Homeowners Versus Contractors

ethicalpaul

You don't want to use solely market pricing, nor a straight markup. Either one alone can make you lose potential money, or lose your business.

You have to know how much you can charge (you want to maximize this) but still get enough jobs that your revenue goals are met.

I'm constantly telling small business owners to raise their prices. You can always tell if they aren't charging enough if they are swamped with work. Never turn away a customer with your backlog/calendar...always turn them away with your price.

You didn't want those customers who don't recognize your value anyway.

There's something about independents who take pride in their work--they often have this great reluctance to raise their price. If your calendar starts stretching out, raise it!! Give the little old lady a break if you want, or give your favorite customers a break if you want, but raise the baseline!

hot_rod

Mad Dog_2 said:

KC. I disagree with you. Many DO care how  much everything costs and want a break down: Materials, labor, so they DO know your profit more or less. If you're number.is low or in the wolf pack with others, they may not question it, but when you usually the higher priced bid...you bet they care AND ask "Why are YOU so much higher?"  This fact sheet quiets them IMMEDIATELY. The Great Frank Blau (RIP) designed it I believe.  It was part of his whole system   Richie English All Island Radiant could tell you.  When I moved on Richie, I simply called the Phone number on it. Back then it was BADGER DATA FORMS...another company now makes them.

I had that argument about my overhead with an obnoxious attorney once.
Atty: "Why are you higher than So and so?"
Well, Counselor, I have a professional shop, secretary that answers each call, office manager and we do 24/7 365 Service. Our guys are drug tested,  our trucks are fully stocked, et cetera." Me "Joe, So and so works out his house, has a van the leaked oil on your driveway, doesn't return your calls for days, and doesn't answer his phone at night or weekends...remember?  Thats how you found me...He put your boiler in, it leaked that night, and he never picked up and you had to call me.."  

Atty: "Yeah, but Your Overhead is too high, you have to bring it down to be more competitive!!" 

"Good luck, Joe, you two deserve eachother  ha ha 😂 😘 😆 😄 ."

Believe it not, Joe stills call here and there.

Me: "Hiya Joe...can't u get so and so??"
Maybe he should raise his overhead so he can offer YOU better & more professional service!  Good luck!"    Mad Dog 🐕 

Ever get a breakdown from an attorney on their charges? Why are some 100 bucks and hour and others 500? All without guaranteed results.

When disasters hit, COVID freeze ups, infrastructure breakdowns. Are attorneys the first responders.

Mad Dog_2

The Great Holohan Friend and Business consultant, Al Levi said: "The Market will let YOU know when you're prices are too high!"  Mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

Mad Dog_2 said:

The Great Holohan Friend and Business consultant, Al Levi said: "The Market will let YOU know when you're prices are too high!"  Mad Dog 🐕 

But not when they are too low! You will be too busy to think about it!

EBEBRATT-Ed

The prices in the above I think are for install and construction. A service business will likely have to charge more. Construction and install are generally for full days of working. With service you are hopping from job to job and a 6 1/2 or 7 hour job may have to be charged out at 8 hours. The efficiency on service calls is often less. Trips to the supply house, interrupted by phone calls about other jobs or the next service call etc


The #s he used above will always be subject to debate. They will change for area to area. To my mind they have no meaning.

It is the method used to arrive at the calculation is the important thing.

It is more like a check list to find your real costs and what you need to charge.


One thing that make my blood absolutely boil is when customer wants a complete breakdown of every item. Its none of their business. It's your business.

One of my bosses used to do this and it made me nuts. You are running your business. Your calculations are YOUR private information. He would say "The customer wants this" How stupid. He actually used to go "open book " with one of our best accounts and show them everything. All they did was take the information to another contractor in an effort to get a better price.

I don't believe in giving the customer ANY information that they can peddle to other contractor's about your business.

The more information you give them the more they can use it against you.

My breakdown would be Labor, Material and sales tax. If they want more of a breakdown than that find someone else.

