Gas atmospheric water heater ban

STEAM DOCTOR

Does anyone have any info? Is there a national ban going into effect? A state by state ban? Hearing different things and having trouble finding info. Thanks.

ethicalpaul

this should be an enlightened thread, filled with facts and honest discussion!! I look forward to it!

I see a ban on new unit sales in California starting in 2030, subject to the typical court fights, delay, and exceptions that always accompany these efforts. This is not a “we’re coming for your appliances”-style ban

on the other side, at least 20 states have passed laws banning any such ban.

I assume the reason you and I can’t find any other info is because people are saying things to spread FUD for their own purposes

https://plumbing-united.com/blog/californias-green-initiative-the-ban-on-gas-heaters-and-water-heaters-by-2030/

strangely, something kept me from pasting this link. I had to get “tricky” to get this here

HVACNUT

I wonder how many homes in the U.S. have no need for heat or AC, and have strictly a gas fired atmospheric water heater. It's gotta be at least a couple million, right? Camps? Military bases? Some Businesses, definitely.

This is the type of thing where I'll wait for the info to come to me. I'll keep my shovel in the shed for now.

Because this is so singular, maybe it's a ban to stop all the people from walking out of the BB store with a 60 gal water heater, and then heating their house with it. Can we ban that?

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810500#Comment_1810500

I didn't know Best Buy sold water heaters.

STEAM DOCTOR

Back to the subject matter at hand. Is there actually an intending ban in the books? I heard talk about a federal ban. Certainly various State bans. Any truth to any of this? I am dealing more with existing construction as opposed to new construction. But all info is good.

ethicalpaul

I linked to the CA ban on new unit sales to take effect in 2030. I saw none other. I have a feeling any such ban would be heavily reported.

Steamhead

Let me guess- you heard this from someone trying to sell a different type of heater, right?

ethicalpaul

…or from someone trying to sell a gas unit "before they take them away". My town and local gas company is sure gonna be annoyed (if there is a ban, which there isn't), just weeks ago they dug up my street and every other street to install new plastic gas mains and feeds to every single house in the whole town. It was about time, too, I've been smelling gas for 5 years on my street, no more. But I forgot there is zero inefficiency in gas delivery compared to electric, but that's another talk show!

Teemok

When you say ban on gas water heaters, I think of the triple banks of 800kBTU units I service in SF. There's no options to replace them period. If you are talking about a residential new construction ban, I can see that for sure. Forcing conversions of existing systems? I really doubt that. The GOV isn't going to pull a gas water heater from your cold dead hands. It will be about permits not necessarily availability.

Jamie Hall

I have not heard of bans for gas — or other fossil fuel units (water heaters or space heaters) in existing construction in this country — yet. They do exist in other places (the UK and Germany), however for replacement (and in the UK, they must be replaced in a certain time frame). There are bans in this country on various levels — not, as yet, the Federal level — for installations in new construction. I am not certain of the status of restrictions or bans on existing units.

That said, there is something of a de facto ban in much of New England, at least, as the existing gas supply is simply not adequate to serve much of an expansion of the use of gas, and there seems to be no prospect of obtaining additional supply.

Hot_water_fan

Jamie brings up a good point - many Americans are unwilling to pay for gas. It’s popular (I have it too) but it’s not a must have.

ethicalpaul

Was that his point? I don't think it's a matter of people not being willing to pay…it's that some areas up there are refusing to allow the creation of new gas hookups due to lack of supply infrastructure (as I understand it).

EdTheHeaterMan

When will the fuel delivery tanker trucks be banned from operating on the public roadways?

Who is going to employ all those workers at the Gas utility company?

Who is going to employ all those people who make gas pipe, oil pipe, coal miners, oil and gas well drillers, fuel pump manufacturers, and oil burner nozzles. We will need to send all those workers to other countries to get jobs there. That way we will have more room for the ones that are arriving daily.

And if California accomplishes the Carbon Equal or Carbon Free goal, how does that help the world? It reminds me of having a no peeing section in the community pool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWthQxngUcM

Hot_water_fan

@ethicalpaul i think if people would pay, it would happen. Lots of places don’t have the supply because they don’t have the demand.

Jamie Hall

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810544#Comment_1810544

@ethicalpaul is right on my comment on gas supply in New England. The demand may — or may not — be there. The supply isn't, plain and simple. The only ways New England can get gas is through pipelines which cross other states (and what few there are are at capacity) — which have said no way — or through LNG imports — to which one of the New England states (the only one with the geography to support LNG terminals and regasification facilities) has said no or at least no more.

The problem is compounded by the fact that there is intense competition for what gas there is, between residential, commercial and industrial, and electrical generation.

Old proverb and blessing (?): "may you live in interesting times".

Hot_water_fan

The supply doesn’t exist and people aren’t willing to pay for more supply…sounds like they want it but don’t want to pay. We all want a free lunch!

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810543#Comment_1810543

Here we go. @EdTheHeaterMan oil and gas production in the US is higher than at any time in history, and far higher than any other country. I think there's no shortage of those jobs. In fact, if you ask the producers I'm sure they would say they need employees and have needed them for a few years.

I wonder where we could get a supply, some influx from somewhere…I can't quite figure it out…but some places where people would love to come work in the gas and oil fields, people looking to chase a dream of freedom and liberty who would gladly toil the long hours of hard, but satisfying work for a decent paycheck.

