New refrigerant for HVAC.

SteamingatMohawk

I just talked with a friend who works in the HVAC business. He mentioned there is a "new" refrigerant in the making...454. Who knows anything about it?

pecmsg

There are several NEW refrigerants coming.

In A/C's there now listed A2L. Mildly Flammable!
In refrigeration R-290 AKA Propane and R-600 Isobutane. Highly Flammable!

Intplm.

Does anyone know the purpose of all of this?

pecmsg

Obscene DOE requirements

EPA reducing and or doing away with Globel Warming Chemicals

I'm seeing average life of commercial refrigeration equipment going from 10 - 15 years down to 5 - 7 1/2 years. How that's environmentally sound is beyond me!


Copper tubing stretched to its thinnest for better heat transfer, but it develops pin holes much quicker.

Jamie Hall

Intplm. said:

Does anyone know the purpose of all of this?

That's really a political question... or environmental one. The question being which refrigerant is the least harmful to the environment, while still being somewhat usable.

The criteria for a good refrigerant, considered only as a refrigerant, are pretty simple. It has to have a "boiling" point vs. pressure relationship which allows for "boiling" (evaporation) at the lowest likely temperature of the heat source at some reasonable pressure (and it mustn't turn into a solid, either -- which is what lets water out for most uses) -- and similarly a boiling point (at which it will be condensing) at the highest expected temperature of the heat sink at some equally more or less reasonable pressure.

It's also nice if it isn't particularly toxic or has other harmful environmental effects, and if it is outrageously flammable and doesn't react to useful materials in the plumbing or heat exchangers or compressors...

Intplm.

Thank you @Jamie Hall appreciate that.

I'm still curious as to why these refrigerants are "new". Why "new".
I remember in the 1980's and early 1990's the replacement "new" refrigerants was what was needed for the ozone layer depletion. This along with certain types of chlorine was changed for pool use.
Recover reclaim and reuse became the new saying in HVAC/R.
Has the "new" refrigerants from some thirty or forty years ago become out of favor? And if so, why?
So I'm wondering...whats...new?

pecmsg

Intplm. said:

Thank you @Jamie Hall appreciate that.

I'm still curious as to why these refrigerants are "new". Why "new".
I remember in the 1980's and early 1990's the replacement "new" refrigerants was what was needed for the ozone layer depletion. This along with certain types of chlorine was changed for pool use.
Recover reclaim and reuse became the new saying in HVAC/R.
Has the "new" refrigerants from some thirty or forty years ago become out of favor? And if so, why?
So I'm wondering...whats...new?

The patents for the New refrigerants of the 90's are running out. Time for New again!

JUGHNE

Good time to completely retire

Hot_water_fan

How many times have refrigerants changed? Now, how many times has the world ended? 

WMno57

Hot_water_fan said:

How many times have refrigerants changed? Now, how many times has the world ended? 

These aren't new chemicals. Propane has been around for years. They weren't commonly used as refrigerants before because of their downsides. Higher pressures, flammability, corrosion, toxicity, non-homogeneous (small molecules leak before large molecules), etc.
To use a software term, much of this new technology is Beta version 0.8 and not ready for prime time.

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

Thank you @Jamie Hall appreciate that. I'm still curious as to why these refrigerants are "new". Why "new". I remember in the 1980's and early 1990's the replacement "new" refrigerants was what was needed for the ozone layer depletion. This along with certain types of chlorine was changed for pool use. Recover reclaim and reuse became the new saying in HVAC/R. Has the "new" refrigerants from some thirty or forty years ago become out of favor? And if so, why? So I'm wondering...whats...new?

The patents for the New refrigerants of the 90's are running out. Time for New again!

There was a time a few years ago where I had a list of new refrigerants they were considering to replace 410a and methyl formate was on it.  The same stuff my 91 year old monitor top is running.

I literally did the Tom Hanks laugh. 
https://youtu.be/ca9GuwuOVZc?si=Qf9Y8KKgBA_If5kW

SteamingatMohawk

Wow! Quite an eye opener.

SteamingatMohawk

I found this explanation:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/r454b-refrigerant-what-means-hvac-industry-ll6hc

"R454b refrigerant is a molecule with high safety, low global warming potential, and high efficiency."

"Additionally, the R454b refrigerant is highly flammable, which poses safety risks during its utilization. "

So, what is it???????

I wonder who wrote it.

SteamingatMohawk

The second paragraph says it is classified as A2L.

pecmsg

Refrigerant is a generic term
several hazardous ones are:
Ammonia
Nitrogen
Propane
Methyl Chloride
along with several others. 

The #1 reason we got away from them……..the hazard!

