG-40, I asked exactly the same thing to see if I was making a mistake in my EDR calculations. (On the steamworks website, you just put in your radiator types & sizes, not EDR.) So I asked them how they sized the EG-40, and if I had possibly made a mistake, but the answer was just

Your boiler is sized correctly. We do this for a living, to the exclusion of anything else. We are very good at it.

so I followed up with

I’m sure you have a lot of experience but your ability to size the boiler is only as accurate as the information I provided you on the form. I’m trying to understand if I might have entered the data wrong which is why I gave you the sq ft I had measured to see if what I provided was different from what I had intended.  Or perhaps you’re using a different pick up factor. I don’t know, so I’m trying to head off any misunderstandings early. 

And he responded

The average EDR of all of your radiators matched almost exactly the historical average of all the hundreds of homes we have done through the years. You did just fine. There is a 33% pickup factor included in boiler ratings, which was standardized in the 1920s and is excessive.

So I never really got an answer to where the discrepency came from. I re-engaged based on the strength of the endorsement from people like Jamie, but still haven't cracked the nut of how to work with them.

In case anyone wants to check my math, I've got

(3) 38" high, 8 section 3 column radiators,

(2) 38" high 6 section 3 column radiators,

(1) 38" high 7 section 3 column radiators,

(1) 20x8x5 convector,

(1) 20" high 16 section 5 tube radiator

(1) 22" high 16 section 3 column radiator

(1) 10"x60"x2.5" baseboard

Which I calculate to 400 sq ft EDR.

Also, my current boiler (rated for 465 EDR) should be short cycling if I was way off on my EDR calculations, but it isn't, so I don't think I'm wildly off. He's definitely right that 33% is a very high pickup factor for modern houses (we discussed this on the board at length when I first started down that journey), but I think that for my house (which is not materially different than it was when constructed in 1925) 5% (which seems to be what steamworks is using) is too low.

And to be fair, they aren't refusing to stand behind their install; they're just not willing to install a system with a DHW loop and a properly sized header.

Thanks-

-chris

LRCCBJ

5% (which seems to be what steamworks is using) is too low.

We have had significant discussion on pickup factors and we generally agree that anything close to 33% is excessive. When you get down below 10% it gets a bit dicey in terms of balancing the system so that all rooms heat evenly. The contractor WILL NOT return to your house to assist with this. Be assured of that. You would need to adjust the radiator venting incrementally so that the building is balanced at design (0F ??) Otherwise some rooms will be much colder than others despite the fact that the boiler is running NONSTOP at design.

This approach can be successful but it requires relentless work BY THE HOMEOWNER to perfect it.

Do you want to do that?

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812241#Comment_1812241

To be clear, I'm not looking to use 33%. Everyone agrees that's too high. My choices for the EG series boilers are 321 sq ft (5% pickup) or 388 sq ft (about 26%). Given that my current boiler does not short cycle, dropping back by 30% from the current size to the EG-40 feels like too much. Am I knowingly making that choice and aware of the consequences? Absolutely. I've tried to make it abundantly clear that my requests are based on the reasoning I've been able to gather, and I'm open to other approaches, but I haven't seen any particular logic that says going a little too small is the best choice. There's no goldilocks perfect sizing here, but given my empirical evidence of how my house has been behaving for the currently installed heating system, the EG-45 seems closer. (And, FYI, when I contacted another well-respected contractor from this board, he told me I was crazy to use anything smaller than the EG-50.)

I'm not looking for someone to come running over ever time I hear a radiator bang; I just want someone who is competent (which Ryan clearly seems to be) to install something that makes sense (and is willing to spend 30 seconds to say why its the right choice), and I don't seem to be able to get there.

Sorry, this has been overall a very frustrating experience, and I'm not sure what the best way to move forward is at this point.