Mad Dog_2

The More modern and professional you wanna be....higher O H costs. Been there, done that...Run super lean now...  Mad Dog 

Teemok

“To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.”
― Douglas Adams
Both customers and contractors. Trust, skill and responsiveness are what most customers openly desire. Some customers will blatantly waste your time and would have you work breaking even or even for free. Some customers don't understand the difficulty involved or don't have any real respect for the trade, much less an understanding of physics or the true operating costs. A lawyer is worth $700 an hour to write a letter but the guy diagnosing your $60k mess of a heating system shouldn't be so arrogant or bold.
It's a strange thing to be looked down on by someone who is simultaneously asking you to solve problems that are beyond their current or potential understanding capability. This sets up an antagonistic dynamic.
Choose your customers well. The good ones are thrilled to find someone both capable and concerned. They want you around in the future and are happy to pay you well to stay in the game.
The expensive nature of the trade and rarity of its mastery makes for many variances in customer experience. I worked for a smart, experienced, organized and professional shop owner, who, when being honest in confidence, expressed he sees customers as victim's. He was no longer in the field and would hire and fire many to keep one half way decent yes person PIC for his medium sized wealth extraction scheme. This leads to problems. He didn't seek to cross the lines of the legal but like the brutality of a casino, he always took as much as he could despite the mixed service offered. He started in the fighting stance, blocking, moving and striking to get what he imagined he was owed, by the mere ringing of the phone. Google adds are not cheap ya know.
I've had customers express that I charge too much. I think being good and concerned can make difficult things look easy. A large well stocked rolling warehouse adds to that erroneous idea. It might be older but my truck doesn't leak oil!
Standing by your work: Being able and wiling to investigate and fix potential problems is a customer expectation that they don't think they are paying for but they are if unaware. If they aren't paying for it, they won't get it.
Let's not forget we rely on manufactures products. They are a factor in how business relations go. To some degree that's in our control. I see guys making a few extra bucks and sales perks but they are associated the problems that come with their offerings.
Experienced, caring and honest contractors are out there but they are found in the 20% of the 80/20 rule. They are not always local, available and should not be inexpensive. The older I get the more willing I am to politely walk away from from opportunities where the project, owner or contractor raises concern. Learning to read and avoid the troubled is key. Unfortunately many of those who have needs for and can afford high level services can also afford to be well disconnected from reality. The 80/20 rule applies to pay rates. Want someone who's better than 80% of the competition, you'll have to pay in the top 20% of the pay scale.

GW

@SlamDunk cool cool, hats off for keeping the good fight going. Maybe someday you can bow out and grab a nice place in lesser costly area of the country. Or, say put-- you wouldn't be the first (to be carried out), I'm sure.

SlamDunk

@GW, that is the plan!

SlamDunk

@EBEBRATT-Ed ,

You are right to not give breakdowns. I would never ask for one myself just as I wouldnt even tell my own family members, let alone a contractor, what I make.

However, on a recent job I needed done, I asked what tonnage and btu hvac system he intended to install. He balked and said I could use that info against him by giving it to his competitors. So, I told him what I wanted installed. He said if that equipment was undersized it would be on me, not him.
Not worried about that, I tell him. Does it change the price any? No.

Hmmmm. I think was a valid negotiation point.

Competent,honest business owners will always be in it for the long haul. I have a few on speed dial and use them without getting bids. If I can wait three months.

In the homeowners versus contractors argument, homeowners come across crackpot contractors just as contractors come across crackpot homeowners.

GroundUp

That equipment sizing thing is a huge pet peeve of mine because I spent an hour of my time figuring this out for them, and the vast majority of people I deal with are going to take that info somewhere cheaper. I understand why some people want to know, and we see it all the time here on HH that someone gets 3 estimates for the same boiler replacement but one boiler is 2.5x the size of another. Whether a customer or a contractor, who do you trust?

On a similar note, it always makes me giggle when people have no problem spending $20/sq ft on fancy flooring, but refuse to pay $6/sq ft for the heating system that keeps them warm for the next 30 years. It's truly baffling, to me.