I hope we can find a source of these workers….there must be a way. After all, we found them all through the development of this country.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/record-us-oil-gas-production-keeps-prices-under-pressure-2024-03-01/

jumper

Arm chair planners babble "decarbonisation". Transporting electricity may be so much more expensive than transporting hydrogen that we'll go forward to yesteryears of atmospheric burners for water heaters; boilers; furnaces; and even air conditioners. Think of the copper & transformer iron we won't need.

ethicalpaul

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810548#Comment_1810548

The NE is full of rich people and rich developers who would like to pay for the choice of gas but I think @Jamie Hall is right. There are regulatory issues and interstate transmission limitations for all the various reasons that are keeping utilities from hooking them up, at least some of them.

This is a big, complicated country with lots of different issues affecting different parts. But gas and oil aren't going anywhere in this country generally speaking in our lifetimes.

Teemok

There's at least two forces at play. Shifting away from carbon and limited gas supply. Horse guys crying about the car are valid tears. Disruptive forces are brutal and there are many at play. With all the authority in the world there's no stopping the iron law of change. The no pee zone 🤣. By that logic, because others pee in the pool it's pointless to try to teach your kids to not pee in the pool. I don't think the effort is pointless. Anyway, chlorine does a good job and there's no analogy equivalent for chlorine.

Reminds me of a meme: I understand that the dinosaurs are 100% wrecking everything but I don't want the responds to them to effect the shareholder values or the employees of Jurassic Park.

STEAM DOCTOR

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810528#Comment_1810528

Of course. Dead on

CLamb

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810529#Comment_1810529

Do you live in Elizabethtown Gas territory too?

ethicalpaul

PSE&G territory in Cedar Grove, Essex County

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810574#Comment_1810574

I'm in Elizabethtown territory

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810534#Comment_1810534

Some of those bans have been overturned in various courts. Here's an article on one:

https://www.berkeleyside.org/2024/01/03/berkeley-gas-stove-ban-ruling

Bob Harper

They're getting to it several ways. One is MUA, such as in Minn:

1346 - MN Rules Chapter

Another is the DOE going after efficiency

As various agencies, governmental or self-appointed, gain power, they will squeeze combustion appliances. Take the MSP airport: Through their noise reduction program, they had to change the building code for that zone to tighten houses for noise. The result was failure of atmospheric venting. The initial reaction was banning atmospheric venting because of a spike in CO incidents. Currently, it is allowed but only with strict MUA measures and testing.

Actually, I'm rather in favor of banning CAT I gas water heaters because I virtually NEVER see one properly installed AND properly venting. Moreover, the code allows for the Kervorkian option of common venting a CAT I fan-assisted furnace with a WH without spill controls. A flue blockage can result in venting out of the draft hood into the CAZ without tripping the pressure switch, spill switch or high limit switch. Sadly, I see better installs from DIY'ers than pros. Also, in my area virtually all WHs vent into a chimney or B-vent in the basement or closet where the vent rise is less than 3 feet. I ALWAYS see 3" unlisted single walled connector used and in about 95% of cases, with an elbow right off the hood. Do you know why those hoods come with a 4" adapter, too? Because at less than 3 ft vent rise, you have to increase the connector to 4" for a 40 MBH WH. They spill predictably, reliably and constantly. The leaky ductwork entrains these flue gases rendering your forced air system into an engineered CO distribution system.

going_commando

New England hates power plants too. We just close old ones and then hope we have enough wind and solar. Except it doesn't work and now we have to import electricity from NY, who also enjoys closing power plants.

There have been multiple attempts to add/upgrade the NG pipelines feeding New England, and they are always shot down, because pipelines are bad for the environment I guess.

jumper

Electric transport has gotten unaffordable. Transmission line supplying Quebec hydroelectricity through New England is budgeted @ $/kilowatt. And it is being obstructed. With such high prices extra inefficient green hydrogen may be more economical.

EdTheHeaterMan

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810549#Comment_1810549

Actually Paul, if the regulations, laws and executive orders of this great nation suddenly make using Gas illegal, then the Gas utility won't have any customers, Then logic would dictate that if there no Gas customers, then the Gas utility would close down since they sell a product that is illegal to use. If all the Gas utilities close down, there will be no need for the Gas utility to employ the hundreds of thousands of employees that are currently employed by them. So when you said "I think there's no shortage of those jobs" you were referring to the real world and not the Sarcastic world where the government actually bans the use of Gas.

So in that world, the gas utility would not exist the day after the law went into effect. That would leave all those workers out of a job so they would need to go to another country where that law does not exist. But there would be so many unemployed Utility Workers that they would have to cross the Canadian Border to get work.

How do you think Canada would react to so many immigrants entering from their southern border?

But like any attempt at humor Paul, when you have to explain it, It's not as funny. Sorry If I offended you or your Great Country! That was not my intention. And I realize that you don't actually believe that article you posted about California Banning Gas will ever happen in NJ. There are too many Gas Steam Boilers in your neighborhood for that to happen.

ethicalpaul

There are quite a few steam boilers in my neighborhood, but more important, every single house, yes every single house in my town and every town surrounding it has natural gas in its basement. You didn't offend me.

ChrisJ

Of course those who work for the gas utility could possibly go and work for the electrical utility since demand will be going up.

In some locations, like where Paul is that's the same company.

PRR

ethicalpaul September 16

……every single house in my town and every town surrounding it has natural gas…

OTOH: NObody in my town or the towns around us has ANY NatGas. NatGas goes via legacy pipelines up the river to the big city (and dead paper-mills) an hour inland to heat city and make electricity where they took-out the hydro-dam generators. To bring pipes to my town would mean far too much bedrock-blasting for our small population.

FWIW: come Jan-Mar your nose knows we burn a lot of wood here. A tree is a weed—- no tree-huggers on this coast. (And FWIW: I heat with Propane even though transportation to here costs more than the raw gas at Oklahoma Junction.)

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811050#Comment_1811050