What to do with steam system - Northeast

Toasted

Hi all - awesome community here!

I am a non-subject matter expert regarding heating, but have quickly determined that many who are believe steam via radiators is arguably the best heat. The HVAC contractor I am working with regarding the cooling system mentioned that while he makes a good portion of his money installing new heating systems, it would be hard pressed to recommend forced air over steam radiator, although if we're talking a system that is towards end of life, needs an oil>has conversion, he can understand how some would prefer to go hydronic due to ease of use.

In my case, these are recessed radiators and there's a brand new FORCE steam boiler in this house, and I am starting to lean towards keeping the system because it seems I would be making a bad choice removing it for a subpar alternative. That said, if I am going to remodel the walls and put in rockwool, is there anything else I can do to perhaps "modernize" the radiators. They are identical to the following link.

Also, are there any options regarding temp control, perhaps via installing unit specific controls?

Thanks all!

HVACNUT

Can we see the boiler piping? You can use your phone and attach pics directly.

I'm not a steam pro, but I believe you can install thermostatic radiator valves on each radiator to get better control. You still need the thermostat though. I'm not sure about balancing. Maybe venting needs to be addressed also.

I don't understand why you would want to eliminate the steam. Especially with a new boiler that you didn't even pay for.

Is FORCE a Burnham? Certainly looks like a V8.

Big Ed_4

Insulate the steam supply lines and balanced venting, I find today are needed to bring it back to what it once was …..

Jamie Hall

Yes please. The boiler piping and vicinity. Other than that, which may or may not be really good, there isn't much major needed. Whether individual radiator or room control is needed — or simple — depends on a variety of things, but the first thing to do — and you won't be able to do it until you live with the system in the winter — is make sure it is balanced the way you want it. For single pipe steam, this may mean playing with vents. For two pipe, adjusting the inlet valves. Then, once it is reasonably balanced, you may find you don't need individual space control at all, but if you do there are ways…

AdmiralYoda

Modern steam boilers operate in the 80-83%-ish range for efficiency. The only way to beat that is a condensing boiler which would mean forced hot water baseboard or radiant floor heating.

Your typical forced hot air is typically the least comfortable and tends to cost more to run.

You need to balance your system and remove the "mistakes" that were probably introduced over the life of the steam heating system.

1. Insulate the main pipes and any risers.
2. Install or upgrade your main vents… more is better.
3. Install good radiator vents like Gorton's.
4. Make sure you have no steam leaks…if water is added regularly you probably have some.
5. Make sure the boiler is running at peak efficiency and all the crud and muck is flushed out of it.
6. Make sure it is running at as low a pressure as possible. 1.5psi max.

After that you can start swapping radiator vents to try and make some heat up faster and some slower to try and balance the system.

ethicalpaul

I'm kind of curious. You have a brand new boiler in place and you are seemingly asking if you should remove it? Or what are you asking?

Steamhead

What these guys said. Keep the steam. Is this a one-pipe or two-pipe steam system (how many pipes are connected to each radiator)?

Waher

It’s better to keep the steam system and get it working properly. Then add a heat pump for cooling and heating in the shoulder seasons (two stage heating system). In the winter, radiant heat is superior to heat pumps in old houses. When the temperature gets below the efficiency range of the heat pumps, the steam system kicks on.

PRR

https://www.houzz.com/photos/recessed-radiator-transitional-bathroom-new-york-phvw-vp~145558751

I had one just like that in a house some miles south of Summit NJ. In the good bathroom. Hard to picture a whole house of those. They throw a fair bit of heat out the wall, even with some 20th century foiled-foam behind. They are very annoying to work on. The vent valve bangs your knee.

If the steam works, USE IT. Get some of Dan's books, it probably wants new vents and Dan tells all.

I liked steam. I'm not in love with it. I grew up on scorched-air and, with some allowances like water-trays everywhere, I'm fine with air too. But I would not change pipes and ducts.

Long Beach Ed

I don't understand what benefit you see in removing the system, unless you want to give the HVAC contractor a lot of money. What benefit are you seeking that you feel hot air will bestow?

Toasted

Attached is a pic of the furnace

- it's a ProSelect Force though I am not certain how many BTUs.

I am fairly certain these radiators are single pipe.

I don't think I want to remove the system given what many already mentioned, i.e., it's better than forced air, and almost makes no sense to install baseboard given all this system likely needs is a nice refresh via a flush and some vents.

My question was more so whether anyone had familiarity with individual thermostats for each unit as my understanding is that by having one in each room the house can easily become too hot for some while other's may be comfortable, especially the bedrooms.

Thanks!

dabrakeman

As far as comfort in different rooms start by making sure you have good ample main venting and if have more than one main then get steam to the ends of the mains fairly evenly. Let us know the pipe size and length of your main/s and we can help recommend main vent sizing. Once you have done that I have always like using adjustable vents at the radiators. Some will recommend TRV's in consistently overheating rooms but I just use Hoffman 1a's, Ventrite 1's and Jacobus/Main-O-Mist with different orifices throughout my house. We like cool bedrooms so those are generally throttled down at low vent settings but guests staying may like it warmer so we can then turn them up. Other rooms in this big house we just don't use much so those also tend to be run a bit slower. Balanced, no. Way we like it, yes. Make your system fit you.

There isn't individual thermostats on a steam system (zone heating per say). You can get thermostats with remote sensors that will help adjust heat to more of an average home temperature if your current thermostat location is a bit finicky.

Jamie Hall

Actually there are such things as thermostatically controlled vents for one pipe steam systems. They are a bit iffish — and the system has to be sufficiently oversize that the boiler cycles off on pressure every ten minutes of so — otherwise the vents can't gain control of the radiator.

But don't even think of installing them until you get the system nicely balanced to begin with.

AdmiralYoda

If you have some rooms that are way hotter or colder than others it can be a sign your system is out of balance.

Insulated pipes and main vents should be your first priority. Then replace all the radiator vents with quality ones. Then speed up or slow the radiator vents as needed.

Only then should you consider a TRV to try and throttle down a certain radiator.

leonz

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COPPER UGH; not good.

Toasted

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808014#Comment_1808014

I should probably take a look at where else it is used as I believe there are ~2 units using copper, maybe more. But now that you say it, also realize it's copper coming out of the bolier.

My limited knowledge brings me to the concept of expansion as the related concern; is there more to it that I should be concerned about regarding copper?

Toasted

Thanks for the tip regarding balancing before even thinking about working at an individual unit level.

Toasted

What's preferred insulation? They originally used the "good stuff," but presume preferred is fiberglass?

PRR

it's copper coming out of the bolier.

In a HARD working steam system, cycling and banging, copper and solder will eventually go brittle, crack, and fail.

My last house was plumbed near-boiler just like yours, ran mellow, never gave any trouble.

It would be insanely expensive to re-do that in iron, now that iron is going out of style. Do you see any problem? Leaks, white or green stains? It can be hard for the non-expert to know a seep from a crack, but such copper-jobs are in every town and I don't think they are a leading reason good systems go bad.

Toasted

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808071#Comment_1808071

Thanks - I will check around the solder joints, but we ran the system when the inspector was there and got all units hot except one in the bathroom which they likely shut off.

pecmsg

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808101#Comment_1808101

inspectors are there for SAFETY issues only.

Copper is frowned upon.

Get that close in piping redone AS PER the manual.

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1808071#Comment_1808071

"Iron is going out of style"? We use it all the time…………….