ChrisJ

@GroundUp

Of course this is just my opinion but I rank importance in the following order


1 : roof
2 : foundation
3 : plumbing
4 : heating
5 : electrical
6 : AC

Floors come after those but I'm not sure where vs the other luxuries.

EBEBRATT-Ed

My quotes used to be very detailed....too much detail in fact. I found this out when an honest competitor showed me a copy of my quote that the customer gave him.

I have also had customers give me a copy of a competitors quote asking me "can you beat this price"

Contracting is a rotten dirty business.

After that I would give as few details as possible. Problem is when you do that the scope YOU have may not match what the customer THINKS he is getting and you have no protection.

RollCNY

I have a question kind of adjacent to this topic:

Ever sizing thread on HH starts with the answer "do a heat loss" or "did your contractor do a heat loss?"

I would assume doing an accurate heat loss takes getting familiar with a buildings dimensions and build spec, and then calculating, so a contractor would be doing several hours free work to get the quote accurate.

Doesn't that advice set the homeowner against the contractor from step one?

Every quote I received had an oversized boiler.  They weren't itemized (and I wouldn't expect them to be unless they include options, or capital/expense item breakdown) but they called out a specific boiler and model. It seems like they can't pick a model without doing the heat loss, and shouldn't do the heat loss without getting paid to do it.

trivetman

Appreciate the dilemma of not wanting to give away too much information, but don’t you lose good business by being too vague on a quote.  Ive paid top dollar to contractors who have told me in detail what they’re going to do and given me enough information about why its priced the way it is so i trust what I am going to get.  After the job is done I more often than not count the man hours which were put in, ballpark the materials cost and realize I got a fair deal and they got a reasonable profit.  Sometimes I think they need to ask me for some more money after I count the man hours.


I’m probably in the minority of homeowners who are more likely to pay the top $$ quote than the bottom $$ one as long as I understand what I am paying for.  Theres got to be others, right?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@trivetman

It's a no win situation. With you being an honest customer, more details are better. But how does a contractor know that his quote is not being passed from contractor to contractor by the customer?

trivetman

Business is often a no win situation,  and its not just in hvac or contracting.  I do a ton of analysis for insurance contracts which are doomed to die.  But appreciate that its a lot more painful when its small business and owner-operated.  My time is paid in salary whether or not that business goes anywhere.  At the corporate management level its called due diligence.  The inefficiencies are just the nature of competitive business.

And I am an honest customer, but shopping around is part of the process and by nature that wastes people’s time.  Ive got some contractors I know I am giving them the work before I pick up the phone.  But until I find that guy in the field that I trust I’m just calling a stranger for a quote and hoping for the best.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@RollCNY

No win situation. Do the survey and don't get paid. Include that time in the price of the job and hope u get it. Steam is fairly easy just measure the rads etc you can probably survey the average house and come up with a total EDR in and hour or an hour and a half. if it's a mcmansion or has convectors with metal covers or radiator enclosures then it's a different story.

Hot water a heat loss will take some time. You can cheat and ask them how the house heats with the old boiler. If it's ok just measure the footage of baseboard and go off that. Warm air is even worse.

best thing is to get a vibe from the customer if they are getting a bunch of quotes or you don't get a good vibe you walk. If you think you have a good chance spend the time.

KarlW

@RollCNY

RollCNY said:

I would assume doing an accurate heat loss takes getting familiar with a buildings dimensions and build spec, and then calculating, so a contractor would be doing several hours free work to get the quote accurate.

That’s the problem with home renovations, we generally only hire mechanics, not engineers. I might get blowback on this one, but in a perfect world an engineer is sizing and specifying the boiler, not a mechanic. The two jobs very much work in hand-in-hand but have different roles.

Professionally, I scope, bid, and manage facility improvements for a Fortune 500 Company. Currently, I’m working on a large (200+ton) chiller replacement, one of seven in the building. By hiring an engineer for the chiller project we saved a lot of money. The engineer determined that our building’s pipes only had so much capacity, and a larger chiller would not get us more capacity. This stinks as we are short on capacity and replacing the pipes would be a significant challenge.

