gas steam boiler heating problem

KC_Jones

montek said:

I am sorry about that- I only gave roundabout numbers. But I edited it - thank you. About your choice - why wouldn't I do Number 2? I thought that by doing number 2 I was getting as close to a good operating fix without a boiler change- and so if I needed the boiler afterward it would not be a huge job then. what are your explanations for picking number 1 and then number 3 and NOT number 2 especially knowing where the future might end me up at? Thank you

If you do number 2 now, and the boiler finally dies in the next couple years, you’ll be doing number 3 when it does. So basically paying for 2 and 3. If the boiler was only 10 years old, I’d do 2 all day long, but it’s not. That vintage boiler, IMHO, you’re in the borrowed time portion of its life.

For me, if you’re ready to pull the trigger on something option 3 makes the most sense, including financially, in the long run.

montek

I appreciate that- but I can afford this fix if that is what it will take to make me whole again- it is just kind of hard to spend that kind of money for anything if you know what I mean. But that aside- I just want to know if such a small fix as doing the low water cut-off will fix the banging and heating problem OR do we have to go a step further like Number 2 or 3? I am still working and I am 67. I would rather spend now than when I get old and decrepit(LOL). So what I want to ask the plumber is basically will Number 1 help this situation or do I need to go further? And that is what I am hoping you can sort of advise me as well. Thank you for your kindness.

delcrossv

If it were me at least option2 and verify and correct pitch. But as said above, it's not my money.
If I were staying in the house for the next 10 years, Option 3 (+ correcting pitch)makes sense.

Whichever you pick, keeping up with maintenance is vital to having a trouble free system.

montek

Last question- can anyone tell me the quality of this boiler ---Supply/install New Yorker gas fired steam boiler, model # CGS50

delcrossv

Burnham makes them.

montek

Jamie Hall

It's a good boiler. So are a number of other makes of boiler. What is more important is the quality of the installation. A good installer can make a good boiler great. A poor installer can make the best boiler ever made into a piece of junk.

WMno57

Some of the older design Burnhams had a problem where they rotted out at the water line. Burnham came out with a new design called the MegaSteam to address this. This problem was most apparent in towns where the municipal water had high levels of chlorides.
You can get a water report from your town.
There are ongoing supply chain problems with steam boilers. It could be the New Yorker is the only boiler available to the Scullys on short notice. If you are willing to wait until this summer, Peerless, Weil McLain, and the Burnham MegaSteam would be worth a look. Williamson is a rebranded WM.
All Steam Boilers are the same efficiency.

dabrakeman

You can ask Scully about other options like Peerless or WM but may cost more and likely wouldn't make any difference unless you plan on living well over 100 . Scully wouldn't sell you a bad boiler and as the others have said it is the installation that is most important. You should be very happy with an install that looks like these (I assume Scully's works of art are public domain )

ethicalpaul

Jamie Hall said:

It's a good boiler. So are a number of other makes of boiler. What is more important is the quality of the installation. A good installer can make a good boiler great. A poor installer can make the best boiler ever made into a piece of junk.

Pardon the snarky question, but if it's a good boiler, why wouldn't Burnham put their name on it?

I know, I know, product segmentation, "umbrella of products", dilution of branding, etc etc etc but really, is it a good boiler? Why do you say it's good, @Jamie Hall ?

WMno57

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/189005/burnham-boiler-failure

WMno57

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/186445/burnham-steammax-thoughts

Someone please correct if this is wrong.
Burnham makes three designs:

• Independence
  
• SteamMax
  
• MegaSteam (Oil only, no gas?)
  

Is NewYorker a rebadged Independence?

ethicalpaul

It doesn't look like an Independence

Jamie Hall

In partial answer to @ethicalpaul 's comment. I haven't analysed the pros and cons of the entire range of boilers made by the company that makes Burnham boilers. However, I doubt very much that they make -- or sell rebadged -- a poor boiler. I suspect that they make boilers to various price points, however. This does not mean that a lower price point boiler is worse; it's just different. May have fewer bells and whistles. One can make the same comparison with the automotive world (or you could, when there were more brands). Is a Chevy a worse car than a Cadillac? No. Is it a different car? To some extent, yes. Some people can't afford a Cadillac. Some people wouldn't be caught dead in one. Some others wouldn't stoop so low as to ride in a Chevy. But they all get you from point A to point B...

ethicalpaul

Now you are talking about if it's a "poor" boiler...before you said it is a "good" boiler...the goalposts have moved

But now that I've probably annoyed Jamie today and maybe others, I'll say that none of us have much useful information about what boilers are good and what aren't. But I would never buy a Burnham Independence boiler. I would buy a Peerless 63 series again in a heartbeat.

dko

A more apt comparison would be comparing a Nissan 350Z to an Infiniti G35. Two different cars, two different brands (like WM/Williamson, Infiniti is a division of Nissan), nearly everything mechanically identical aside from lsd, interior design, and shell.

