New refrigerant for HVAC.

Mustangman

Everytime the fed gets involved in our trade, we end up paying. I didn't see where anyone mentioned it but, ductless units will using R32 and split systems R454B. So New gauges for the techs, re-training because both new gasses are flamable, stock more types of refrigerant, Re-label trucks for flamable gas. They claim that the pressures should run lower than R410A. As for the flamability, it not what you think. It does.t catch like gasoline. Its 8% flamable. If you spilled some and threw a match on it, it won't flash and burn. It will burn but at a slow rate.
Last refrigerant change was a nightmare. The pressures were so high coils started leaking. They didn't tell us much about 410A. I expect the same with these two refrigerants.
Add on top of a gas change, the SEER rating system changed to SEER2. Ever since SEER was a thing ((Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio) they tested the equipment at .10 static. Thats all fine and dandy but we run a .50 static in our ductwork. Kind of screwed up right? So all those years I designed ductwork with a .50 static were messed up? Hence SEER2, HSPF2 ( Heating Season Performance Factor ) and a few other rating changes comes along to save the day.
Oddly enough the SEER2 Runs just like the SEER1s
Good Luck

pecmsg

The coil leaks were more a result of the new DOE requirements for energy usage. Make the copper thinner than rifle the interior.

The bad X-Valve issues were a result of a rust inhibitor used in the manufacture of the compressor shell that reacted with POE oil.

Currently supermarkets are going to CO2 systems or R-290 Self Contained cases.

ChrisJ

I'm assuming R32 is still using POE?

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

I'm assuming R32 is still using POE?

I believe PVE

EBEBRATT-Ed

Just put a roll out switch on the evaporator coil

Mustangman

R32 and R410A both use POE oil

Mustangman

Carrier, whom everyone follows, is switching to R454B as their refrigerant in split systems. More good news... ductless are switching to R32. Both are considered mildly flamable and are in the A2L class. It won't flash off or burn like fuel. But it will burn if the conditions are right. Think about this. We are all going to have to be trained to handle and transport R454B and R32. Do our trucks have to have flamable stickers? We get to haul around another 25lb canister of refrigerant. R32 has been in use around the world as the refrigerant for ductless split systems. I can see the move to R32 as its been in use for many years. The bugs are worked out. R454B... who knows.
Steve

ChrisJ

Mustangman said:

Carrier, whom everyone follows, is switching to R454B as their refrigerant in split systems. More good news... ductless are switching to R32. Both are considered mildly flamable and are in the A2L class. It won't flash off or burn like fuel. But it will burn if the conditions are right. Think about this. We are all going to have to be trained to handle and transport R454B and R32. Do our trucks have to have flamable stickers? We get to haul around another 25lb canister of refrigerant. R32 has been in use around the world as the refrigerant for ductless split systems. I can see the move to R32 as its been in use for many years. The bugs are worked out. R454B... who knows.
Steve

Hazmat placards are required for loads of 1001 pounds and higher.
Are you considering transporting 1001+ pounds of refrigerant in a van?

pecmsg

Do you have the placards for your torch?

jumper

Know what? H20 is excellent for A/C.
Not for other sorts of refrigeration.

ChrisJ

jumper said:

Know what? H20 is excellent for A/C. Not for other sorts of refrigeration.

Can you please provide more details on that?

PRR

Old refrigerants...
Scientific American, December 1935

Five years ago Thomas Midgley, Jr. , of the General Motors Research Laboratories reported the discovery of the nontoxic refrigerants di- and trichlorodifluoromethane and predicted that the application of these compounds to air conditioning would greatly broaden the scope of that industry.
The prediction has been verified. The total air conditioning in use in the US. is now more than 16 times what it was in 1930!

Di/Trichlorofluoromethane are also called freon-11/12.
Midgley also worked on tetraethyl lead (leaded gas), which led to cases of lead poisoning, hallucinations, insanity, and 13 deaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.
"In the late 1920s, air conditioning and refrigeration systems employed compounds such as ammonia (NH₃), chloromethane (CH3Cl), propane, methyl formate (C2H4O2), and sulfur dioxide (SO2) as refrigerants."

ChrisJ

@PRR

I have both methyl formate and sulfur dioxide in use in my kitchen. 

They work fantastic.

jumper

For many comfort applications 60° evap temperature can be okay. 60° evap lift to 120° condense require compression ratio about 6. That is doable and I built prototypes with various compressors. Problem is that system has to be absolutely hermetic. Machine is in vacuum condition. Any air or other noncondensible wrecks performance and efficiency.

For a cascade setup; a lesser compression ratio, which makes things easier, water enables condensing CO2 refrigeration. Refrigerant business suffers.

ChrisJ said:

jumper said:

Know what? H20 is excellent for A/C.
Not for other sorts of refrigeration.

Can you please provide more details on that?

ChrisJ

jumper said:

For many comfort applications 60° evap temperature can be okay. 60° evap lift to 120° condense require compression ratio about 6. That is doable and I built prototypes with various compressors. Problem is that system has to be absolutely hermetic. Machine is in vacuum condition. Any air or other noncondensible wrecks performance and efficiency. For a cascade setup; a lesser compression ratio, which makes things easier, water enables condensing CO2 refrigeration. Refrigerant business suffers.

jumper said:

Know what? H20 is excellent for A/C. Not for other sorts of refrigeration.

Can you please provide more details on that?

That's 70% RH at 70f.

Yuck.

jumper

>> That's 70% RH at 70f. Yuck.<<

Is 70% RH that yucky?

Depends on circumstances. Unconditioned spaces are far more pleasant @ 70° when outside is in nineties. Then there's hot dry places that don't require dehumidification.

One can chill water to lower temperatures with H2O refrigerant but condenser does get bulky. Future I think is going toward CO2 refrigerant. Question then becomes transcritical versus CO2/H20 cascade.

ChrisJ

I aim for 70-72f and below 50% in my house and I have it setup so above 50% it slows the blower down.  Sometimes if it's really hot out I'll raise it to 55% to keep my sensible cooling higher.


 60% and above definitely feels nasty.