Problem with short-cycling, low water, and leaks

mattmia2

in any system the vents are open as soon as they are no longer steam hot. those systems lose something like a gallon a month through the evaporation through those vents. the vents aren't the source of your water loss if there even is any.

DiegoB

@pedmec, @ethicalpaul, @Jamie Hall , @LRCCBJ , @SeanBeans , @mattmia2 , @BobC , @dabrakeman , @KC_Jones , @ChrisJ , @WMno57 , @reggi

So, I took the advice from the group and turned off the boiler for the day yesterday. I skimmed the boiler first and got a bit of dirty water off the top. And took out about 10 gallons. I then closed off the skim port, and filled the water to near the top of the sight glass. Picture below at around 8 AM.


I came back at 6 PM and there was actually more water than where I left it!! So the returns are not leaking.


I've also checked the house and cannot find any significant moisture anywhere.

Now, there was some discussion about where the returns tied in at the Hartford Loop. I had a close look at that. On the boiler jacket, it clearly states the min water level. So, I measured that from the bottom and marked the same location at the back of the boiler with a red sharpie. The tie in is about 1.5" to 2" above the min water level, and it is below middle of the sight glass.





Do folks feel like this is on OK location for the return to tie back in?

As for the water leak, we now have 111 gallons that have been put in by the autofeed since the start of the winter season (Oct 2023).



Also, here is an example of a digital thermometer placed right above the thermostat


When I measure the trough to peak times, it is typically between 90 min to 120 min. And it takes this long to raise the temp of a 10 ft x 10 ft room on the 1st floor by 1 to 1.5 degrees.

I just would love to hear from the group --- if a boiler were, for example, 30-50% undersized - from both a BTU and water content perspective, are these the things you would expect to see:
1) radiators not getting hot enough
2) all the water in the steam chamber boiling off before there is enough steam to fill all the pipes and radiators

Any other thoughts on how to ID the leak? My theory was the air vents because I don't see any visible moisture damage from anywhere in the house.

Thanks all!

DiegoB

reggi said:

@DiegoB
This looks like it was set by a plumber trying to force the steam to the radiators ( Again I'm not a 1 piper but it looks high to me) Someone will correct me if I'm wrong 

Yes, the pressuretrol got cranked all the way up by the plumber that installed it. That photo was from winter of 2022-23. Was not happy with the oil bill. I turned it back to 1.5 for this winter season - and the performance has been the same.

WMno57

I liked @Jamie Hall car analogy because it made me think of something I see too often in the antique car world. People assume old technologies are obsolete and throwing new parts and technology at old cars is the solution. They even have a name for this; Restomod. The reality is they don't know how to diagnose and repair the old technologies.
Here on the wall we see the same thing all the time with steam heat. Example in this thread, where contractor wants to install hot water heat on first floor. That would add unnecessary parts and complexity to a system that has heated well without that for 100 years. Not necessary.

WMno57

This is a long shot but .................
Your Utica 4 section boiler has four cast iron sections that are connected together with cast iron push nipples. Sometimes the sections are joined at the factory. Sometimes the sections are joined by the installer in the basement (easier to get sub-assemblies down the stairs).
Do you have a lot of steam coming out your chimney?

ethicalpaul

I just would love to hear from the group --- if a boiler were, for example, 30-50% undersized - from both a BTU and water content perspective, are these the things you would expect to see:
1) radiators not getting hot enough
2) all the water in the steam chamber boiling off before there is enough steam to fill all the pipes and radiators

I thought you already heard, but it may have been difficult because of differing opinions

1. No
2. No

Plus, your boiler is less than 10% undersized by my measure

KC_Jones

So the boiler is satisfying the thermostat, good, boiler is big enough. Now that we have that out of the way you need to concentrate on what really matters right now and that is the water usage.

The water is going somewhere, it is a major problem, and it should be a priority.

Where does the pipe I circled go to? It appears to go underground in that picture, so need to clarify what's going on.

mattmia2

Turn off the valve to the auto feeder and watch the level closely and see if it falls. I'm not convinced it is actually feeding water or as much water as it clams it is.

If your boiler matches the connected radiation it won't build pressure, the radiation will condense all the steam the boiler produces and the pressuretrol won't need to do anything.