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

Refrigerant is a generic term
several hazardous ones are:
Ammonia
Nitrogen
Propane
Methyl Chloride
along with several others. 

The #1 reason we got away from them……..the hazard!

In the early years they were using sulfur dioxide.  GE developed hermetically sealed units that didn't leak making it an almost non existent issue.

Frigidaire developed Freon and started a sales campaign about how safe it was and that you really wanted it. They convinced many that it was a miracle and that you didn't want evil SO2.


Ammonia was never used in residential systems.  GE mentioned in a report that they were choosing sulfur dioxide because ammonia had developed an unfair reputation and that's in 1926.

SO2 was the far the most popular refrigerant before Freon.


The good news is if they switch back to something less friendly the units will have to be reasonably good at not leaking unlike right now.

KC_Jones

Ammonia.

The fear mongering needs to stop. Corporations stacked the deck against it to sell their products that we now know destroy the environment.

Naturally occurring 
Efficient
The volumes required for anything residential isn’t enough to kill even with a 100% discharge.
Doesn’t destroy the environment

I will never understand why a human is searching for a solution that already exists. Stop looking, start using.

We are using flammable refrigerants instead. Make it make sense, please.

EBEBRATT-Ed

What @Ironman said

"Yes!
The reason is so that certain folks can make more money and the government can gain more control over the populace.

I have a new window unit that is R-32.

Ammonia's biggest downfall is that you can't use it with copper.


Let's face it. If they ok a refrigerant and then 15 years later they raise the price so high that is becomes unfeasible to repair the older equipment that uses it then the MFGs sell a lot more equipment.

I haven't bought any 410A in about 4 years and I think a 25lb jug was about $120 back then.

I ran into an AC guy who was working for the Hotel I stayed at in FL on vacation about a month ago and he told me what 410A was going for now. I don't remember the price but I almost fell over.

HVACNUT

So no more brazing? Press or flare fittings? 

kcopp

Intplm. said:

Does anyone know the purpose of all of this?

follow the money $$$$

hot_rod

R-290 has a low GWP global warming potential 
It also allow heat pumps to get closer to boiler replacements, 175F water temperatures.

140F is about the limit now with the commonly used refrigerants 

pecmsg

hot_rod said:

R-290 has a low GWP global warming potential 
It also allow heat pumps to get closer to boiler replacements, 175F water temperatures.

140F is about the limit now with the commonly used refrigerants 

That might be true in Europe but here in the states there limited to 5.5 Oz total charge.

clammy

Ammonia was the keystone to refrigeration ,how do you think they made ice in the late 1800 and early 1900 to fill the original ice boxes ? I kinda think the ever 20 to25 year refregerant change up is great to corporate bussiness that’s about it . Personally I’m not all aboard on using any flamable refregerant in a system for air condition weather residential or commercial . I already have concerns w large multi head system in commercial installs and leakage to a confined area and exposure and mostly skating mim fresh air and any sort of air monitoring for air quality O 2 and CO 2 levels ? These issue still exist w pac rooftops but w economizer taking in outside air and if there’s a leak the exposure would be to a larger area w a mix hopefully of outside air . At least w chilled water when there’s a leak u know it plus water doesn ,t suffocate you unknownly or exposure you to low level of toxic chemicals ,ok maybe a life vest over a scot pack .I’m personally not looking into updating reclaimers and vacuume pumps to be al2 rated when that day comes I ll just stop doing ac simple as that and let some one else deal w the newest garbage refregerants and what comes w it . As it is a simple ac change out cost enough now w material prices I feel that r454 is not going to help keeping prices down . I’m also thinking how’s it going to work shipping equipment that contains a flammable refregerant will it be labeled haz mat and flammable or will they save them self and ship them dry costing us more . For refrigeration stuff it’s no big deal most if not all refregeration condensers are shipped dry ,installed and then charged . But as some know most ac condenser units are shipped pre charged w refregerant builders grade 15 ft of line set and higher seer usually the old standard 25 ft . Will we see units just shipped dry and instead of a top off if need be the installer will be doing the complete charge ,that’s another way to really stick it to the masses and increase corporate greed ? I’m glad I’m older and in 10 years or so really won’t care one bit as long as my junk is working . Ps not trying to rant to much . Sticks and stones
Peace and good luck clammy

Erin Holohan Haskell

I've removed some posts here due to political comments. Please follow our site rules and don't bring up politics. Thank you.

jumper

If the unit is outside why is ammonia or hydrocarbon dangerous?
We already have natural gas inside so why not propane/butane?
I think that cascade or secondary systems are coming. First in supermarkets and then A/C.

pecmsg

jumper said:

If the unit is outside why is ammonia or hydrocarbon dangerous? We already have natural gas inside so why not propane/butane? I think that cascade or secondary systems are coming. First in supermarkets and then A/C.