For home improvements, good luck hiring an engineer. A mechanic replacing a boiler can do the sizing, but this tends to be by table-based rules of thumb (EDR) with a larger than needed safety factor built in - you can read a whole bunch of posts here about EDR still over sizing boilers.

But, the contractor who tells you need an engineer and charges appropriately isn’t getting the job. Thus there’s no market for engineers and only a tiny one for even architects in the home improvement world.

My gripe is that I don’t get taken seriously by contractors despite specifying this stuff for a living. I’ve come to learn my limitations as an engineer and not a mechanic and hire when it requires troubleshooting I can’t do, is beyond my skill, or I’m not in position to deal with consequences of failure - I hired a contractor this fall specifically to break open a valve nut after I gave it a lot stress to the point I was worried about breaking it. I wouldn’t have been able to repair the pipe if I broke it, but they would.

delcrossv

Went through 4 quotes when I wanted to re-do the scorched air system at my house- furnace was on its last leg and I was building an addition. The previous system was an unbalanced, noisy mess all done in 6" round hooked up to the remains of the original 1920's gravity system. My folk's house, built in the 50's, had fabricated ductwork sized for the flow, with inline balancing, diverters etc.

I mentioned if they could do that and the first 3 said, no ,that's old school- you need 6" round. (!)

The 4th, which also did a lot of commercial sheet metal work, said sure, we can do that. So the apprentice spent part of his summer on our driveway with a brake and a roll former and I got what I asked for. And I gladly paid the freight for it. Was it more then the other guys? Yep, but not excessively so and the value to me was there.

offdutytech

This is a complex one. I've taken the approach at educating the customer upfront so that they can make an informed choice. I usually try and spend about an hour or so on site measuring, explaining things and listening to the customer. Granted the time spent on the estimation visits is dependent on the size and scope of the work. Then it's usually another hour or so after the fact doing the load calcs and proposal. That time gets factored into my price. I've created spreadsheets with the parts we typically use, pipe/material cost, labor and profit. So it's a fairly quick process for me to do an estimate maybe 20 min. I then have a few templates created for different proposals like steam , hydronic or HVAC equipment. I try to highlight the key points on the bid so customers can see what they are getting but don't break down my price for each item. 
We try and give a fair, honest price and provide quality work. It's knowing your market and competition. Have we lost jobs because of price? 100% I might have lost the job initially, but I can say more times than not I've been called back for service or to"fix" a competitors install. At the end of the day it's still business and reputation goes a long way. People who value quality will seek companies out that provide a good product and service.

ScottSecor

As a contractor, I am surprised by some potential clients. This happened a few weeks ago.

On Monday , we received a call for a no heat emergency. This was a new customer, he mentioned the steam boiler needed to be refilled daily. We visited the site and met with the homeowners, who were in their seventies. Husband did most of the talking as I took my notes and measurements. Last thing I asked was for an email address, so I could send them my proposal. I was surprised to learn they did not have an email or a computer in the house. Instead, he asked me to hand carry the proposal. That night I dropped it off before heading home.

Tuesday, I get a call and was informed they want to move forward with the boiler replacement. I offered them a basic gas to gas steam boiler proposal, with an option to update the hot water heating loop that was now over thirty years old. I forgot to ask the customer about the option when we spoke on the phone. I ordered the new boiler and near boiler piping and scheduled the delivery for the following day. I drove to the building department and submitted the required permit applications.

Wednesday, I got to the job early and asked for the required deposit and signed contract. This is when I learned the customer never read the two page proposal. He simply wrote the check for the deposit and signed the contract. We started removing the old boiler and bringing the new unit into the basement. By 8pm that night the heat was on, boiler was skimmed and flushed and customer was ecstatic they now had heat on a cold winter night.