DiegoB

ethicalpaul said:

I just would love to hear from the group --- if a boiler were, for example, 30-50% undersized - from both a BTU and water content perspective, are these the things you would expect to see:
1) radiators not getting hot enough
2) all the water in the steam chamber boiling off before there is enough steam to fill all the pipes and radiators

I thought you already heard, but it may have been difficult because of differing opinions

1. No
2. No

Plus, your boiler is less than 10% undersized by my measure

@ethicalpaul - OK. So the boiler fits my house and is satisfying the thermostat. Theoretically, if someone where to install a boiler that was clearly 30%-50% undersized for a home -- what would you expect to happen?

mattmia2

The returns could also be clogged causing slow return to the boiler.

i'll say it again. the cycle guard stops the burner to check the water level every x minutes, this could be what you see as it "shutting down on low water level"

DiegoB

mattmia2 said:

Turn off the valve to the auto feeder and watch the level closely and see if it falls. I'm not convinced it is actually feeding water or as much water as it clams it is.

If your boiler matches the connected radiation it won't build pressure, the radiation will condense all the steam the boiler produces and the pressuretrol won't need to do anything.

@mattmia2 - hmmm - very interesting theory. Would i shut off the valve or just disconnect the power to the autofeeder?

mattmia2

There should be a valve ahead of the auto feeder on the supply from domestic cold water, just turn that off. If it were old there would be some question of if that valve was holding but it should be off when it is off in this case.

The auto feeder just measures the time it calls for water and assumes that much water entered the system in that time period.

The last test is to see if the boiler is leaking above the water line. That involves filling the boiler up until you feel the riser out of the boiler get cold from the water then waiting maybe a day or so and looking for water underneath and in the firebox of the boiler.

Are you sure it isn't spitting out a main vent in a corner of the basement somewhere?

ChrisJ

Was that autofeed also used for skimming etc?
I've never used one, so I don't know how they work.

mattmia2

ChrisJ said:

Was that autofeed also used for skimming etc?
I've never used one, so I don't know how they work.

There is a bypass valve underneath it to allow you to fill the boiler directly.

KC_Jones

I forgot to mention, it looks like your lower sight glass fitting is leaking. That green and corrosion shouldn't be there.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

I forgot to mention, it looks like your lower sight glass fitting is leaking. That green and corrosion shouldn't be there.

And that being on the boiler would mean it's evaporating very fast.

mattmia2

ChrisJ said:

KC_Jones said:

I forgot to mention, it looks like your lower sight glass fitting is leaking. That green and corrosion shouldn't be there.

And that being on the boiler would mean it's evaporating very fast.

But the water level didn't go down in their test with the sight glass full so it doesn't appear to be a fast leak.

DiegoB

ChrisJ said:

KC_Jones said:

I forgot to mention, it looks like your lower sight glass fitting is leaking. That green and corrosion shouldn't be there.

And that being on the boiler would mean it's evaporating very fast.

Good catch! Wow, you guys are amazing. After observing it for some time, I think its due to summer time condensation in the basement. I didn't run a humidifier, so it got crazy humid down there. I've been monitoring it and have a pan below to catch any drops. But yeah, the glass doesn't seem to be leaking.

DiegoB

mattmia2 said:

There should be a valve ahead of the auto feeder on the supply from domestic cold water, just turn that off. If it were old there would be some question of if that valve was holding but it should be off when it is off in this case.

The auto feeder just measures the time it calls for water and assumes that much water entered the system in that time period.

The last test is to see if the boiler is leaking above the water line. That involves filling the boiler up until you feel the riser out of the boiler get cold from the water then waiting maybe a day or so and looking for water underneath and in the firebox of the boiler.

Are you sure it isn't spitting out a main vent in a corner of the basement somewhere?

Thanks - will have a look at the autofeed again. For what its worth, i did run a test where I drained the water below the low water cutoff, to see if the the 1, 2, 3, or 4 gallon setting was best. In those events, the counter worked as expected based on the dip switch settings.

Put in brand new Gorton's at the beginning of the season. There's no sign of anything major going on there. Those vents don't have any moisture on them.

DiegoB

mattmia2 said:

The returns could also be clogged causing slow return to the boiler.

i'll say it again. the cycle guard stops the burner to check the water level every x minutes, this could be what you see as it "shutting down on low water level"

@mattmia2 - what can I do about slow returns that would not cost a ton of money?

