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Swimming Pool and Bulk Water Supply?

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RickDelta
RickDelta Member Posts: 403
edited April 21 in THE MAIN WALL
Hello HeatingHelp.com community!

I'm pondering the idea of supplying clear spring water to the bulk water tanker truck delivery industry.

ie:
Swimming Pool Fill-Ups
Construction/Highway Dust Control
Irrigation for landscaping
Car Washes ..... and more!

Our commercial building (motel) resides over an underground clear water spring.
We have several (350 gpm) large pumps running 24/7 most of the year just to pump this water outside as not to allow it to flood our basement.

This building (80+ years old) has 16" solid concrete foundation walls with 12" thick concrete plank floor w/1" re-bar thu out. Second floor (perimeter) walls are 16" wide cinderblock.
(I think they designed this structure to survive a direct nuclear blast!) : )

Directly over the spring on the second floor is a very large conference/banquet room area (has not be in use for many years, just storage).

Currently, this area is my office computer workstation/bedroom .... my penthouse! : )

I was thinking of installing a swimming pool liner (vinyl) in this area as a bulk water storage tank. It looks like I should be able to store about four(4) 40 ft tanker truck volumes in here.

There is tanker truck loading access right next to this storage area.

..... any thoughts on this?

Thanks!
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Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,635
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    Sounds like a good idea. Just one concern with the weight of the water in the vinyl liner on the second floor. Maybe with the building construction the way it exists it's a non issue but should be considered.
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    Sounds like a good idea. Just one concern with the weight of the water in the vinyl liner on the second floor. Maybe with the building construction the way it exists it's a non issue but should be considered.

    ...... this open water storage area floor span is supported by a 16" thick block wall on the first floor ....... halving the spans load distribution.
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 924
    edited April 20
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    Right. Water is HEAVY! One cubic foot weighs 62.3 pounds. Most ordinary buildings are designed for a live load (weight of the contents of the building, not the structure itself) of perhaps 30 pounds per square foot. Even heavy industrial structures are nowhere near sturdy enough to accommodate a large water tank unless it was part of the design from the beginning.

    Bburd
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 20
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    bburd said:

    Right. Water is HEAVY! One cubic foot weighs 62.3 pounds. Most ordinary buildings are designed for a live load (weight of the contents of the building, not the structure itself) of perhaps 30 pounds per square foot. Even heavy industrial structures are nowhere near sturdy enough to accommodate a large water tank unless it was part of the design from the beginning.

    .... with the 1st floor dividing my storage area in halve ..... thats around a 24 x 24 ft floor area.

    The live load rating for my 1foot concrete plank is around 250 PSF min. live load rating. ...... am I reading that right??

    Foot note:
    They used 1" stainless steel rebar in the planks construction! ... not normal carbon steel. The live load rating is probably much higher than this.
    (it took me 7 saw/zaw blades just to cut one of these rebars out of my way!)


  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 924
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    I am no structural engineer and will defer to those with more expertise. But also, how much load can that concrete block wall underneath support? If you plan to go ahead with this I suggest getting a licensed structural engineer to give you an opinion.

    Bburd
    RickDeltaCLamb
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,455
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    Get a structural engineer to evaluate this. As has been noted, water is heavy. It is a very rare floor which is designed for more than 200 pounds per square foot -- which is three feet of water.

    The usual failure point on overload is in sheer at the supports... although failure in mid span bending isn't unheard of.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    RickDeltabburdIntplm.
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    Get a structural engineer to evaluate this. As has been noted, water is heavy. It is a very rare floor which is designed for more than 200 pounds per square foot -- which is three feet of water.

    The usual failure point on overload is in sheer at the supports... although failure in mid span bending isn't unheard of.

    ...... I hear ya!! I never seen "stainless steel" rebar before! I assume its stronger and corrosion resistant as well.
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,338
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    Hi @RickDelta , Maybe a silly question, but has there ever been an earthquake in your area? That much elevated mass would be concerning 😬
    Yours, Larry
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 20
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    Hi @RickDelta , Maybe a silly question, but has there ever been an earthquake in your area? That much elevated mass would be concerning 😬
    Yours, Larry

    ...... YIKES!!! didn't think of that Larry!! That could be very upsetting! : (

    ..... mmmmmmm how about I just install the pool liner in the flooding basement area?? That area would hold around 12,000 gallons of water!
    One year we lost power for three days and had 12 ft of water in basement! ..... so I know that should work!

    (.... and I wouldn't have to sleep with a diving mask and air tanks!) : )

    ...... and in an earthquake, the shear drop path from the second floor would be right over my bosses office!! ..... so what's the problem?? : )

    ..... pondering!
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 20
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    ....or better yet! ..... don't store the water at all!
    Have them drop off their tanker trucks in our side lot and fill them over night for ready the next morning.


    Probably could fill 3 or 4 tankers over night at 300 gpm.
    hot_rodCLamb
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 20
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    Thinking:
    We have a large big rig parking area for our guests directly across the street. Let the tanker trucks load up there.
    All I'd have to do is power "mole" a 2" pex water line across this street to the truck lot.