A small amount is acceptable 
a large amount……. Do you want a 30# LP Tank in your attic or basement?

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

jumper said:

If the unit is outside why is ammonia or hydrocarbon dangerous? We already have natural gas inside so why not propane/butane? I think that cascade or secondary systems are coming. First in supermarkets and then A/C.

A small amount is acceptable 
a large amount……. Do you want a 30# LP Tank in your attic or basement?

30 pounds?

Jamie Hall

Finding a refrigerant which ticks all the boxes is... at least hard. Maybe impossible.

hot_rod

A2whp monoblocs, all the refrigerant is outside

Even with a split system, the amount of LP inside the home would be a fraction or what the LP fuel piping in a home contains, considering it may be connected to a 500 gallon tank or more.

pedmec

i don't see what everybody's problem is with the A2L. You drive around with a 250 lbs of explosive under your vehicle everyday and never even give it a thought. And 410A was always in trouble because it was always had a high GPW

ChrisJ

pedmec said:

i don't see what everybody's problem is with the A2L. You drive around with a 250 lbs of explosive under your vehicle everyday and never even give it a thought. And 410A was always in trouble because it was always had a high GPW

That was what confused me years ago when I wanted to use lpg in my trucks AC.  Everyone kept telling me how dangerous it was yet had no problems with the 34 gallons of gasoline? 

I ended up just using 134a but never understood the logic. 

Jamie Hall

It really is too bad that water has such a high freezing point...

Every other refrigerant I can think of has something -- or somethings! -- wrong with it. It's a matter of pick your poison.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@jumper

Ammonia can't be used with copper. Every pipe and fitting have to be steel. And what do you do with the compressor motor windings that are all copper....go back to open drive compressors? That's not happening.

If you want ammonia check out Robur they make gas fired chillers and heat pumps.

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@jumper Ammonia can't be used with copper. Every pipe and fitting have to be steel. And what do you do with the compressor motor windings that are all copper....go back to open drive compressors? That's not happening. If you want ammonia check out Robur they make gas fired chillers and heat pumps.

Aluminum windings.

jumper

If refrigerant is inexpensive then open drives are okay. Save energy.
Don't cars' A/C use open drive compressors?
LPG is an excellent refrigerant. You can blend propane/butane ratio to suit yourself.
Fuel grade works fine if you don't mind serving time.
Water is even better for cascade set up. 60° will condense CO2.
Perfectly safe for people, ozone, and greenhouse.
Problem is that there's no money in natural stuff.

Matt_67

We currently have in our shop R12, R22, 404a, 401a,401b,407c,416a,449a,448a,HP-80,HP-81, 409a,422d,134a,410a,MO49,MO79,MO99,414,421a and propane.   Some of those won’t or can’t be replaced once they are gone but are still in use in our area.  And that’s the challenge, maintaining the existing equipment, which isn’t always standard applications.

On the current A/C replacements - I don’t think we could use propane in residential split systems until we can figure out how to build evap coils that don’t leak.  I can just imagine a pound of propane in the blower compartment of a furnace or air handler waiting for a relay to spark,  I really hope they know what they are doing with the A2L refrigerants.  There have been way too many times I feel like we’re doing field trials lately.

ChrisJ

@Matt_67

In your experience when an evaporator starts to leak does it go fast or usually start very slow and leak very small amounts over a long period?

Matt_67

Generally slow with pin holes, but that’s not the only failure type. A rub through can leak pretty fast once it starts.

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

@Matt_67

In your experience when an evaporator starts to leak does it go fast or usually start very slow and leak very small amounts over a long period?

Generally slow.

Now what about the rare occurrence when a wire shorts out on a cap tube and blows a hole in it? Or when moving something and a small tube breaks? There are several things that make keeping Non Flammable and toxic refrigerants in use.

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

@Matt_67

In your experience when an evaporator starts to leak does it go fast or usually start very slow and leak very small amounts over a long period?

Generally slow.

Now what about the rare occurrence when a wire shorts out on a cap tube and blows a hole in it? Or when moving something and a small tube breaks? There are several things that make keeping Non Flammable and toxic refrigerants in use.

Who controls what refrigerants we are allowed and not allowed to use?

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

@Matt_67

In your experience when an evaporator starts to leak does it go fast or usually start very slow and leak very small amounts over a long period?

Generally slow.

Now what about the rare occurrence when a wire shorts out on a cap tube and blows a hole in it? Or when moving something and a small tube breaks? There are several things that make keeping Non Flammable and toxic refrigerants in use.

Who controls what refrigerants we are allowed and not allowed to use?

EPA