STEAM DOCTOR

DiegoB said:

The returns could also be clogged causing slow return to the boiler. i'll say it again. the cycle guard stops the burner to check the water level every x minutes, this could be what you see as it "shutting down on low water level"

@mattmia2 - what can I do about slow returns that would not cost a ton of money?
You can try to drain them. But that might expose pinhole leaks. Only other inexpensive option is to pray. 

KC_Jones

Hartford loop return pipe looks right for the height, the original picture made it appear much higher. Need to keep digging for the leak. It's somewhere, it needs fixed.

In case you didn't know, the excess water will corrode the boiler out prematurely. We've seen people come here with boilers less than 5 years old replacing them due to the excess makeup water. You've already used about 15 years worth of makeup water.

Steam leaks are invisible, need a mirror or cold piece of metal to find them most of the time. Valve packings, main vents, pipe joints (rare), basically any place the steam can get out that it shouldn't.

DiegoB

KC_Jones said:

Hartford loop return pipe looks right for the height, the original picture made it appear much higher. Need to keep digging for the leak. It's somewhere, it needs fixed.

In case you didn't know, the excess water will corrode the boiler out prematurely. We've seen people come here with boilers less than 5 years old replacing them due to the excess makeup water. You've already used about 15 years worth of makeup water.

Steam leaks are invisible, need a mirror or cold piece of metal to find them most of the time. Valve packings, main vents, pipe joints (rare), basically any place the steam can get out that it shouldn't.

Hmmm ... worth another look around.

DiegoB

STEAM DOCTOR said:

DiegoB said:

mattmia2 said:

The returns could also be clogged causing slow return to the boiler.

i'll say it again. the cycle guard stops the burner to check the water level every x minutes, this could be what you see as it "shutting down on low water level"

@mattmia2 - what can I do about slow returns that would not cost a ton of money?
You can try to drain them. But that might expose pinhole leaks. Only other inexpensive option is to pray. 

STEAM DOCTOR said:

DiegoB said:

mattmia2 said:

The returns could also be clogged causing slow return to the boiler.

i'll say it again. the cycle guard stops the burner to check the water level every x minutes, this could be what you see as it "shutting down on low water level"

@mattmia2 - what can I do about slow returns that would not cost a ton of money?
You can try to drain them. But that might expose pinhole leaks. Only other inexpensive option is to pray. 

Might be easier to just get a new boiler. Something that can produce dry steam, and has enough water content for a house that is 4000+ sq/ft. Hey, if returns are slow, there's still water in the chamber.

ChrisJ

DiegoB said:

STEAM DOCTOR said:

DiegoB said:

mattmia2 said:

The returns could also be clogged causing slow return to the boiler.

i'll say it again. the cycle guard stops the burner to check the water level every x minutes, this could be what you see as it "shutting down on low water level"

@mattmia2 - what can I do about slow returns that would not cost a ton of money?
You can try to drain them. But that might expose pinhole leaks. Only other inexpensive option is to pray. 

STEAM DOCTOR said:

DiegoB said:

mattmia2 said:

The returns could also be clogged causing slow return to the boiler.

i'll say it again. the cycle guard stops the burner to check the water level every x minutes, this could be what you see as it "shutting down on low water level"

@mattmia2 - what can I do about slow returns that would not cost a ton of money?
You can try to drain them. But that might expose pinhole leaks. Only other inexpensive option is to pray. 

Might be easier to just get a new boiler. Something that can produce dry steam, and has enough water content for a house that is 4000+ sq/ft. Hey, if returns are slow, there's still water in the chamber.

Personally, I think the extra gallon the bigger boiler holds won't fix a broken system. A whole milk jug worth of water...

The previous boiler in my house rotted out once in 3 years, and then again in 5 years before I bought the house due to a leak.

Doesn't matter how big a boiler is, a broken system is a broken system. Putting new wipers on a busted windshield won't fix the windshield.

If I was you I'd address what are clearly problems and leave the 2 year old boiler alone for now.

mattmia2

If the returns are clogged you'll have to flush them out if you can. Otherwise you'll have to replace them. I'm thinking that should cost far less than a boiler.

The ultimate way to get dry steam is a drop header.

reggi

mattmia2 said:

Was that autofeed also used for skimming etc? I've never used one, so I don't know how they work.