John Ruhnke

As far as balancing a system, Why not simply use a thermostatic radiator vent on each radiator then you don't have to do any of that. Everything will automatically balance!

pecmsg

if you dictated how I was to do my job I would probably decline the work.
your paying for my Ed and experience. That not negotiable!

cniessen1

By the way, can you expand on your comment:

You would need to adjust the radiator venting incrementally so that the building is balanced at design (0F ??) Otherwise some rooms will be much colder than others despite the fact that the boiler is running NONSTOP at design.

If I'm understanding your statement right, this can happen with an oversize boiler? (Since you seem to be advocating for going for the smaller size; apologies if that's a misinterpretation.) If the system is oversize and continually running, that must mean that some radiator vent isn't closing, right? That room would get awfully hot, wouldn't it? Sure, if things aren't balanced right the rooms will be at very different temps. Are you suggesting that I could get into a situation where the boiler continues to fire, some rooms are comfortable, and some are cold? I can't picture how that would happen. Can anyone explain that? Sorry if its obvious…

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812248#Comment_1812248

Please tell me where I'm dictating! I'm serious! What part of it was excessive? Is it the header? Wanting a tankless coil instead of a standalone heater? Choosing the EG-45 instead of the EG-40? I really, honestly, truly, don't know where I'm overstepping!

Jamie Hall

First off, this sort of thing can happen with any boiler which is close to the correct size — even rather undersized. Being oversized won't make the condition better — or worse.

Second, if the boiler is continuously running, it either isn't oversized or the pressure control device is not functioning correctly.

And… if the radiator in a given room is undersized for the heat loss in that room, that room will be cooler. Even with the biggest vent you can put on it. Similarly, if the radiator is oversized for the space, the room may overheat, even with a slow vent. Keep in mind that the radiator will fill with steam and, sooner or later when it is full, the vent will close. So long as the boiler is firing, however, that radiator will deliver its rated output: 240 BTUh per effective square foot, more or less. Closing the vent doesn't prevent steam from getting in — all it does is prevent any remaining air from getting out. And so long as steam can get in, it will condense and more steam will come in and so on.

Now. If the system venting — starting with the main vents — is badly balanced, what will happen is that some radiators will get steam significantly sooner than others — and those rooms may overheat, while radiators which get steam slower will be in rooms which are cool. This problem, paradoxically perhaps, is worse in moderate weather, as the thermostat location may get warm enough to shut the system off before the slower radiators have a chance to heat much, if at all!

John Ruhnke

chnlessen1,

I don't believe you are over stepping. A contractor should be willing to work with you unless what you want to do won't work. One problem might be the season. Right now we are heading into heating season. Everyone wants there boiler changed out. It is the wrong time of year to be trying to get this kind of work done. I am sure Steamworks has a extremely busy schedule right now and isn't ready for what he considers headaches. I would try back in the spring or early summer when the steam work load is lighter. Then he would have more time to work with somebody like you. You will also get a better job because they have more time to spend on your project.

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812252#Comment_1812252

Hi Jamie-

All that makes sense; the context seemed to imply that this imbalance was more likely to occur if the system was oversized, which is the part I'm not tracking. The problem you describe seems to be associated with the problem of improperly sized radiators; having lived in my house for a while, the Dead Men seem to have done OK on putting enough sq ft per room. And fully tracking on the need for proper venting; I replaced the tiny vents I had with Gorton G2s years ago to try and help with that. Any system needs to be properly balanced. Since (as near as I can tell) the thing that seems to be most controversial in my case is the EG-40 vs EG-45, I was trying to suss out if the larger one was more likely to cause balance problems.

Thanks-

-chris

EdTheHeaterMan

Interesting story here. There was a Salesman for on of the large oil refiners in the Philadelphia area named Chuck Nail. When he retired he went to work as a consultant for a local fuel dealer that I also worked for. During one of our lunch meetings at the local diner, he mentioned that 80% of a companies problems come from 20% of their customers. (just an anecdotal sales statistic). Then he went on to say. "If you had a crystal ball and could see which of those 20% of your customers were the problem customers, how wonderful business would be if you decided not to accept those customers in the first place?"

I just thought this was an interesting story.

