Auto feed valves for steam boilers

chrisridd · January 14

Hi I am looking for opinions and expertise regarding placement of auto feed valves on steam boilers. I had a Crown Gas fired steam boiler that I was needing to manually fill multiple times per week. I hired a heating company to add an autofeed so that I didn’t have to do this. The company came out placed an autofeed an ran it. I was then called to my basement to see water pouring from the bottom of boiler and toldI have a cracked heat exchanger and my boiler was condemned, advised I need a replacement. Fast forward I replace the boiler and was told the autofeed placed on the”condemned “ boiler was the incorrect part. I was told that the autofeed was for a hot water tank not a steam boiler. The company that installed the new boiler advised that understanding that that’s a new part they could not put it on the new boiler, but if I was interested in an autofeed they could quote me out the correct part.

Several dilemmas:
Is the auto feed pictured the right part for a steam boiler?

Is it a good idea to have an autofeed on a steam boiler?
Was the first company negligent for placing the wrong part?
Can overfilling a boiler with an autofeed crack the heat exchanger?

clammy · January 18

A combo unit like you have pictured is for a hot water boiler unless you have high city water pressure most steam boiler feed lines only require a back flow preventer . If you are adding water every few days you have larger issues . A steam boiler should not require water every week if so you have a leak and it should be repaired . Looking at your pics your boiler looks to be piped in copper and from the looks of the solder joints I would suggest finding a installation company that knows steam being anyone who installs steam boiler installs them in steel pipe not copper . Those who do copper header are usually hacks and there price is often 1/2 of what a properly install boiler would be done by some one who knows exactly what and how it should be done to operate properly . Copper piping on steam is like wearing a tuxedo w sneakers to a wedding or wake it ain’t right . A auto feeder will only add water until your boiler is eaten away and you replace . Personally I do not install crown steam boilers I see them as a 10 to 15 year max but w this being said they are always installed like garbage never piped correctly nor cleaned maybe on a rare occasion being they are on the lowest price point of steam boiler and really don’t weigh much . On another note non of your boiler near boiler piping is even close to being correct that being said I high doubt the install could read English being every manafactures installation and operation manual has a clear and idiot proof picture and even a crappy near boiler piping kit for those who are completely handicapped and should not be installing boiler which from the pic is clearly your installer . If this was installed recently I personally would contact and demand proper piping that is unless this was a extreme budget job then you got what you paid for .
I see this stuff all the time unfortunately total repipe are never cheap usually just about as much as replacement . Sorry to say your system will never perform as well as it should being piped Ina manner which only throws wet steam into the system the results will be repeated main and radiator vent failure lack of real even heating ,grooving of the main from excessive condensate causing leaks at threaded joints or pin holes in sags in piping ,boiler cycling on low water cut off ,auto feed fixes that except now the boiler floods ,this is all a common issue that follows all poorly piped boilers the answer is open the wallet and pay a pro to repipe using both tapping in steel and flushing ,wanding and skimming the boiler oh yeah let’s not forget properly sizing after that then any real issue will and can be repaired instead of chasing ghosts when the ghost is right at the boiler ,poor near boiler practices and all the junk that goes w it when the wrong guys install steam boilers . Don’t feel sad it happens all the time you’re not alone . When a real steam pro looks at a job he usually wants to get it right and doesn’t want to waste his time or your money so they will usually up date and replace main and radiator vents included in the boiler replacement this is how it suppose to be done . Personally when I replace boiler I replace above mentioned when the ho states ll vents are new that’s fine but when complaints come in on poor heat in radiator I state you said vents where new so it’s not my issue and I will charge for the return visit and the vents being they wanted to save money and they did but comfort suffers . Real pros don’t waste time on penny pinchers ,I leave to go elsewhere so they can pinch the penny and be dollar foolish and find some else who time they will waste and chase more ghosts . I would say you did not get a real mech or some one w much steam boiler installation exp . Maybe a junior apprentice at best . Call and complain or find a real contractor is your best bet but fire those guys they suck !
The sweeten of a cheaper price is soon forgotten
after the bitterness of poor quality
Peace and good luck clammy

clammy · January 18

Ps auto feeder in my mind are never a good idea except when there flashing and that clearly usually means it time to replace your boiler . There really good at that I don’t recommend them I recommend going down your basement and checking your water level and getting to know your system . I usually tell customers that if you want something totally automatic and less hand on , then look to a different type of system like hot water or hot air usually big $ at that point the become more hands on or they bite the bullet and do hot air or hot water or just move to another home it happens . Just thought ide throw that out there being it’s one of the many things I ve seen in the field .
Peace and good luck clammy

Jamie Hall · January 18

There do exist autofeeders for steam boilers. They operate off the low water cutoff. The autofeeder your people supplied is totally wrong. Whether they were stupid or negligent it would be hard to say.