Notice any similarities?


All Burnham subs. No identical boiler under the Burnham logo. New Yorker does have the X-2 and X-PV rebadge.

KC_Jones

dko said:

A more apt comparison would be comparing a Nissan 350Z to an Infiniti G35. Two different cars, two different brands (like WM/Williamson, Infiniti is a division of Nissan), nearly everything mechanically identical aside from lsd, interior design, and shell.

Notice any similarities?


All Burnham subs. No identical boiler under the Burnham logo. New Yorker does have the X-2 and X-PV rebadge.

You missed one, not sure if there are any others.

ethicalpaul

"I'll never try that junk Archer brand again! Next time I'm going with a Force!"

dko

Proselect force is a Ferguson brand, Burnham rebadges for another major distributor can't remember. Utica does it for AF (Green Mountain).. forgot who does it for FW Webb's PurePro line probably Burnham. Well, probably more accurate to say U.S. Boiler Company.

Jamie Hall

Whatever. Bottom line here is that if the Scullys install it for you, it's going to be fine.

montek

Whew- wow- I got you guys all riled up you guys know your stuff- I surrender LOL- The reason I started this conversation is that the Boiler I have now is the Dunkirk
My model number is 235AAW007112AADA and the serial number is 3685V01918. I just wanted to see if there was another Dunkirk boiler is that equal to what I have now especially since it lasted so long and is still really working with all the wrong stuff going on around it? So I looked on the Dunkirk site and saw the picture I attached and wanted to know what you thought as compared to the New Yorker brand

By the way, we had to bang in pipes last night so I got up at 2 AM and lowered the thermostat to 66, and got up this morning at 7 AM and the sight glass was filled to its normal point????

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I do have a better one for you also. My water heater is from 1986 and is a Rheem Fiberglass that is working fine also. We never have brown water and we never have had a problem with our hot water I know that this is old for a water heater. We had an A/C man come over to our basement to install ductless A/C's about 10 years ago. He stated back then to get rid of it like yesterday. Well, that was 10 years ago and it is still here. The only problem we have with it is that when someone showers ONLY- we hear the bubbling or the popcorn noises from the water heater. I was told that it is the sediment on the bottom that the water has to bubble up from to do its job and thus the noises. I called Rheem and they said there are no more replacement parts BUT some units have been known to last 70 years. WOW!!!! They also said if it has not been flushed lately to NOT START NOW. believe it or not, I must change my habits in the future with new products.. because I have lived here for 35 years and have never flushed the water heater and from looking at the decal on the boiler the last mainetnace was done in 1986 when the original owner lived here. And look how far the boiler has survived with truly no maintenance. What I call that is THE OLD America. They do not make them like they used to. That is why I want to keep the old stuff. I have heard horror stories from friends who bought NEW AO Smith water heaters and in 7 years they leaked. HOLY moly!-- So there you have it gentlemen. An old boiler and an old water heater and BOTH look brand new on the exterior(I keep them spic and span on the exterior. But I am not sure that if I go the distance and buy a new boiler as close to the one I have now as stated above- we should also go for a new water heater. Oh Boy???

ethicalpaul

Utica makes Dunkirk style boilers, and some other brand names are out there too. I like Utica as a company, they have good documentation and my old Utica lasted a long time with no maintenance from the previous owner.

however, Dunkirk style boilers with their side-oriented supply pipes in my opinion are a lot more prone to surging. And they require both supply pipes be used which a lot of contractors don't do.

But I did get mine running well with a ridiculous non-header and only one side piped so it can be done, but it's not as easy as a Peerless or Weil-McClain.

Based on your model number (I didn't look it up, so beware), yours seems like a 112kBTU model. Utica still makes that size and I think they make a 75k also which is a little smaller. You should measure the EDR of your radiators to ensure that you get the correct size. Compare total EDR to the sq ft of steam rating of different boilers.

