Boiler Steam Heat Setup

TheDavidDDuncan

Hello, just moved into this property. We have 2 floors. 1st floor has 4 radiators and 2nd floor has 3 radiators. I was watching Dan Holohan on YouTube and he’s talking about how the setup is huge. Hopefully mine is okay. 

Mad Dog_2

Set up is huge?  Can u elaborate?  Pics please.  Mad Dog 🐕 

delcrossv

Your near boiler piping is incorrect, but not horrible. 
How is the system working?

bburd

delcrossv said:

Your near boiler piping is incorrect, but not horrible. 
How is the system working?

I would call that pretty horrible. It doesn't comply with the boiler manufacturer's requirements or good steamfitting practice. It should be black pipe rather than copper (except for the condensate returns). The steam main takeoffs should both be after the boiler riser and before the drop to the equalizer, not split to either side of the boiler riser as they are now, which will tend to throw water up into the left steam main. Also there is a reducer at the boiler steam outlet, which may not comply with the manufacturer's minimum piping specs depending on the rating of the boiler.

And the steam pipes should be insulated.

delcrossv

Ive seen worse.The $64k question is, any banging, water spitting out of vents etc? I'd be more concerned by the concentric reducer on the equalizer side.
I'm often amazed as to what shouldn't work, but does.

STEAM DOCTOR

Piping stinks. 

delcrossv

So, OP, are you having any issues?

Mad Dog_2

Seen much worse, but It is not right.  We all here try our damndest to follow the rules. You're all correct.  But, Most Homeowners could care less..they just want a quiet system that heats the house. Unless I see a serious, Life Safety Issue, I'll point things out but try to get things working 💪 better without a several thousand dollar repipe.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

Mad Dog_2 said:

Seen much worse, but It is not right.  We all here try our damndest to follow the rules. You're all correct.  But, Most Homeowners could care less..they just want a quiet system that heats the house. Unless I see a serious, Life Safety Issue, I'll point things out but try to get things working 💪 better without a several thousand dollar repipe.  Mad Dog 🐕 

A very good approach. Applause.

SteamingatMohawk

Where is the second return?

pedmec

Wow that's bad. Not even close.

SteamingatMohawk

This would be a great picture in a class on near boiler piping. How many wrong things can you find?

Panheadsforever

NOT HORRIBLE? The copper must go!

Panheadsforever

Read The lost art of steam heating dan holihan its available on amazon

steamisbest

help! can an electric powered boiler efficiently heat my steam radiator system? I have 3 floors, seven bedrooms. I am trying to decide to come off the natural gas grid. My steam radiators work well!!
I was advised that geothermal was not possible unless using hot water.

LRCCBJ

steamisbest said:

help! can an electric powered boiler efficiently heat my steam radiator system? I have 3 floors, seven bedrooms. I am trying to decide to come off the natural gas grid. My steam radiators work well!!
I was advised that geothermal was not possible unless using hot water.

You should start you own thread rather than hijack an existing one that is devoted to another member.


That being said, a very fast answer to your question can be provided if you provide answers to for the following:

1) What is the cost of electricity per KWH?
2) What is the cost of NG per therm?

Be careful to do your own math. The bottom number with all taxes and fees is what is required to divide by the usage.

Once you provide this, you will get your answer.

SteamingatMohawk

Putting the equivalent KW of electricity through the boiler, piping, etc. vs having electric baseboards seems to be less efficient. Probably running the wiring would be a major cost center, but raceways in the form of piping might make that less cumbersome.

Plus you get zoning of the heat.

Agreed on the hijacking comment.

pecmsg

steamisbest said:

help! can an electric powered boiler efficiently heat my steam radiator system? I have 3 floors, seven bedrooms. I am trying to decide to come off the natural gas grid. My steam radiators work well!! I was advised that geothermal was not possible unless using hot water.

Unless your electric rates are some of the lowest ………NO!

dabrakeman

I hadn't thought of using poultry litter...

AdmiralYoda

@dabrakeman I wonder how realistic that 0.11/kwh rate of electricity is. In MA it is closer to 0.20-0.25/kwh...but that is only part of the story. Once you add in the delivery/service/extras we pay upwards of 0.30-0.40/kwh in MA.

I had thought of one day converting to a heat pump and forced hot water system but this is proof why electric powered heat is not a viable option for me.....yet Unless the total, delivered cost of electricity is under 0.10/kwh it just can't compare to NG!

Jamie Hall

@dabrakeman -- I'm sorry. Really. But posting that table is seriously misleading. Electricity costs can vary by a factor of 10, depending on where you are -- as @AdmiralYoda pointed out, in most of New England the lowest residential rate, all-up, you can find is around $0.30 per Khh, and they up from there. In some areas with plentiful hydro, they may be a tenth of that. #2 diesel or fuel oil is about half again. Propane is double around here -- but in the midwest is less than half. And if you can find me a cord of split and dried hardwood for that price, I'll take it -- we charge double that, and could sell far more than we put up.

ethicalpaul

AdmiralYoda said:

@dabrakeman I wonder how realistic that 0.11/kwh rate of electricity is. In MA it is closer to 0.20-0.25/kwh...but that is only part of the story. Once you add in the delivery/service/extras we pay upwards of 0.30-0.40/kwh in MA.

I had thought of one day converting to a heat pump and forced hot water system but this is proof why electric powered heat is not a viable option for me.....yet Unless the total, delivered cost of electricity is under 0.10/kwh it just can't compare to NG!

Please don't bring heat pumps with their COPs of 3-5 into this discussion of electrical resistance heating vs fossil fuels.

dabrakeman

Jamie Hall said:

@dabrakeman -- I'm sorry. Really. But posting that table is seriously misleading. Electricity costs can vary by a factor of 10, depending on where you are -- as @AdmiralYoda pointed out, in most of New England the lowest residential rate, all-up, you can find is around $0.30 per Khh, and they up from there. In some areas with plentiful hydro, they may be a tenth of that. #2 diesel or fuel oil is about half again. Propane is double around here -- but in the midwest is less than half. And if you can find me a cord of split and dried hardwood for that price, I'll take it -- we charge double that, and could sell far more than we put up.

Certainly agree but that is all acknowledged in the source documentation that is cited at the bottom of the table and would think for those reading this post that would be obvious.https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/true-cost-of-energy-comparisons-apples-to-apples.html

The table would of course change rather dramatically for every local application. I think most people have a pretty good idea of what their gas and electric costs are so pretty easy to see how you would vary from the example table result. In my case average total electric cost would be about double the example (unless I only heated my house between 11pm and 7am😂) . Gas total cost in my case over the last year or so has averaged out around $1.06/therm. So in my case heating with electric might cost about 5x that of gas. Other areas even in Michigan (i.e. the UP) the ratio is even worse.

SteamingatMohawk

From the most recent bill for my home, electricity total cost (with all the adders) is $0.20 per KWH, NG is $0.81 per therm.