    We have one of those big 40ft x 8ft x 10ft high corrugated steel shipping containers sitting there. I'm sure I could convert it into a large buffer tank for immediate fill up needs.

    ........ That's 24,000 gallons of ready to load stored water!

    .... lets say bulk wholesale cost to re-seller is $20 per 1,000 gallons of water, that's not bad! : )


    Hey! .... does anyone know how to power mole?? : (
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,011
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    @RickDelta Im concerned about the weight and the change of weight fluctuating when filled and drained. It's a lot of weight, not to mention the changes in weight during use.

    Have you considered a separate storage design? That much water with that much use can be a lot of wear and tear. Subtle at first until its not.
    As @Jamie Hall says above, have a structural engineer evaluate this.
    RickDelta
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,160
    edited April 20
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    My having dealt with this it has provided me with a great deal of experience with water in general.

    You have to have roll flat hose in several sizes to pump water into the tank from the ground with a gas engine water pump OR an above ground water tank to gravity fill a tank on a small truck that may be a
    single axle flat bed with a 500 gallon tank by using a stand pipe and a drop hose.

    Water in bulk is a commodity with a very low dollar value so keep that in mind.




    RickDelta
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,793
    edited April 21
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    Is the water delivered for swimming pools expected to have a pH of mid 7s and any specific hardness or total alkalinity?

    I generally keep mine 7.5-7.6.  But I have no idea what they deliver as I use city water and rain 

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 21
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    leonz said:

    My having dealt with this it has provided me with a great deal of experience with water in general.

    You have to have roll flat hose in several sizes to pump water into the tank from the ground with a gas engine water pump OR an above ground water tank to gravity fill a tank on a small truck that may be a
    single axle flat bed with a 500 gallon tank by using a stand pipe and a drop hose.

    Water in bulk is a commodity with a very low dollar value so keep that in mind.




    My thoughts in this is a minimal "self-serve" station set-up (managed remotely across the street by front desk staff via CCTV and intercom).

    A simple swing standpipe with drop hose sounds like all that's needed.

    I don't even need to add metering , just sell by the trucks tank volume.


    "Water in bulk is a commodity with a very low dollar value so keep that in mind".

    We have to pay to pump it if we send it down the canal or to a water tanker willing to pay us a few bucks for it! : )
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,289
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    You need a dedicated tank. Higher the better. Time is $$$$ so you need to fill trucks pronto.
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 21
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    jumper said:

    You need a dedicated tank. Higher the better. Time is $$$$ so you need to fill trucks pronto.

    Hi Jumper!

    Is there a standard size and or type hose to connect to tanker truck?

    ..... I wanted to use our shipping container as an on ground water storage tank and just pump it up thru swivel standpipe and drop hose.

    ...... how high should the swivel arm be above the tanker truck and how long of a fill hose?

    I could use the two 300 gpm (600 gpm total) submersible pumps we all ready have and drop them into the shipping container.
    Then mount the swivel arm atop the shipping container (that way the tankers cant run into the standpipe!) : )
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    ChrisJ said:

    Is the water delivered for swimming pools expected to have a pH of mid 7s and any specific hardness or total alkalinity?

    I generally keep mine 7.5-7.6.   But I have no idea what they deliver as I use city water and rain 




    I have no clue! I have to research that myself.
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 21
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    .... any thoughts on how to best line the inside of the storage container? (don't want rust or leaks)

    I thought to just order a swimming pool liner (vinyl) and adhere to walls ..... or better to attach with springs from the liners top perimeter edges.

    Thinking:
    If I place the shipping (storage) container in the middle of two back-in tanker truck lanes we could service both tankers at the same time.



    ........ GEEEE! this project sure has changed from originally flooding my bedroom with 25,000 gallons of water to this! LOL!! : )
  • PRR
    PRR Member Posts: 156
    edited April 21
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    Does anybody in your town actually run water trucks? (None in my town, I pay $2/gal for jug-water.) Talk to them (you will have to anyway). They know what fittings, tolerable pH and PPM and etc, and may have tired tanks no longer road-worthy that you could buy.
    RickDelta
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    PRR said:

    Does anybody in your town actually run water trucks? (None in my town, I pay $2/gal for jug-water.) Talk to them (you will have to anyway). They know what fittings, tolerable pH and PPM and etc, and may have tired tanks no longer road-worthy that you could buy.

    Hi PRR!

    I'm not interested in the end user, transport side of the bulk water (ie: tanker trucks, delivery personnel, etc.) ...... Only the wholesale side of the bulk water.

    The idea was to instead of just pumping all this crystal clear spring water down to the near by canal ...... pump it across the street to our motels big rig parking lot and store it in our existing 40ft x 8ft x 10ft shipping container.

    The shipping container would give me a 24,000 gallons buffer storage tank + 1,500 gallons I already store in the lower tier of our basement.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,793
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    Selling sump pump water...