I doubt, however, that flooding the boiler -- which is what that part did for you --would have cracked it, unless it was very low on water when they opened the valve. Which, of course, it might have been. However, you do say you were adding water before that multiple times a week -- so you had some serious leaks before that anyway.

KC_Jones · January 18

Them installing that valve set up on a steam boiler is quite insane, and honestly you probably shouldn't be charged for their incompetency, but it was not the cause of any of the issues you had with the boiler. As far as the money goes, that's a battle you need to decide if your going to fight with them.

As stated above, a water feeder wasn't the issue, the leaks are. If you waited for actual low water to add water, and the system was properly tight, you shouldn't need to add water more than a couple times per season. I check and add water about once a month, but it's never actually hitting the low water cutoff.

All that said, I'd be curious to see the new installation you just got. I see the old one and it is piped quite wrong. Given the "quality" of the contractors you seem to have involved, I'd be worried they installed the new one incorrectly too.

minneapolisboilers · January 18

They should have piped your condensate return lines in to a boiler feed tank with a feedwater pump, that also has a make-up water float. If your system is losing that much water, it would allow the cold city water to mix with your hot condensate return water and not thermo-shock your boiler when pumping water back in (picture pouring cold water on a burning hot frying pan). You would also need an applicable LWCO that has a switch that calls for the pump to be turned on when the water is below normal water level like a MCDM s42, s67, or s150. https://www.sterlcosteam.com/product_category/boiler-feed-units/

KC_Jones · January 18

minneapolisboilers said:
They should have piped your condensate return lines in to a boiler feed tank with a feedwater pump, that also has a make-up water float. If your system is losing that much water, it would allow the cold city water to mix with your hot condensate return water and not thermo-shock your boiler when pumping water back in (picture pouring cold water on a burning hot frying pan). You would also need an applicable LWCO that has a switch that calls for the pump to be turned on when the water is below normal water level like a MCDM s42, s67, or s150. https://www.sterlcosteam.com/product_category/boiler-feed-units/

No, just no. Please do not do this. Actually completely disregard this post as the person doesn't know what they are talking about. Adding a feed tank to a gravity system shows a tremendous lack of knowledge. It's gravity return, it doesn't need a feed water tank, adding one is simply foolish, and that's being polite about it.

Also accepting excessive water usage is wrong. Find the leaks and fix them. Period.

EBEBRATT-Ed · January 18

@chrisridd

The company that installed the original 'water feed" were totally incompetant. They installed the wrong part and caused you to have to change your boiler.

CALL A Lawyer

Hap_Hazzard · January 18

It was a mistake to install an automatic feeder for the reason you did it. They are not for convenience. They are safety devices. If you're needing to fill a steam boiler more than a couple of times a month (I haven't needed to top mine up yet this season.), something's wrong and you need to fix it. Either there's a crack in the boiler or a leak in the system, and if there's a leak in the system, the fluctuations in the water level and the repeated additions of fresh water can damage the boiler. Water loss is a boiler crying for help. Installing a water feeder is like telling it to shut up.

The only good reason for installing a water feeder is to prevent a catastrophic water loss from destroying the boiler until you can get to it to fix it, but, in all honesty, the Hartford loop will prevent the boiler from dry firing. All the autofeeder adds is that it allows the boiler to keep providing heat in the meantime, but you still have to worry about where all the water is going and the damage it might be doing.

A water feeder with a counter can also alert to to a looming problem because it can maintain the water level while indicating that it's using excessive water to do so, so if you're not checking the counter every time you visit the boiler, you're courting disaster.

ethicalpaul · January 18

the Hartford loop will prevent the boiler from dry firing

No it won't, but the LWCO will

Hap_Hazzard · January 18

ethicalpaul said:
No it won't, but the LWCO will

Assuming it works.You know why you have to blow down mechanical LWCOs and what can happen if you don't.

ethicalpaul · January 18

Hap_Hazzard said:

ethicalpaul said:
No it won't, but the LWCO will
Assuming it works.You know why you have to blow down mechanical LWCOs and what can happen if you don't.

OK I'm sorry everyone to repeat myself on this, but it bothers me when incorrect things get entered into the record and may be seen by future readers.