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812257#Comment_1812257

I guess I figured professionals would prefer to work with people who understood their system and wouldn't call them about nuisance things or unreasonable things ("You just replaced my boiler and now my roof is leaking. It must be your fault."). I guess anyone who takes an interest in why choices are made one way or the other are problematic. The good customers are the ones who just send the check, no questions asked.

Jamie Hall

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812258#Comment_1812258

Absolutely not true. However, when a professional makes a professional judgement that something is correct in his experience, it is a little disconcerting to be told it isn't. I, for instance, might ask why they made the judgement calls they did — but unless I had more experience and training, it would be for me to learn.

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812260#Comment_1812260

100% agree, and I asked "why did you make that choice? How did you size the boiler?" That got me labeled as a problem customer (not explicitly by them; they just chose to decline to work with me. Ed implied the reasoning). I offered up additional information about the house they didn't have to make sure they had everything they needed. Judgement is best when its fully informed. I'd love to learn from them. Truly would if I could get them to explain any decision to me. Suggestions on how to do that? What should I ask differently?

EdTheHeaterMan

Actually I didn't suggest that you were a problem customer. I just thought it was an interesting story.

The fact that you were asking questions that seem to indicate that the professional's recommendations were different from your understanding of what should be done might indicate to that particular professional that one of his competitors might be a better fit for you. I thought his final response was polite, and to the point.

another interesting story:

To start with, I have been maintaining this customer's oil burner for over 8 years and she trusted me with that.

This particular customer wanted manual radiator valves installed on all of her old radiators. The old Victorian home was chopped up into a rooming house. When some of the rooms were divided by partition walls to make more rooms available to rent, some of the large radiators ended up in small rooms and some of the other radiators were moved or removed to accommodate the new floor plan. Carpenters often do stuff with no regard to the HVAC system. So some of the tenants would have the windows wide open in the middle of the winter. (I remember talking with one particularly attractive Coast Guard officer who was renting one of the warmer rooms)

After suggesting that she would be better off with thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) and several long conversations with her and her daughter, she finally agreed to sign a contract to replace only 5 of the valves on the radiators that were located in the 5 hottest rooms. She was definitely a problem customer at this point.

On the day we started the work, I went to the basement to drain the water from the system, and sent a helper to start to remove the 5 valves. He had to use the SPUD wrench and was finished removing 2 of the valves when the customer stopped us and insisted that we only replace the valves with manual ones.

That is when I said to my helper to start putting on the original old valves and we are leaving the job. The customer was aghast and asked why? My reply was that: "we don't work that way, you can not change the contract in the middle of the first day and that I would rather she take her work elsewhere. I will put the system back the way I found it. and I will return all her deposit money." Once she understood that I was going to leave her as her oil burner service company, she allowed the TRVs to be installed. That winter her oil usage went from over 4000 gallons to under 3000 gallons, saving amounting to about 1.2 times the cost of the actual work for the new TRVs. The following summer she asked for all the valves to have those TRVs added.

@cniessen1, I understand that you have questions about the specifications, and that you want what you want, but if you let the professional do their job, you may be pleasantly surprised.

My customer wanted to control the heat with manual valves. I knew better!

cniessen1

So I can learn from this experience, is the problem that I asked for an EG-45 instead of an EG-40? That's where I went wrong? That's the big violation of the line between interested homeowner and experienced professional?

The tankless coil vs external DHW thing - surely thats not the problem, right? Some people just like long draws of hot water, 45 minute showers, whatever, even if its less efficient. Thats just a lifestyle choice, no right or wrong.

And I'm hoping the advice I'm getting isn't to trust the contractor over the manufacturer and accept an undersized header? Is that what you all would do on your house?

@cniessen1, I understand that you have questions about the specifications, and that you want what you want, but if you let the professional do their job, you may be pleasantly surprised.

I'm interpreting that to mean that having questions about the specifications is not letting them do their job? Everything I asked for began with "why is it this way? Here's what makes me think otherwise. Please tell me where I've made a mistake." Never "here's where you're wrong."