KC_Jones

The boilers haven't changed much in the time frame you are discussing, a few safeties have been added, but basically the iron parts are about the same. I replaced my boiler in 2014. The old one was from 1982, so 32 years old. The new one was the same line (EG) from the same company, just a smaller size since the old one was oversized. For the boiler, as I stated above, I'd be replacing it if I was making a move.

I agree with Paul, those side outlets are a less than ideal design and just about any other brand with top outlets would be a better choice.

montek

realliveplumber

Regarding the water heater, we see 10 to 12 year life expectancy in NJ with municipal water.

The problem anywhere, when they to be 15 years plus, is that they typically don't fail with a small leak, that is noticeable and manageable, they tend to fail catastrophically with a massive leak.

Replace the water heater at the same time as the boiler. You'll be getting a permit anyway. Might as well add it to it and save some money on permit fees.

I would wait untill heating season is over.

Besides, its almost over anyway. Pretty soon it'll be pool season.

dabrakeman

Where are people getting that the New Yorker is side tapped??? Looks like top tap to me.

ethicalpaul

I don't think that was stated (that New Yorkers are Dunkirks). The OP said he currently has a Dunkirk design and he wondered how it would compare to the New Yorker. It's possible I missed something though...you know how these threads get

dabrakeman

Yes, definitely gets confusing as I can see the switch to Dunkirk discussion. OP just needs to know the quoted boiler is top tapped.

WMno57

I agree with you about OLD America. I could go on for days about products that were better. I hate to replace things that are working, just because they are old. In the case of your boiler and water heater, I think they are both at end of life. Downtime with heat or water is always inconvenient. I think the benefit of planned downtime on your schedule will be worth the cost of giving up a few years of remaining appliance life.
In Old America we had more people who had the skills to fix things. I don't see that getting better anytime soon. You are fortunate to have found the Scullys.
If you were 30 years old and liked DIY projects, it might be different.
I just replaced a leaking 24 year old water heater. Had to get help getting it into the basement. Multiple trips to the hardware store, and several do overs to fix leaking piping. Unbeknownst to me the flue was rotted out. That necessitated another trip to a friendly local supply house. Also getting harder to find in New America.

montek

This is to you, Mr. WNn57-- I love your reply- sounds so much like me. I truly dislike what has happened to our ingenuity and workmanship. I truly am emotionally attached to this wonderful work of marvel that is my water heater. And I have heard that new ones will be lucky to get 10-12 years from them. Such a shame. I know the writing is on the walls BUT it will be like saying goodbye to a truly good old friend if I take out my water heater. if you would I am going to post a reply I received from an older gentleman on YouTube- he calls himself the Grumpy Plumber and here is what he had to say to my question about the heater-- read on --- here is his reply after i explained my water heater sounds and age---
The Grumpy Plumber
The first thing you should do, after giving your wife a morning hug and kiss, is go hug that water heater. I have never installed a fiberglass water heater. My philosophy is, that if the heater doesn’t leak, don’t replace it. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If someone comes to your house and tells you to replace the heater, kick them out the door. Appreciate your kind words. P.S. I once replaced a copper heater that lasted 64 years. The heater wasn’t leaking, the homeowners were just remodeling.
That was this plumber's reply- check him on YouTube- an older generation plumber. I guess he feels like you and I do- but does that make him correct?? What do you think?

WMno57

@montek Thanks for the YouTube tip. I will check that out.
I can definitely understand the keep it till it dies philosophy. I also think with minimal maintenance you could get 15 - 20 years on a new water heater. The short life reports are coming from homes with bad water. Unless the water for your town has changed recently, it has seemed to treat your old boiler and water heater well.
A mixing valve for the water heater would be a good idea too. That will protect you and your wife from Legionnaires' Disease.
For your situation, I still recommend new boiler and new water heater. It could wait till this summer.
I do think your current boiler and especially the water heater are near end of life. How near is impossible to estimate.

montek

I know you are right. I just feel so attached to these two dinosaurs. They have treated me so well with literally almost no problems over 39 years that I feel like I am saying goodbye to two very tried and true friends that have never even been maintained EVER and look how well they performed. But I am not getting any younger and neither are they and that is the conundrum.

montek

Just wanted all to know that Scullys is truly a gem. Nothing or no one I have ever met as a plumber or person even comes close. he truly is a gem and so knowledgeable. he came over this morning and asked a few questions. He asked what might have changed in our home since this whole banging and heating problem occurred. He checked the pitch on the return pipe and saw that when the previous contractors who finished our basement in january closed in the pipes they lifted them to fit into the new enclosure or soffit. he took away the part that was changing the pitch and IMMEDIATELY we heard the water returning to the boiler and it filled to the normal level. he was amazing and he said now I have time to watch it for a few weeks or so and then we can make a new decision. he even looked at the water heater and after some discussion, he said nothing was a rush. What a gentleman and what a great guy. He is so honest knows his stuff and does not panic the homeowner. So confident in his work etc. Whatever I do in the future which might be a new boiler and water heater as time tells- he will be the ONLY company I will want doing it. I thank you all and I truly thank Scullys for being in my corner.

dabrakeman

I heard he was moving to Michigan

SteamingatMohawk

I may be too late to this discussion. I have a few observations and apologize if they have already been mentioned.

1. There is a statement early in the discussion that the boiler is 1985 vintage. It is possible the Pressuretrol is the mercury switch version. If that is the case it is installed improperly on the pigtail. When the pigtail heats up and sees pressure it tries to unwind. With the pigtail side to side that affects the mercury switch. If the switch is not mercury it's OK.

2. I don't see any pressure gauge.

3. You mention Varivalves. The minimum capacity is about a #5 with the valve "shut" and a capacity larger than a "#1" when fully open. It does not completely prevent venting. I suggest you do a survey of all your vents and determine the capacities as you work on all the other items in this discussion. If you are not familiar with the Balancing Steam Systems report, it is here:

https://www.heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/balancing-steam-systems-using-a-vent-capacity-chart/

Doing the calculations presented in the report is not absolutely necessary, You just want to get a feel for how much venting your are trying to achieve at each location. Also, it may be worthwhile to read the update at the end of the report about overventing.

adambuild

Forgive me if this was already mentioned, is it possible that when the work was done finishing the basement a steam pipe was raised or lowered?

montek

Let me just reply to all and I thank you all that my beautiful vintage boiler is working in tip-top shape(thank goodness)- On Scully's first visit he cleaned and drained the boiler which has not been done since 1986 as I stated much earlier. And upon doing what he did the NEW water level in the sight glass remained very low(below the manufacturers' decal for where the water line was supposed to be. With the boiler running to give heat to the home- the water level dropped below the cut-off switch and out of sight in the sight glass and the boiler turned off. This went on for about one week. Thked and Scully came back to talk about the options we had for the future fix and this was the other brother who I was told was an expert in steam heating systems. So when he came over we talked and he asked me what is different in the system that made it work so erratically. So I mentioned my basement was just redone and that set his mind to working overtime. he checked the pitch of the RETURN pipe. Because as he knew the water was NOT returning to the boiler quickly enough nor fully as it should up to the original water level. So he put a level on the return pipe in the area under the cubby hole(under the stairs)- which we use as storage and he noticed that there was an added piece of plywood that was put up to close off that under the stairs cubby hole from the other room so as not to see inside the storage area. believe it or not- the top of that piece of plywood was right underneath that section of the return pipe. he immediately took that piece of plywood down(which is not needed anyway- and we automatically heard the sound of returning water. He asked me to go check the sight glass and amazingly it was refilled to the original proper level. That was last Saturday and ever since my pipes have NOT banged. The cut-off switch does NOT go off(and the light never goes red) and the water returns to the boiler quicker than it ever has. I can hear it as the boiler is on. I then checked my daughter's radiator which is upstairs on the OTHER side of the house which Has NOT gotten hot for years. We all thought that it might be a faulty vent and they were going to check that. But I must say that since he corrected the pitch on that return pipe- even my daughter's radiator is steaming hot. WOW. So to answer that last gentleman's reply- yes he found the flaw in the pitch of the return pipe and corrected it and all is working amazingly well. I cannot thank Dan Scully enough for locating the problem because as he stated even with a new boiler we might have encountered the same problem. A true gentleman and a truly knowledgeable plumber who saved the homeowner an unwarranted job. I truly appreciate his help and his company Scully Plumbing for being there for us. he will come back to tweak a few things later in the season along with adding Wi-FI accessibility to my water heater so that if something happens with that I will be able to remotely shut it off. After seeing what he did for me- I trust any suggestion he has for me now. So there you have it men- I am good to go and Scullys has helped us immensely.
P.S.-- he will also be coming back to probably change all the air vents as well and balance the system at a later daye But he said that all can wait that I am in the drivers seat now and that the emergency is over and done with.