The Hartford Loop may delay a dry fire event caused by a wet return leak (combined with a failure of the LWCO), but it's only a delay (like an hour or so maybe). When the water in the boiler all steams out, it will dry fire with the Hartford Loop looking on going "what did you expect me to do?"

chrisridd · January 20

@KC_Jones here is the new install. Would replacing main vent help with leak. what should be done to properly source a leak. Will a main vent help with return

chrisridd · January 20

@clammy thanks the Crown was here when I purchased. recently replaced with Penco following the whole part install and flododing of the Crown which was giving good heat through all the radiators, just adding water frequently. Never was able to find a leak. The new install pictured

chrisridd · January 20

Thanks everyone where could the leak be if I never see water? My main vent and piping is in the garage. Could cold pipes from the main vent cause issues? The initial Crown boiler was giving good heat, no leaks from radiators or anywhere visible to a homeowners eye, just the lower water and needing to fill. Also using a programmable thermostat that sometimes dipped back to default settings of 62 and comfortable for the family is 74. I am thinking from the conversation, the book recommended on this site, and a retired family member who did HVAC that there is a leak in the system or poor return, as I am adding water though not as often to the new boiler, pics attached. It is worth mentioning that the Crown was installed in 2005 and was functioning and providing heat throughout all radiators until the morning of the part being installed and turned on.

I am starting to wonder if the Crown was really done , heat exchanger actually cracked or did the negligent installer of the autofeed just get scared and misdiagnosed.

.

neilc · January 21

is that your leak at the far side of these pictures? by the domestic tank?

the Ptrol looks to be set too high, dial down that pressure, and set the differential wheel under the cover to 1,

guessing no skimming has occurred as the far side looks like bad access, and the port on this side looks untouched,
post a picture of that far side of the boiler where I think I see wet floor,

Jamie Hall · January 21

If you are still adding water, replacing the boiler didn't fix the leak. Sorry about that. Not saying the old one wasn't done -- it may have been, but clearly you still have a problem.

Lots of possibilities. Leaking valve packing. Vents not closing all the way. Leaks in a wet return. Even the rare leak in a steam pipe or dry return. You may never really see it. And remember that one drip every ten seconds is a gallon per day...

chrisridd · January 21

@neilc I think that is a stain of sorts because it’s slightly visible in the pictures of my old boiler. I have attached pics of the other side.

chrisridd · January 21

@neilc I also wondered about the pressure. My contractor believes issues maybe resolved with. A new main vent. I can hear what sounds like water in radiators when the unit cycled on. Also the radiator in the kitchen and bathroom are smaller baseboard radiators while the remaining of house has the standard radiators. The kitchen and bathroom often sounds like tea kettles when cranking the heat pass 72.

neilc · January 21

yeah, the Ptrol is set too high, it's almost 1/2 way up that scale, dial it down to under the 0.5 with the screw on the top, and check that differential wheel,

what do you see on the boiler gage when it's been firing and the vents are hissing?

neilc · January 21

that's your skim port on the left side,
good luck getting a bucket under that,
before things get seized in place I would add a nipple and cap to the right side,

is that domestic safety valve dripping?

chrisridd · January 21

@neilc

Picture of gauge while hissing

Neild5 · January 22

neilc said:

that's your skim port on the left side, good luck getting a bucket under that, before things get seized in place I would add a nipple and cap to the right side, is that domestic safety valve dripping?

At least the floor drain is close.

109A_5 · January 22

Hello @chrisridd,
Looks like the safety T&P valve on the water heater tank has been leaking for a while. You can easily see the difference in the wet spot.

chrisridd · February 2

Update I found the leak or shall I say it showed itself dripping from my kitchen ceiling which is right beneath the radiator in my back bed room. haven’t opened the ceiling yet to seethe full scope of the issue, but interestingly enough the leak stopped and hasn’t started back up yet and I am still running heat. Trying to decide who what and when to open the ceiling since kitchen was recently updated. kinda want someone that is good with plumbing and drywall. Some pictures for reference

@Neild5 @clammy @Jamie Hall @ethicalpaul @109A_5

Jamie Hall · February 2

That's tiresome. The drywall shouldn't be that much of a hassle, though getting it so that the joints are invisible may take some effort. I'd be thinking that unless the leak in the radiator is obvious, though -- between sections, or the valve or the union, you may be looking at a drip from a rusted through threaded pipe joint. That may take some real ingenuity to repair, though it can be done since steam runs at very low pressure. Let us know what you find...

109A_5 · February 2

Hello @chrisridd,
How does the wood floor look under the other end of the radiator ?

chrisridd · February 18

@Jamie Hall the leak is at the union on the radiator. Haven’t repaired it yet but placed a crafted water catcher under it and no more water coming through the dry wall. The system still too loud for my liking but will look at things after the heating season.

Jamie Hall · February 18

Leaks at a union are usually not hard to fix. No parts required -- unless someone was a gorilla and tightened the nut to much and cracked it.

Auto feed valves for steam boilers

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