What is the hole next to the boiler?
Comments
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At first, I thought it was PVC pipe. I was wrong.
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Where do you see PVC anything in that picture?
The boiler is piped bad but I don't see any PVC.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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What I is see is painted schedule 40 iron pipe.
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Take a pipe wrench and rap on your "PVC" steam pipes and see what they sound like. I think you will feel reassured.
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Why bad piping?
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What is in the hole? Since the returns look like they've been replaced the original returns may be buried under the floor.
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The hole in the floor? Who knows. Could be any number of things — have to be there and poke around.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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The header isn't built correctly. You can download an installation manual from any steam boiler manufacturer (try Peerless). I also can find a link to a Peerless document showing how a header is supposed to work. Here it is, I found it:
(I don't know why the site sometimes doesn't make links be links anymore…have you noticed this @Erin Holohan Haskell ? Edit: I think I made it a link with the extra step that @HeatingHelp.com described
You might also buy the book "We Got Steam Heat" available on this very site…I think it discusses this.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
your old boiler needed that to get rid of the water used for flushing. electronic LWCO not so much.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@CoachBoilermaker , obviously this is not the same house as in the main vent thread…………….
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
If the system is operating economically and with an acceptable noise level, then the "Bad Piping" ain't all that bad.
What Paul and others are talking about in the illustration on the left you have the Right "system supply" pipe connected with at tee fitting that feeds strait up and branches off to the header that connects the second System supply of the left. when compared to the manufacturers suggested diagram where the riser turns into the header then turns again to form a swing joint. A true steam guy would have put both system connections on the horizontal pipe. As I see it, the system is not that awful, and as long as it works don't fix what's not broke.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@ethicalpaul, unfortunately the site no longer automatically creates hyperlinks. It's just not a feature of this new text editor. I don't like it either and have shared this feedback with our software provider. You can highlight your text and insert a link using the link icon. Thanks for your patience with this extra step!
Forum Moderator
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Correct, this is a friend's boiler.
He is in the process of decommissioning it for heat pump or mini-split or whatever they are called
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Ok, so the diagram on the left is correct, where you have 2 vertical supply pipes. The swing joint diagram with only one horizontal pipe is not as good. In the actual photo of the system, it looks like the swing joint diagram.
In order to have the left diagram, you'd have to position the boiler exactly under the vertical supply pipe that already exists. Even the original Dead Men may not have done this, if this was the original location of the boiler? Based on where the vertical supply pipe is located, this may not even be possible. So, saying this boiler's piping is all wrong seems harsh and possibly inaccurate?
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@CoachBoilermaker said:
Ok, so the diagram on the left is correct, where you have 2 vertical supply pipes. The swing joint diagram with only one horizontal pipe is not as good. In the actual photo of the system, it looks like the swing joint diagram.
So, I may be misunderstanding what that statement actually means.
To be more clear: I made the illustration on the left to show what you have and to compare it to what is in the book. I have changed it a little to be more exact with the 45° elbows. So to say that the left diagram with two risers is correct and the diagram in the manufacturers instructions book is wrong is a little misleading, or you misunderstood my meaning.
The one of the right is what is in the book and the boiler piping in you picture is not at all like the one on the right. If the original installer were to understand what is in the book then the right illustration with 2 supply headers would be a more correct way to install it. So I doctored the one in the book on the left to show how the original installer may have better followed the instructions.
I offered this and the original illustration to better clarify the above statement by @ChrisJ about "Bad Piping" that you replied "Why Bad Piping?"
And I also qualified that it may not be all that bad, if it works and is noise free (no water hammer or banging). then don't fix what ain't broke..
I hope I made myself a little more clear.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I’ll make it clear, Ed 😂
TLDR: The one on the left, and the one in the photo are wrong
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
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But if it works, Paul. what would you recommend to someone with a very limited budget?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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He needs to keep it in place for when it really gets cold. Heat pumps, whether ducted or mini-split, don't work well in cold weather. And that boiler runs nicely when fitted with a Carlin EZ-Gas or Midco EC-200 gas burner.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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I don't recall any discussion of budget, or how well it runs, or if it's wise to repipe it. All I saw was a conversation of whether it was bad piping. It's piped wrong, that's all I'm saying.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Photo does not look like left diagram
How do you see the rising supply in the original photo?
Photo looks like the the right side diagram with swing joint.
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I have indicated the rising supply with the green arrow. The photo looks like the left diagram. There's not a correct header. In the two diagrams on the right, there is no place where the supply from the boiler continues straight up through a tee to the main like this.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Well to be fair, we don't know the severity of the winters where the friend lives…a heat pump could be fine.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Agree with @ethicalpaul on the incorrect design of the near boiler piping, but if the main, for the strait up thru the tee riser (green arrow), is pitched away from the boiler so that the condensate returns to the boiler in the same direction as the steam, then that design may work noise free since almost no condensate will find its way back down that boiler riser to cause the water hammer, or steam banging that will definitely happen with a counterflow condensate return to that header-less riser. So I'm still saying that there is no problem with the "WRONG PIPING" design, because it probably works just fine.
There are hundreds of thousands of steamers that never had a problem with the riser from the boiler going strait up the the main, a hundred years ago. Why is this any different?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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It can definitely work, we have seen supply pipes that simply become the main and they can also work. You saw on my boiler video that basically zero water gets above the boiler at all. The header isn't even needed in many cases. The condensation formed in the supply pipe and header is very minimal.
But that's not relevant to the question of if the boiler is piped according to manufacturer instructions.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Looks like he's in Westchester county NY. I'd prefer to not depend entirely on a heat pump there
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Actually, he removed it last winter. He uses pellet insert for fireplace for added heat. He is very budget conscious.
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