Billy's first water heater

Mad Dog_2

ChrisJ

@Mad Dog_2. Opinions on vacuum breakers?

Mad Dog_2

Billy cut and cleaned copper, doped nipples and put the flue pipe together. I soldered. I've been teaching him soldering & he's picking it up.  We just didn't have the luxury of time today. I'm thrilled to be passing on my know how...This was for my oldest customers AAA-rated folks. They've always appreciated what I do. 38 yrs...I was only a 2nd yr apprentice, no license, no insurance, moonlighter. I hate even charging them. They get the Fambly Rate!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Intplm.

Always nice to see a good news post. Looks like Billy's on his way with a fine tutor.

Mad Dog_2

I'm a natural teacher, but only for Gung Ho students. I don't think I'd like teaching full time.  Mad Dog 🐕 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Mad Dog_2 You would not like teaching. I did it for 4-5 years at the union hall. You have to take their cell phones away to get them to pay attention. I gave up. I know it's tough to go to class for 5 years at night after a long day at work. Most of us have done that in some way shape or form. But if you don't want to be there quit and go home don't waste my time.

I gave up drove me nuts.

@ChrisJ not all states require vacuum breakers. MA does CT does not. I don't know if they are really needed. Nevers saw a tank implode. But the MFG probably requires one in the instructions.

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Mad Dog_2 You would not like teaching. I did it for 4-5 years at the union hall. You have to take their cell phones away to get them to pay attention. I gave up. I know it's tough to go to class for 5 years at night after a long day at work. Most of us have done that in some way shape or form. But if you don't want to be there quit and go home don't waste my time. I gave up drove me nuts. @ChrisJ not all states require vacuum breakers. MA does CT does not. I don't know if they are really needed. Nevers saw a tank implode. But the MFG probably requires one in the instructions.

I've been tempted to install one.
But my concerns are it's another thing to fail.   That's why I'm curious what the pros that see this stuff in bulk think.

delcrossv

No unions? 😳

Larry Weingarten

Hi @EBEBRATT-Ed , Just guessing, but we used to have copper tanks. With that soft metal and a bit of vacuum, you might see one collapse. I seem to remember some stories in old trade journals about this. With a steel tank, this just isn't a problem. 🤠
Yours, Larry

ps. Nice work Billy! I like seeing shutoffs on both hot and cold, particularly in buildings more than one story.

hot_rod

I think all plumbing codes talk about the tank vacuum breakers, snd when they are required

whether or not the inspector enforces  their use is another question 

bigbillynyc

Mad Dog as always thanks for your patience and help! Feeling blessed to have such a knowledgeable teacher. It feels great to keep learning different aspects of the trade and definitely keeps things interesting. I’m lucky to have a good deal of hands on work from
my other union trade so (I think 😆) I’ve been picking up things pretty quickly. Time to hit the books and start really retaining the names of all the working parts of these systems.

@Larry Weingarten good eye! We added the cold water valve and it totally made sense as Matt explained it. It’s nice sometimes to put in the extra work on things like adding a valve or using a new part instead of reusing old ones on an install. Makes you feel proud of your work and better for the home owner long term.

Mad Dog_2

I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

Mad Dog_2 said:

I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 

I'd just purchase a pipe cutter and a sharkbite Purposely making something difficult to work on seems a losing strategy, but OK!

LRCCBJ

delcrossv said:

No unions? 😳

I have never understood the purpose of unions on HWH. Without them, you utilize a coupling and have two sweats to perform. With them, you must remove one half of the union from the old HWH and sweat it to the new piping on the new one. What is the benefit here? You certainly will be praying that the old union will seat properly even though it has been on the HWH for 15 years! If you utilize a new union, you still have two sweats to perform!

The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.

SlamDunk

LRCCBJ said:

delcrossv said:

No unions? 😳

The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.

Hence, the benefit of sharkbites/flex hose combo for a hwh. I got tired of reworking the pipe on my own HWH. I know it is lazy, but it works reliably.

ChrisJ

LRCCBJ said:

No unions? 😳

I have never understood the purpose of unions on HWH. Without them, you utilize a coupling and have two sweats to perform. With them, you must remove one half of the union from the old HWH and sweat it to the new piping on the new one. What is the benefit here? You certainly will be praying that the old union will seat properly even though it has been on the HWH for 15 years! If you utilize a new union, you still have two sweats to perform! The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.

When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.

ChrisJ

bigbillynyc said:

Mad Dog as always thanks for your patience and help! Feeling blessed to have such a knowledgeable teacher. It feels great to keep learning different aspects of the trade and definitely keeps things interesting. I’m lucky to have a good deal of hands on work from
my other union trade so (I think 😆) I’ve been picking up things pretty quickly. Time to hit the books and start really retaining the names of all the working parts of these systems.

@Larry Weingarten good eye! We added the cold water valve and it totally made sense as Matt explained it. It’s nice sometimes to put in the extra work on things like adding a valve or using a new part instead of reusing old ones on an install. Makes you feel proud of your work and better for the home owner long term.

Good looking work keep at it.

LRCCBJ

ChrisJ said:

When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.

I wish I could ever get that lucky.

ChrisJ

LRCCBJ said:

When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.

I wish I could ever get that lucky.

I'm sure it's unlikely.

But it did happen. 

That said I also wish BF put the anode somewhere else. 

delcrossv

ChrisJ said:

LRCCBJ said:

delcrossv said:

No unions? 😳

I have never understood the purpose of unions on HWH. Without them, you utilize a coupling and have two sweats to perform. With them, you must remove one half of the union from the old HWH and sweat it to the new piping on the new one. What is the benefit here? You certainly will be praying that the old union will seat properly even though it has been on the HWH for 15 years! If you utilize a new union, you still have two sweats to perform!

The only way the unions work in a new install is to have the new HWH be at the exact same height as the old AND have the inlet and outlet at the same spacing as the old.

When I replaced my 50 gal Bradford White after 10 years the unions made it possible to slide a new heater in and use the same piping with no changes.

They also let me inspect and change the anode rods.

They also allow me to temporarily move the heater if I ever need to.





Exactly. Especially when you have several in a building.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Unions (at least water flex connectors) on every piece of equipment. And with what you’ve done there, you’re going to get electrolysis; eventually premature tank failure. 

Sorry @Mad Dog_2, I agree with almost everything you do because you usually do more than required and you use good quality materials, but not this time. 

And everyone: Don’t tread on me. This forum is about pros and cons, so tread lightly. Besides, I’m in a bad mood. 

pecmsg

Mad Dog_2 said:

I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 

When I got mine it was $5K

delcrossv

Mad Dog_2 said:

I don't think it warrants a vacuum breaker.  Haven't seen but one expansion tank crushed over the years.

Unions? Not on this one. I use them on certain jobs.  I prefer to hard pipe them in. It keeps Homeowners, GCs, and DIYers from taking our work away from a fellow professional plumber, maybe me.  Let them try to solder like We do or purchase a $1500
Press tool. Mad Dog 🐕 

And that's why I haven't hired out a HWH replacement in 30 years. I arrange things to be easy for me, as I'm gonna be the next guy replacing it.

The brass ells are a step up over the copper female thread to sweat I usually see- early failure guaranteed.

What's a press tool? 🤣

SlamDunk

Another reason I use sharkbites....my copper never looks that good.