There is a bypass valve underneath it to allow you to fill the boiler directly.

BUT... Other than the bypass under unit , CAN it be manually filled that it would register on the meter counter ( I'm not familiar with it either.. yet )

Jamie Hall

reggi said:

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

Was that autofeed also used for skimming etc?
I've never used one, so I don't know how they work.

There is a bypass valve underneath it to allow you to fill the boiler directly.

BUT... Other than the bypass under unit , CAN it be manually filled that it would register on the meter counter ( I'm not familiar with it either.. yet )

There should be on the top of the feeder a manual feed button, which should command the feeder to feed the amount it's programmed for -- and will record on the meter. Since someone brought up the point -- and I'm not going to read this whole thing to find out who it was -- that maybe the feeder isn't actually flowing water, it would be worth trying that button and seeing what the counter says -- and whether the boiler water level responds.

DiegoB

Jamie Hall said:

reggi said:

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

Was that autofeed also used for skimming etc?
I've never used one, so I don't know how they work.

There is a bypass valve underneath it to allow you to fill the boiler directly.

BUT... Other than the bypass under unit , CAN it be manually filled that it would register on the meter counter ( I'm not familiar with it either.. yet )

There should be on the top of the feeder a manual feed button, which should command the feeder to feed the amount it's programmed for -- and will record on the meter. Since someone brought up the point -- and I'm not going to read this whole thing to find out who it was -- that maybe the feeder isn't actually flowing water, it would be worth trying that button and seeing what the counter says -- and whether the boiler water level responds.

I think the feeder works because I have disconnected the thermostat, and have drained the boiler until it hits the low water cutoff. I've watched the feeder autofill and increment, under settings for 1 gal, 2 gal, 3 gal, 4 gal. So I've tested it from that perspective and it seems to be incrementing and feeding as expected.

DiegoB

reggi said:

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

Was that autofeed also used for skimming etc?
I've never used one, so I don't know how they work.

There is a bypass valve underneath it to allow you to fill the boiler directly.

BUT... Other than the bypass under unit , CAN it be manually filled that it would register on the meter counter ( I'm not familiar with it either.. yet )

I don't think there is a feed button on the autofeed. But I've disconnected the thermostat and drained the boiler, so the autofeed would kick in. I tested the autofeeder under a number of different fill settings, and the meter is consistent with the settings and water going in.

Sylvain

There should be button on top of the VXT which would energise the solenoid valve for manual feed.

reggi

@DiegoB
So if I'm reading this right, the VXT requires the auto feed , OR can the auto feed be turned off but yet would the low water cutoff perform as a ordinary lwco and sense low water and turn off the boiler ? This would eliminate the constant shutdown and wait to get it's "water level check" but still shut down if the level is low ?
If not turn the entire VXT off and visually monitor the waterline while it's going through it's cycle to see if it drops where you can cut it off if it drops too low in the glass..
I know what I mean but I'm not sure if it's possible or if I described it clearly, or correctly 

mattmia2

The probe type LWCO is a safety. The boiler won't fire if it isn't powered and sensing water.

@DiegoB how much water is it losing? I know you sait it read 99 but I've lost in the 3 pages over what period that is. A gallon or 2 per day through main vents or leaking valves or fittings wouldn't add enough humidity to a typically leaky house to be noticeable.

Grallert

KC_Jones said:

So the boiler is satisfying the thermostat, good, boiler is big enough. Now that we have that out of the way you need to concentrate on what really matters right now and that is the water usage.

The water is going somewhere, it is a major problem, and it should be a priority.

Where does the pipe I circled go to? It appears to go underground in that picture, so need to clarify what's going on.

This!! It also looks to me that there was a cut in the floor at some point. This could be an abandoned wet return or a funtioning wet return? What are we looking at there?

reggi

mattmia2 said:

The probe type LWCO is a safety. The boiler won't fire if it isn't powered and sensing water. 

So unlike the MM 67 that works independently as the safety device and the 101 auto feed is optional but not required, the VXT functioniality is dependent on the auto feed and can't be disabled to run the boiler for diagnostic purposes isolated from the VXT ?
Just want to verify what I proposing and why it wouldn't work for testing his system to see if the VXT is cutting out before the boiler is able to produce enough steam to fill the system.. If it keeps shutting down then it has to start over heating the pipes and the steam would be condensing on the cold pipes over and over and causing the lower radiator temperatures because they're not getting filled with dry,hot steam..