I started this thread to know what I should be doing differently. So far the only advice I've gotten is "just let them do it their way." Some people seem to think its reasonable to ask questions, some think that questions imply that the contractor's judgement isn't right; you should just let them get on with it however they see fit. Is that the consensus?

Jamie Hall

This sort of thing is genuinely very difficult — particularly if the communication, or even part of it, was not in person. This isn't just about heating — it's true about any communication. Unless the two parties know each other — in person — very well, electronic communication (even telephone, never mind text — and video calls aren't much better) is very likely to lead to miscommunication.

Now in this instance, without having been there at all, I can see several places where this may have happened — and damaged the essential trust which has to exist.

I am not here to counsel anyone — I do that all the time, but in another guise. All I can really suggest is that asking why and listening is often better than saying something like "but I want". It sounds as though you may have at least tried to do that, so I don't know what went wrong.

dabrakeman

I'm sure if it wasn't nearly October the communication would have been better. There is a lot of discussion about how optimally you can size systems with low pickup factors and I am sure NE Steamworks is as educated in that as anyone both in theory and local experience. You are actually lucky to have a company like that near you. Not so lucky here in Michigan.

Assuming for now that they were trying to optimize your sizing with the PEG-40 then the two 2" risers with a 321sqft boiler would give an exceptionally good (low) steam velocity in the risers, 16ft/s to be exact. Anything less than 25ft/s is considered good according to LAOSH and will likely not bring any water up into the header as long as the header is not below proper height above the water line. Therefore, the 32ft/s expected in the 2" header is of little concern since there wouldn't be much of any water content to separate out in the header anyway. I think @ethicalpaul had previously made this argument supported by his videos. Sure the 2.5" header would give a lower header velocity (23ft/s) but if it isn't needed then it just costs (you) money. They could have gone by the manual minimum that a single 2.5" riser was OK with a 2.5" header which would have a riser steam velocity of 23ft/s with same in the header. I'd take the lower riser velocity. Look at it this way, WM also says that for an EG-50 that a single 2.5" riser into a 2.5" riser is OK which would give a riser and header velocity of 32ft/s.

Remember your average HVAC company would have walked in there and just looked at the current boiler and spec'd a PEG-50 (or 55) lucky to be piped with a single 2.5" riser and a 2.5" header. As a fellow homeowner I do not think your questions were unreasonable and you should have gotten a little more explanation of where they were coming from but as mentioned I just have to guess they did not have time for your job this year, period. Are you sure you can't hold off till Spring and sit down with them then for some good face to face discussion?

PC7060

I agree with @New England SteamWorks. Having ran engineering groups for over 25 years, I’ve learned to back away from projects when we can’t get to a mutually acceptable plan in a reasonable time. Time is money and if it looks like we can’t get to yes, it’s time to move on.
Ryan clearly explained they were very busy and he had reservations on the direction you wanted to go and politely declined the business

His call, time to move on.




LRCCBJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812249#Comment_1812249

You are correct in that it WILL happen with any boiler. If you have a sufficient pickup factor, you have MORE steam than you can utilize once the system is fully heated. With MORE steam your process to adjust venting becomes significantly easier.

The opposite case is when you have very little additional steam available. You might have trouble to get that steam to remote radiators and a vent adjustment on a single radiator will likely affect the others in a significant way. Balancing is much more difficult when you have little to no pickup factor.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I feel like Steamworks has installed hundreds of boilers and is making a judgement call that based on the radiation installed and the PU factor that the smaller boiler will do the job.

You can trust their judgment or go in another direction.

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812358#Comment_1812358

I have no doubt that on average they are right. In an average house, with insulated walls, and insulated pipes, the heat loss from the piping would be minimal, so sizing the boiler to the radiator square footage with a little bit extra to compensate for the losses through the insulation is 100% right, If that were my condition, I'd go with them too. That's what all of my neighbors have. So it makes sense that its the right thing to do on the average.

