Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Billy's first water heater

Options

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,706
    Options
    @Mad Dog_2. Opinions on vacuum breakers?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,963
    Options
    Billy cut and cleaned copper, doped nipples and put the flue pipe together. I soldered. I've been teaching him soldering & he's picking it up.  We just didn't have the luxury of time today. I'm thrilled to be passing on my know how...This was for my oldest customers AAA-rated folks. They've always appreciated what I do. 38 yrs...I was only a 2nd yr apprentice, no license, no insurance, moonlighter. I hate even charging them. They get the Fambly Rate!  Mad Dog 🐕 
    Intplm.bigbillynyc
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,967
    Options
    Always nice to see a good news post. Looks like Billy's on his way with a fine tutor.
    bigbillynyc
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,963
    Options
    I'm a natural teacher, but only for Gung Ho students. I don't think I'd like teaching full time.  Mad Dog 🐕 
    Intplm.bigbillynyc
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,544
    Options
    @Mad Dog_2 You would not like teaching. I did it for 4-5 years at the union hall. You have to take their cell phones away to get them to pay attention. I gave up. I know it's tough to go to class for 5 years at night after a long day at work. Most of us have done that in some way shape or form. But if you don't want to be there quit and go home don't waste my time.

    I gave up drove me nuts.

    @ChrisJ not all states require vacuum breakers. MA does CT does not. I don't know if they are really needed. Nevers saw a tank implode. But the MFG probably requires one in the instructions.
    ChrisJMad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,706
    Options
    @Mad Dog_2 You would not like teaching. I did it for 4-5 years at the union hall. You have to take their cell phones away to get them to pay attention. I gave up. I know it's tough to go to class for 5 years at night after a long day at work. Most of us have done that in some way shape or form. But if you don't want to be there quit and go home don't waste my time. I gave up drove me nuts. @ChrisJ not all states require vacuum breakers. MA does CT does not. I don't know if they are really needed. Nevers saw a tank implode. But the MFG probably requires one in the instructions.
    I've been tempted to install one.
    But my concerns are it's another thing to fail.   That's why I'm curious what the pros that see this stuff in bulk think.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 742
    edited March 10
    Options
    No unions? 😳
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    Mad Dog_2
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,304
    edited March 10
    Options
    Hi @EBEBRATT-Ed , Just guessing, but we used to have copper tanks. With that soft metal and a bit of vacuum, you might see one collapse. I seem to remember some stories in old trade journals about this. With a steel tank, this just isn't a problem. 🤠
    Yours, Larry

    ps. Nice work Billy! I like seeing shutoffs on both hot and cold, particularly in buildings more than one story.
    bigbillynyc
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
    Options
    I think all plumbing codes talk about the tank vacuum breakers, snd when they are required

    whether or not the inspector enforces  their use is another question 
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • bigbillynyc
    bigbillynyc Member Posts: 4
    Options
    Mad Dog as always thanks for your patience and help! Feeling blessed to have such a knowledgeable teacher. It feels great to keep learning different aspects of the trade and definitely keeps things interesting. I’m lucky to have a good deal of hands on work from
    my other union trade so (I think 😆) I’ve been picking up things pretty quickly. Time to hit the books and start really retaining the names of all the working parts of these systems.

    @Larry Weingarten good eye! We added the cold water valve and it totally made sense as Matt explained it. It’s nice sometimes to put in the extra work on things like adding a valve or using a new part instead of reusing old ones on an install. Makes you feel proud of your work and better for the home owner long term.
    WMno57
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,963
    Options
    I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

    Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
    Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,704
    edited March 10
    Options
    Mad Dog_2 said:

    I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

    Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
    Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 

    I'd just purchase a pipe cutter and a sharkbite :joy: Purposely making something difficult to work on seems a losing strategy, but OK!
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    SlamDunkMad Dog_2WMno57
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 121
    Options
    delcrossv said:

    No unions? 😳

    I have never understood the purpose of unions on HWH. Without them, you utilize a coupling and have two sweats to perform. With them, you must remove one half of the union from the old HWH and sweat it to the new piping on the new one. What is the benefit here? You certainly will be praying that the old union will seat properly even though it has been on the HWH for 15 years! If you utilize a new union, you still have two sweats to perform!

    The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.
    hot_rodMad Dog_2
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,583
    edited March 10
    Options
    LRCCBJ said:

    delcrossv said:

    No unions? 😳

    The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.
    Hence, the benefit of sharkbites/flex hose combo for a hwh. I got tired of reworking the pipe on my own HWH. I know it is lazy, but it works reliably.

    ethicalpaulMad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,706
    Options
    LRCCBJ said:
    No unions? 😳
    I have never understood the purpose of unions on HWH. Without them, you utilize a coupling and have two sweats to perform. With them, you must remove one half of the union from the old HWH and sweat it to the new piping on the new one. What is the benefit here? You certainly will be praying that the old union will seat properly even though it has been on the HWH for 15 years! If you utilize a new union, you still have two sweats to perform! The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.
    When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

    They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

    They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Larry WeingartendelcrossvAlan (California Radiant) ForbesWMno57
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,706
    Options
    Mad Dog as always thanks for your patience and help! Feeling blessed to have such a knowledgeable teacher. It feels great to keep learning different aspects of the trade and definitely keeps things interesting. I’m lucky to have a good deal of hands on work from
    my other union trade so (I think 😆) I’ve been picking up things pretty quickly. Time to hit the books and start really retaining the names of all the working parts of these systems.

    @Larry Weingarten good eye! We added the cold water valve and it totally made sense as Matt explained it. It’s nice sometimes to put in the extra work on things like adding a valve or using a new part instead of reusing old ones on an install. Makes you feel proud of your work and better for the home owner long term.
    Good looking work keep at it.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 121
    Options
    ChrisJ said:


    When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

    They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

    They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.


    I wish I could ever get that lucky. :smile:

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,706
    Options
    LRCCBJ said:
    When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

    They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

    They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.


    I wish I could ever get that lucky. :smile:
    I'm sure it's unlikely.

    But it did happen.  :D

    That said I also wish BF put the anode somewhere else. 
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 742
    Options
    ChrisJ said:


    LRCCBJ said:

    delcrossv said:

    No unions? 😳

    I have never understood the purpose of unions on HWH. Without them, you utilize a coupling and have two sweats to perform. With them, you must remove one half of the union from the old HWH and sweat it to the new piping on the new one. What is the benefit here? You certainly will be praying that the old union will seat properly even though it has been on the HWH for 15 years! If you utilize a new union, you still have two sweats to perform!

    The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.

    When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

    They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

    They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.





    Exactly. Especially when you have several in a building.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,006
    edited March 10
    Options
    Unions (at least water flex connectors) on every piece of equipment. And with what you’ve done there, you’re going to get electrolysis; eventually premature tank failure. 

    Sorry @Mad Dog_2, I agree with almost everything you do because you usually do more than required and you use good quality materials, but not this time. 

    And everyone: Don’t tread on me. This forum is about pros and cons, so tread lightly. Besides, I’m in a bad mood. 
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    delcrossv
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,861
    Options
    Mad Dog_2 said:
    I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

    Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
    Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 
    When I got mine it was $5K
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 742
    edited March 10
    Options
    Mad Dog_2 said:

    I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

    Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
    Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 

    And that's why I haven't hired out a HWH replacement in 30 years. ;) I arrange things to be easy for me, as I'm gonna be the next guy replacing it.

    The brass ells are a step up over the copper female thread to sweat I usually see- early failure guaranteed.

    What's a press tool? 🤣
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,583
    Options
    Another reason I use sharkbites....my copper never looks that good.