Thursday, the town notifies us that the permits are ready, we pay the fee and pick them up. Later that day we stop at the jobsite and pick up the balance due. I ask the husband (now wearing a tee shirt instead of his winter coat), why he didn't read the contract. His reply, I trusted you. By the way, we charged him half of the cost for the optional hot water loop upgrade, as we replaced about half of the components (pump, control and below waterline piping).

I have been thinking about this customer often. I'm starting to wonder if more of our customers have this same idea of not reading the proposals?

Intplm.

Yeah.
I believe, and if I'm not mistaken, that there was law passed in the state of Connecticut stating that a cost break down of material and labor is to be provided to the customer.
It didn't say if it was mandatory or when and if the customer asks for it.
Now that's a can of worms .

GroundUp

@ScottSecor I had a similar call about a month ago. No heat in a dual fuel electric over LP hot water system. It took me some time to get my bearings, but I found that the electric boiler had a burned contactor and the original wiring from 20 years ago never allowed the LP boiler to run so it was brand new, and full of acorns and leaves and whatnot as the original installer also never installed a screen on the vent pipe.

The homeowner came down to check on me after a couple hours and I was elbow deep in the LP boiler cleaning the crap out so I could get the heat on. I explained what I'd found and what I was in the process of doing- it was at this time they let me know I was the 4th contractor they'd had out there that week and nobody else was even able to figure out the contactor thing, much less get the heat on. One sold them a new pump they didn't need (and never purged the system so there was no flow, which I corrected), one sold them new relief valves they didn't need (and left the old ones laying on the floor), and the other one just charged his trip fee and left with no work done. I got the LP boiler running then gave them options on repairing vs replacement of the electric boiler, and they opted for the repair which I hadn't yet given a price for. I suggested maybe I should get them a quote first so they're not sticker shocked later and they said something I would never have expected. "I trust you to do the right thing. I don't know anything about this stuff and after seeing how quickly you were able to diagnose the issue after 3 other supposed professionals overlooked something so simple, you have our confidence." A few days later I installed the new contactor as well as rewired the system for automatic backup with the LP unit during on-peak hours, sent them the bill, and they were as happy as could be.

Fast forward to last week when it was -20F, no heat again. Further diagnosis showed 2 bad elements (top two) in the electric boiler which I can only attribute to the guy before me who swapped the pump and didn't purge the system of air, or simply a fluke- I had not tested them previously because the unit was making heat and the 2nd stage was engaging. Again, I explained what was wrong and said I'd check on parts cost and availability to get them a repair quote but ballparked it verbally. They just said "no, I don't want to repair this again. You warned me last time that this may be on borrowed time and I wanted the cheap repair, but I can't be having this happen all the time. Just replace it with whatever you think would be best." I interjected and said a replacement is 20x the cost of replacing these elements, and it may last another 10 years without issue. The response again was "I trust you to do what's best, and I'd like you to install a complete new system. I know there are risks with new equipment as well, but that's a chance I'm willing to take. You treated me well the last time, and I'm happy to have found you. When can you get it done?".

Maybe I'm just a sap, but words like this from what are essentially strangers actually restore some of my faith in humanity. Am I a great service technician? Absolutely not. I barely do any service at all, but I'm always honest when I get service calls and tell them that I can't guarantee anything. Some get upset and call someone else, which I'm totally okay with, but the ones that are willing to take a chance on a guy like me and trust me to do what's best for them rather than just sell them what's going to put the most money in my pocket, that means a lot to me.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ScottSecor & @GroundUp

Well said.

hot_rod

It’s not realistic for a small shop to offer free bud, especially detailed ones with heat loss and design included. It is hard to even justify driving to a potential customers location without at least covering the mileage cost. A few days worth of free quotes hits the bottom line quickly when you need 1800 billable hours a year to crack the nut.

Call it an energy audit instead of a bid so the customer sees the value.

Most all professions charge for estimates, even when you take the problem to their location. Doctors and attorneys are examples and we the tradespeople are as or more important to mankind.