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    RickDeltaPRR
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
    edited April 22
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    ChrisJ said:

    Selling sump pump water...


    ...... I'm down in the sump well now installing a non-self priming pump test set-up. The well is 3 ft deep and there's about a foot of water out over the bottom tier floor above it (almost 4 ft of water).

    I'm amazed that when I turn all the pumps off, I can see perfectly clear to the bottom of the sump well ..... I can see every detail on the foot valves residing only 4" off the bottom.

    NO joke! ..... your brain gets tricked back and forth as to whether or not your even looking thru water!! ...... spooky really!! Its that clear! : )

    Thinking:
    Now that I using the lower basement tier floor as a large storage basin, I thinking to seal coat (white color) the concrete floor and 2ft up the walls.
    ..... an epoxy garage floor paint maybe??

    Intplm.
  • PRR
    PRR Member Posts: 156
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    RickDelta said:

    I thinking to seal coat

    Why? The water comes in anyway. It isn't going away by itself. It may be prettier whitewashed, but that won't affect the quantity? It may look cleaner, but it is coming out of dirt or dirty rock, although it seems all the murkiness has gone clear out of it.

  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    PRR said:

    RickDelta said:

    I thinking to seal coat

    Why? The water comes in anyway. It isn't going away by itself. It may be prettier whitewashed, but that won't affect the quantity? It may look cleaner, but it is coming out of dirt or dirty rock, although it seems all the murkiness has gone clear out of it.

    ...... my thoughts are to create a more sanitary environment (barrier) from just the raw basement concrete surface.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,271
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    Does the State have any control on water? Do you need to be a regulated water provider at a certain point if you store and sell water?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    hot_rod said:

    Does the State have any control on water? Do you need to be a regulated water provider at a certain point if you store and sell water?

    Hi Hot_Rod!
    For potable water i'm sure ya do. Don't know if non-potable water does or not.
    Looking into it now.
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 611
    edited April 22
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    I'd call these bulk water delivery companies first and ask if they'd even be interested.
    You end up doing all this work and no one is interested?

    Don't think you'll get remotely close the $20/1,000 gallon though. So I'd get the numbers figured to see if it's also worth the effort.

    RickDeltaCLambPRR
  • bmma
    bmma Member Posts: 36
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    I'm not a structural engineer but I work in a consulting firm with many and I know just enough to know that you really, really, really need to have a structural engineering evaluation done to assess whether your building could handle this type of loading. The evaluation would need to look not only at the vertical loads on the structure but also the lateral loads from the water pushing outward on the foundation, walls, etc. Even in the basement, you really want this evaluation done before you start putting thousands and thousands of gallons in there. Everything could seem fine, until it isn't. I'm sure your insurance company would have some questions for you before you start doing this too.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,793
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    I'm just over here confused how the foundation can tolerate this abuse without the water up on the next floor

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    Agreed! …. My current thoughts are to store the water across the street in a shipping container.

  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,349
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    Right on the property line next to the residential neighborhood?

    Just think what all that water will do to a house when the sides of the used and abused shipping container blow out.

    I DIY.
  • bmma
    bmma Member Posts: 36
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    Sounds like a better idea than trying to store it in the building. I hope you're able to make it work, but I know the pricing around here for water delivery is about $500 for an 8,000 gallon load. Depending on where the current haulers are getting their water it might be tough to make it cost effective enough to find any customers willing to cut into their profit margin to pay the amount you need to make it worth your time.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,793
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    I think I pay around 14 cents a gallon for city water.

    Id expect those trucks to pay similar or less for their supply.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • bmma
    bmma Member Posts: 36
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    Are you sure you're paying $0.14 per gallon? That sounds really high.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,793
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    No I'm not sure.

    I could be confusing it with 14 cents per kwh.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    I can't see this shipping container ever "blowing out" like an above ground swimming pool ……. its built like an armored battle tank!

    ….. also, the tank is 20 ft away from the one house next to us (rail road tracks behind it) and we own that house! : )

  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,349
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    https://www.emilianaserbatoi.com/en-ww/efficiency-savings-and-cleanliness-this-is-why-the-best-tanks-have-cylindrical-shape.aspx

    "in a cylinder the weight distribution and the relative pressure act in
    the same way on all the walls. This does not happen in a prismatic tank,
    where walls experience greater pressure in the center, flexing, while
    the welded corners result to be more rigid. For this reason, a square
    tank would require greater reinforcements and thicknesses to obtain the
    same robustness, with an increase in costs both in terms of construction
    equipment and of production costs."

    I DIY.
    CLamb
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 403
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    Agreed! …. but a round tank of the same volume would render useless a large portion of the valuable parking and side by side loading lanes available.

    A round foot print makes useless the area around it!

    I would never use a round tank in such a layout.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,271
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    I don’t think a container with flat walks will handle the force of the water inside. When they build square water vessels they have stay rods welded across the flat sheets

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream