Oil Boiler to Gas conversion - is my math around savings right?

n247hp

Hi All and Happy New Year!

I have a Peerless WBV-04-150-W Oil boiler that is heating fin tube radiators in ~4500 sqft home + DWH (on demand). We moved in about a year ago and I have been searching for ways to reduce heating cost. The house is a cap cod and we got spray foam insulation done for the entire roof line which got us ~ 25% savings in heating + the home keeps warmer and heats up much faster. Last winter I was burning over 8 gallons a day and keeping thermostat at 68-69 and now I am doing around 6 gallons and thermostats are all at 70. This is all with outdoor temps staying in the 30s to low 40s.

Our neighborhood has natural gas line and I have been wondering if the Oil conversion makes sense. In the process of getting pricing from PECO.

The peerless boiler is from 2019 so I think its in a very good shape still and after doing a lot of reading on this forum I don't think I want to go con/mod system. I have spoken to Carlin and was told that 99034FR2 is the gas conversion gun that is approved by peerless, so I started doing some math below. Do my numbers make sense?

I estimate that I burn 1,500 gallon per year. We live in PA, suburbs of Philadelphia.

So my math is 1,500 X ~139,000 BTUs for annual oil usage = 215,000,000 total BTUs needed for heat and water.
To get the same out of oil @ ~103,000 BTUs /CCF, I need to burn ~2,100 units of Oil. I am also adding 25% for efficiency loss and just being conservative that conversion will have energy loss from original oil setup.

It looks like I can save around $2,000 with the conversion as the cost of Gas is around 65% less than the price of oil.

EdTheHeaterMan

NEVERMIND...
Please take a moment to get familiar with the rules. by clicking on the link at the top of the page



You will need to remove the fuel prices for your oil dealer. We all know about how much oil is in our areas of trade and can still help you answer your questions

To edit click on the three dots ... at the top of YOUR post.

ethicalpaul

I don't think fuel prices are a concern of the rules, Ed. They are a commodity price that is readily available everywhere.

Prices of project work are, like if he said "my installer says he can convert me to gas for $xxxx"

EdTheHeaterMan

regarding the calculation you posted. When you state that you use 1500 gallons, that takws into account the fact that your existing oil boiler is not using all the 139,000 BTU per gallon as usable heat. The efficiency of your boiler and the efficiency of the distribution system will account for some energy loss between the flame and the room temperature.

Since your replacement boiler will use the same piping and radiator system to distribute the heat to your rooms, we can forget about that loss, because it will be about the same unless you select a gas boiler that will modulate the water temperature based on the outdoor temperature. That is called OutDoor Reset. If the pipes are using cooler water during the spring and fall months when the weather is mild, then the system distribution loss will also be less.

So comparing an 84% efficient oil boiler to a 84% efficient gas boiler, your BTU losses will be about the same out the vent and thru the piping and distribution system.

I would double check the actual cost of making the change which can be anywhere from a couple thousand for swapping the oil burner with a gas burner and using the same peerless boiler. to over 5 figures for a boiler that will create the ODR for maximum savings on fuel.

Things to consider are the fact that the Peerless you currently have will most likely last you over 25 years with annual maintenance and maybe even 35 or more. So the cost of staying with oil will not include new equipment for a long time.

the cost of a new boiler plus the slightly lower cost of fuel today that may be higher in future years. Oil prices kind of stay in step with gas prices, it is just that oil prices change sooner than gas prices because Big Oil companies (Not Your Dealer) do not need to go thru the public utility commission to get a rate increase. But eventually the gas price catches up. and that happens in both directions, up and down.

If you elect the higher priced Modulating Condensing boilers (ModCon) that get efficiencies over 94%, just know that they will last on average 15 years. so you will need to ModCons for every one Cast Iron boiler. so count that in your math.

If there is a second issue that might be a problem with Fuel Oil, that would be the fuel tank. What condition is the tank in? In the basement and replaces when the boiler was installed? Then I would stick with oil heat. if the tank is 30 years old or more buried in the ground. That would be a factor worth switching to gas

Hope this helps in your making simple math turn into trigonometry. At least it is not Rocket Surgery!

n247hp

I am not sure when the oil tank was replaced but it is above ground and is in the garage. It looks fairly new I think

Hot_water_fan

You've got the conversions right:

$/MMBTU oil: $/gallon * 1,000,000/138,500 * (1/COP)
$/MMBTU gas: $/therm* 1,000,000/100,000 * (1/COP)

so 1500 gallons = 1500*138500/1000 = ~2080 therms.

Some additional thoughts to consider: First, what's your monthly gas fee? Mine's about $17/month, so $204/year. In my experience, this number never decreases.

Gas utilities usually split their costs between volumetric and fixed monthly fees, and each one does it differently. Volumetric is often then further split: most generally, it's for the gas itself (the molecules) and then shipping and handling. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples!

EdTheHeaterMan

ethicalpaul said:

I don't think fuel prices are a concern of the rules, Ed. They are a commodity price that is readily available everywhere.

Prices of project work are, like if he said "my installer says he can convert me to gas for $xxxx"

Margins on retail fuel delivery prices are set by the individual fuel dealer. That price can be the subject of "price fixing which is illegal'' after the refiners sell to the jobber. So I would refer this to the ultimate Authority Having Jurisdiction in this case. The Exalted, All Knowing, and ever graceful @Erin Holohan Haskell (I watched the Wizard or Oz over the holidays)

Hot_water_fan

Ha as the gasoline station flashes their price to the other gas station directly next door...

dko

I'd think that's the same as linking any item from the internet like supplyhouse.com. They also have a markup..

Retail fuel delivery prices are also public, at least enough of them you can compare.
https://www.codfuel.com/fuel/Main/OilPrices.aspx

n247hp

Hot_water_fan said:

You've got the conversions right:

$/MMBTU oil: $/gallon * 1,000,000/138,500 * (1/COP)
$/MMBTU gas: $/therm* 1,000,000/100,000 * (1/COP)

so 1500 gallons = 1500*138500/1000 = ~2080 therms.

Some additional thoughts to consider: First, what's your monthly gas fee? Mine's about $17/month, so $204/year. In my experience, this number never decreases.

Gas utilities usually split their costs between volumetric and fixed monthly fees, and each one does it differently. Volumetric is often then further split: most generally, it's for the gas itself (the molecules) and then shipping and handling. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples!

I used a family members bill, who live in the same county and the fixed cost was $14 dollars. I took the average cost per CCF from that bill with all the gas, delivery, and fixed cost included and without posting actual dollars, natural gas is 3 times less than Oil right now.

I dont have all the pricing from the gas company, but it seems like the ROI could be 2-3 years. Plus the benefit of not having to prebuy oil, monitor the fill-ups... etc.

Hot_water_fan

@n247hp great!

WMno57

@EdTheHeaterMan , please don't view this as an attack on you. I really think @Erin Holohan Haskell needs to more clearly define her "No Discussion of Pricing" rule.
The following is my opinion:
If anything, prohibiting discussion of price on commodity items leads to price fixing. We are not talking about labor, design services, or intellectual property here. It's a gallon of oil. How can we have an intelligent conversion about Oil v Gas without including local prices?
Erin, HeatingHelp is your private property. There is no First Amendment issue here. Legally you can limit speech on your forum any way you like. However, over restriction on this issue may lead to lack of growth of your site.
www.gasbuddy.com has the prices for every gas station. Locally, I can buy diesel for $3.66 (includes road taxes. So what? Did I hurt some mom and pop gas station by posting that? Maybe mom&pop have cleaner restrooms and that is worth a premium to their customers.
OIl is fungible.
https://www.strausscenter.org/energy-and-security-project/fungibility-oil/