Sizing replacements for hydronics has become much easier when you embrace options that can modulate from 150,000 down to 15,000 BTU/ hr, efficiently

EBEBRATT-Ed

My first job was with an oil company who had been in business 50 years when I started,

They had an office in Springfield, MA & Hartford, CT. I was based out of Springfield but did some Hartford work. The difference was striking.

Springfield seemed to be mostly steam and Hartford seemed mostly hot water including my first gravity system. I don't think I saw a gravity system in Springfield.

The majority of the residential quotes were to existing oil customers.

The customers in Springfield always haggled about the $$$. You would quote a job and loose it to a competitor or the owners brother-in-law knew a plumber.

Hartford was a completely different story. Most of the time (probably ) 80+% you quoted the job you got the job.

RollCNY

This forum is an interesting place, and I appreciate all the skilled contractors (and homeowners) who take time and weigh in.

I think it is a struggle to connect good customers to good contractors, and when they connect, positive experiences happen. It is the frustration on both sides when they don't that make things so difficult.

My current house is my first hot water boiler system, with baseboard fin tube in two long series loops. From observing input here that you guys take the time to give out for free, I have ended up with the most comfortable heating system I have ever had. And I know that because my wife tells me "I have no idea what you did, but this is the most comfortable heating system we have ever had." So it has to be true.

I made it comfortable by figuring out my heat loss, measuring my fin tube lengths, running a shockingly low delta T, and all kinds of stuff that would take someone who didn't live in my house hours and hours, and no one can afford to pay for that kind of time and attention, and no contractor can afford to give those kinds of hours.

In many of the the threads where someone asks about "most efficient system" I want to say figure out the most comfortable system, and prioritize that. The most efficient system would keep your house at 40°, and your toilets refilling would be space heaters. No one really wants that, but forests have trees in the way.

Jamie Hall

Just a minor comment, folks. Are we preaching to the choir? I can honestly say that I could look at any of the professional contractors who regularly comment on the Wall and, if someone asked me I would be able to say that they would do an honest job for an honest price, only so long as the job was in their usual line of work -- and that they would not do the job if it weren't. In other words, trust.

But let's be honest -- we are a self-selected and slightly odd bunch, no?

For what it's worth.

trivetman

And for all the griping about giving away information for free when you bid a job,  theres at least a dozen or more pros on this site who eagerly answer my DIY questions as unpaid consultants.  That takes time.

Mad Dog_2

I had a tire kicker 20 years ago on a Boiler install. Tirekicker: "What size boiler you givin' me?"  Me : "I guarantee to install the correct size boiler for you home.  I will take all the proper measurements and do the math."  Tirekicker: "OK, I need you to come do that!"  Me: "No problem, my design fee is X.  You can pay me for that or give me a 50% deposit." Tirekicker: " Thats bull...I never heard of this...I ain't paying you for an estimate!"  Me...'Good luck!"

Fast foward, next heating season.  They paid me for a consultation to diagnose underheated home. Boiler was two sizes too small!  Ha ha 😂 🤣 😆 😄 😅 The "reputable" local company in business since the 1940s, were not returning calls.  Mad Dog 🐕 

GW

@Jamie Hall that we are.

@trivetman yes the oddness really shines through when we say one thing out of one side of our mouth and do other things with the other side of our mouths; we are a fickle bunch of people- trying to earn people's respect in any way fathomable.

Teemok

With mod-con turn downs hitting the range of 15:1 sizing is less of a give away in my area. I know, we don't all like them for good reasons. Edit: Didn't see that hot rod just said as much above.
I regard this forum as an exchange place. The opportunity to request, learn and verify is far greater than what I might personally offer. Net benefit. Anything I offer is just a gift of mixed value, given out of respect for the space. There is the basic human reward of helping someone with no expectation of gain. I also love the physics, logic and history that make up our common mechanical language and somewhat esoteric knowledge. We share experiences in service, problem solving and design. Debate for me is both instructive and fun. It's great to have access to a community of smarter more experienced people who are willing to educate.
Business is a very different thing, with competition, boundaries and risks that tend to lead to isolation, defensive and profit seeking stances.