@DiegoB Have you tried closing some of your closer radiators off , that would reduce the load on the system and perhaps let the steam distribute it's energy to a more concentrated target..the 20 other radiators 
Still sounds like it makes sense to me, opposite of adding radiation to a oversized boiler..

mattmia2

reggi said:

mattmia2 said:

The probe type LWCO is a safety. The boiler won't fire if it isn't powered and sensing water. 

So unlike the MM 67 that works independently as the safety device and the 101 auto feed is optional but not required, the VXT functioniality is dependent on the auto feed and can't be disabled to run the boiler for diagnostic purposes isolated from the VXT ?
Just want to verify what I proposing and why it wouldn't work for testing his system to see if the VXT is cutting out before the boiler is able to produce enough steam to fill the system.. If it keeps shutting down then it has to start over heating the pipes and the steam would be condensing on the cold pipes over and over and causing the lower radiator temperatures because they're not getting filled with dry,hot steam..

@DiegoB Have you tried closing some of your closer radiators off , that would reduce the load on the system and perhaps let the steam distribute it's energy to a more concentrated target..the 20 other radiators 
Still sounds like it makes sense to me, opposite of adding radiation to a oversized boiler..

You can disconnect the valve and keep it from actually feeding water but it is called by the cyclegard which has to be functioning unless you are doing some sort of service procedure that you are observing closely.

ChrisJ

reggi said:

mattmia2 said:

The probe type LWCO is a safety. The boiler won't fire if it isn't powered and sensing water. 

So unlike the MM 67 that works independently as the safety device and the 101 auto feed is optional but not required, the VXT functioniality is dependent on the auto feed and can't be disabled to run the boiler for diagnostic purposes isolated from the VXT ?
Just want to verify what I proposing and why it wouldn't work for testing his system to see if the VXT is cutting out before the boiler is able to produce enough steam to fill the system.. If it keeps shutting down then it has to start over heating the pipes and the steam would be condensing on the cold pipes over and over and causing the lower radiator temperatures because they're not getting filled with dry,hot steam..

@DiegoB Have you tried closing some of your closer radiators off , that would reduce the load on the system and perhaps let the steam distribute it's energy to a more concentrated target..the 20 other radiators 
Still sounds like it makes sense to me, opposite of adding radiation to a oversized boiler..

The VXT is triggered by the LWCO.

The LWCO like the MM 67 is a double throw switch, so either the burner gets power or the feeder gets power.

DiegoB

reggi said:

mattmia2 said:

The probe type LWCO is a safety. The boiler won't fire if it isn't powered and sensing water. 

So unlike the MM 67 that works independently as the safety device and the 101 auto feed is optional but not required, the VXT functioniality is dependent on the auto feed and can't be disabled to run the boiler for diagnostic purposes isolated from the VXT ?
Just want to verify what I proposing and why it wouldn't work for testing his system to see if the VXT is cutting out before the boiler is able to produce enough steam to fill the system.. If it keeps shutting down then it has to start over heating the pipes and the steam would be condensing on the cold pipes over and over and causing the lower radiator temperatures because they're not getting filled with dry,hot steam..

@DiegoB Have you tried closing some of your closer radiators off , that would reduce the load on the system and perhaps let the steam distribute it's energy to a more concentrated target..the 20 other radiators 
Still sounds like it makes sense to me, opposite of adding radiation to a oversized boiler..

Haven't tried it yet because it's still cold and the spaces in house are all occupied. Could try it when the weather gets a bit warmer.

DiegoB

Grallert said:

KC_Jones said:

So the boiler is satisfying the thermostat, good, boiler is big enough. Now that we have that out of the way you need to concentrate on what really matters right now and that is the water usage.

The water is going somewhere, it is a major problem, and it should be a priority.

Where does the pipe I circled go to? It appears to go underground in that picture, so need to clarify what's going on.

This!! It also looks to me that there was a cut in the floor at some point. This could be an abandoned wet return or a funtioning wet return? What are we looking at there?

Most definitely a functioning wet return. The house is pretty old. My guess is at one point, before I owned the house, they probably had a leaky return and had to dig it out to replace it. It's good now.

ChrisJ

There's also an option to add a tank to the system for extra water.