In my house, there is no insulation. None in the walls (where the steam pipes run). None on the pipes. (There are reasons why the basement piping is uninsulated, but that's not relevant here.) So for my house, and I calculated it, there is an additional 60 square feet of radiating surface from the distribution piping. If I have 400 sq ft EDR of radiators (which includes 33% pickup factor), that's about 300 real sq ft of radiator, so in my case the real pickup factor is about 20%. If the pipes were insulated, it would be a lot lower. But it isn't.

So while the average is a great rule of thumb to start with, the conditions of the installation really can make a difference. Not every house is the same, even though that would make this a lot simpler.

Jamie Hall

You have steam. Steam heat is not based on the square footage of the house or the insulation in the walls. Those have nothing to do with it.

Now I notice that all of a sudden I see a new figure for the installed radiation: 300 square feet. There is no "pickup factor" in measuring the EDR of the installed radiation. So what is the actual installed radiation? 300 square feet? 400 square feet? What is it?

The "pickup factor" also includes an allowance for the piping — that is not added in to anything, unless it is very unusual. If the piping is insulated, a smaller factor can be used (and probably should be). The pickup factor, however, is included in the boiler rating for square feet of steam. This is why you can sometimes use a boiler with a lower rating in a system, if the system is well insulated and simple — and why it is almost never necessary to use a boiler with a larger nameplate rating than the measured, real, EDR of the radiation being powered.

EBEBRATT-Ed

PG-40 is rated to output 321 square feet of steam if i am not mistaken. That rating already includes a 'pic up factor" of 33% meaning the boiler can heat 426 square feet with the piping already hot. This is plenty large enough if you have 300 square feet installed.

If you have 400 square feet installed it still levees you 26 square feet extra or 6000 btus extra.

As Jamie mentioned insulation make no difference capacity wise the boiler must be large enough to fill all the radiation and piping with steam that is all there is to it.

Keep in mind that most home have much more radiation installed than is actually needed. The boiler must still have the capacity to fill the radiation completely unless orifices on the radiation are used (2 pipe steam only) or TRVs (one pipe or two pipe)

The pick up factor come into play on a cold start or when coming out of night setback. Once all the piping & boiler is hot there is no need for a pick up factor.

cniessen1

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812403#Comment_1812403

With all due respect, steam heat is based on the total radiating surface of the system. Steam does not care if the heat is leaving through a radiator or through a distribution pipe. Whether or not a pipe is insulated sure does make a difference in sizing a steam system. So if the wall its going through is not insulated (because people don't typically insulate the pipes on their own in the wall; the pipe is effectively insulated only if the wall its traveling through is full of insulation), then it matters. You're right that the rate that heat leaves the house isn't part of the system design, It makes no difference if I've got 12" of fiberglass in my attic. But it does matter if the distribution pipe is encased in insulation, since that will impact the heat being distributed out of the system. If I've got 60 square feet of pipe radiating at 240 BTUs per square foot because they aren't insulated, that extra load matters.

And as you know, when people match a boiler rating to the EDR of their radiators, the rating on the boiler includes a 33% pickup factor. If we want to actually calculate a better value, rather than going with the Carbon Commission recommendation or a rule of thumb, we've got to take that pickup factor out first. So 400 sq ft EDR with a 33% pickup baked in is 300 sq ft + 33% (100 sq ft), so its 300 sq ft of "real" plus an assumed 100sq ft of pickup. Everyone says that 33% is too big, so lets get a better number for it. So if we're going to calculate the real value, take out the 33% factor, and then account for measured, instead of assumed piping heat loss. In this case, the real piping loss is about 20% (60 sq ft). 20% number (which is specific to the case where the pipes are as long as mine and radiate as much heat as mine; insulated pipes would be less) is probably understating it, but the point is that its big enough to make a difference.

So you can figure out the real number by taking the pickup out of the EDR calculations, or taking it out of the boiler rating; it doesn't matter, since you just compare the two of them. The point is to take out the pickup factor, then add in the real, measured loss from the system piping. Thats a more accurate number than some general rule of thumb.