Teemok

@ScottSecor I have similar experiences. When I offer to explain details they indulged me for a bit and then stop me with the I implicitly trust you message. They don't want to know the details they want care. It's an honor to be trusted like that but the paper work and process must still be done. It's easy to slip into a too friendly a relationship where pit falls await.

realliveplumber

When someone asks me for a "breakdown" of the cost, I tell them that McDonalds will not tell you how much the components of a Big Mac cost.

As far as heat loss for an estimate, I only perform them after I am awarded the project. I can get pretty close to provide the "free estimate" without wasting a bunch of time.

SlamDunk

GroundUp said:

That equipment sizing thing is a huge pet peeve of mine because I spent an hour of my time figuring this out for them, and the vast majority of people I deal with are going to take that info somewhere cheaper. I understand why some people want to know, and we see it all the time here on HH that someone gets 3 estimates for the same boiler replacement but one boiler is 2.5x the size of another. Whether a customer or a contractor, who do you trust?

On a similar note, it always makes me giggle when people have no problem spending $20/sq ft on fancy flooring, but refuse to pay $6/sq ft for the heating system that keeps them warm for the next 30 years. It's truly baffling, to me.

The existing furnace is 126000btuh in on an 800 sqft house. I dont want to wait for the day of installation to find out he was installing the same size unit. I mean, 33 years ago, someone oversized the unit we have. My in laws trusted them.

And he was not there more than thirty minutes before giving me a price. If my heat loss calculation was the same as his, he could have agreed and not balk about warrantying it. I drew my own conclusion that his company was not the one.

What would be a good way to be sure I get what I need without asking? I still have to get ths done.

Paul Pollets

Interesting thread. I knew Frank Blau and worked for George Brazil. Both did work together and pioneered flat rate pricing for P&H or HVAC contractors. George had the largest shop in the country using over 600 cube vans. He was the ;largest buyer of Isuzu cube vans in the US.
They both agreed that less than 5% of contractors in our industry knew or understood the business of contracting or making a profit. That was 25 years ago. I'm unsure if it got better, I'd say it's the same. Now there's an extreme shortage of qualified, well trained mechanics. which they also predicted.

EBEBRATT-Ed

About 20 years ago they started talking about trades people shortage. It took a little longer than they predicted for the shortage but it's her with a vengeance now. Especially good mechanics.

I still go for Code updates for gas and electrical. Every class they discuss how many attendees are there with gray (or no) hair.

At one time they said the average age of the workforce was 56 years old (plumbers', HVAC electricians etc) that was about 10 years ago probably hire now.

KarlW

At the same time though, as a High School class of 2000 in Upstate NY, there were no trade jobs available for my cohort as baby boomers still held the jobs. Union halls were actively exclusionary unless you had an in.

It didn’t help that teachers were “college or bust”, but the pressure away from the trades was coming from both ends.

dko

KarlW said:

At the same time though, as a High School class of 2000 in Upstate NY, there were no trade jobs available for my cohort as baby boomers still held the jobs. Union halls were actively exclusionary unless you had an in.

It didn’t help that teachers were “college or bust”, but the pressure away from the trades was coming from both ends.

The local plumbing union in LIC, NY recruits every few years. People line up for blocks on end and set up tents. It's funny because they say it doesn't matter if you are #1 or #1000 in line and to stop lining up days in advance.. but they only give out 1,000 applications so you have to be the first 1,000 in line or you don't even get a chance to apply.

No shortage of people wanting to join the UA Local 1.

I have a seen a large influx of young new plumbers starting new companies. Posting their work on instagram and other social media. But most only want to work in Manhattan, that's where the big bucks are. They are making out 5 digits per job and "getting rich quick." So location location location. Manhattan is all about connections. Super will get you the job if you give him a little something on the side. Be good with a certain management group and you get to work on all the park ave buildings at exorbitant rates.

I have no idea why i'm typing all this.