WMno57

11:30 AM EST 1/2/24
Wholesale spot price for Heating Oil is $2.55 a gallon (135,000 BTUs).
Wholesale spot price for Natural Gas is also $2.55 (One Million BTUs).
BTU for BTU, oil is 7 1/2 times as expensive as natural gas.
Both oil and gas have transportation and distribution costs. So retail prices are higher for both.
https://finviz.com/futures.ashx

DanHolohan

I don’t see any problem with discussing the price of a fuel. The site rule was started because they were talking about what should it cost to install this boiler or that radiant system. That’s not a fair question because it varies from location to location. It’s a very good rule to have, but the price of a commodity, such as oil or gas is readily available on the Internet.

Robert O'Brien

WMno57 said:

11:30 AM EST 1/2/24
Wholesale spot price for Heating Oil is $2.55 a gallon (135,000 BTUs).
Wholesale spot price for Natural Gas is also $2.55 (One Million BTUs).
BTU for BTU, oil is 7 1/2 times as expensive as natural gas.
Both oil and gas have transportation and distribution costs. So retail prices are higher for both.
https://finviz.com/futures.ashx

The delivery cost is much higher with NG, locally about 8X the commodity cost.

EdTheHeaterMan

I like to look at the amount that went through the meter and the dollars paid for that much stuff. On the oil truck the price per gallon is usually the bottom line without added costs like transportation, delivery, storage, and other infrastructure costs. Thay are all included in the fuel dealer margin.

The Gas Companies and other utilities have a different rate plus this item plus that item, but there is a bottom line. What they want you to pay in dollars and cents is at the bottom of the list of stuff. So if you take the meter reading before and the meter reading after and subtract the difference you get the amount of gas used. I like to think of it in simple terms, I paid $47.56 cents for the amount of gas that went through the meter this month. If I look at the entire year and add up all the cubic feet used and look at the total money spent, that will be more accurate accounting for the actual cost of fuel because it will have the fixed costs for 12 months plus the actual metered amount of fuel for the entire year. If I want to show someone how expensive natural gas can be, I use their June gas bill, because there is little heating going on in May and June, but the fixed costs are still there. So the price per therm looks much higher.

You need to look at the bottom line for each situation. A year of fuel oil and a year of natural gas and see for yourself.

And Thanks Dan for clarifying the No Pricing policy, I can see the point of comparing fuel costs to help determine if a $10,000.00+ new boiler is worth scrapping a perfectly good existing boiler in order to swap fuels. It is helpful to be able to see that “on paper” so to say

I just know that there have been some situations in my career where one person swapped fuel from oil to gas and cut their operating cost by over half. I have also seen where someone was expecting the same type of savings but has a similar annual operating cost, from swapping fuels, so there was no payback.

Just want folks to go in with their eyes open

Erin Holohan Haskell

DanHolohan said:

I don’t see any problem with discussing the price of a fuel. The site rule was started because they were talking about what should it cost to install this boiler or that radiant system. That’s not a fair question because it varies from location to location. It’s a very good rule to have, but the price of a commodity, such as oil or gas is readily available on the Internet.

Yes. Thank you!

hot_rod

DanHolohan said:

I don’t see any problem with discussing the price of a fuel. The site rule was started because they were talking about what should it cost to install this boiler or that radiant system. That’s not a fair question because it varies from location to location. It’s a very good rule to have, but the price of a commodity, such as oil or gas is readily available on the Internet.

Same applies for published prices on products, I assume?

Erin Holohan Haskell

hot_rod said:

DanHolohan said:

I don’t see any problem with discussing the price of a fuel. The site rule was started because they were talking about what should it cost to install this boiler or that radiant system. That’s not a fair question because it varies from location to location. It’s a very good rule to have, but the price of a commodity, such as oil or gas is readily available on the Internet.

Same applies for published prices on products, I assume?

Yes, correct. Thanks!

n247hp

Thanks everyone for the insight. Whats the best way to find a contractor that specialize in these type conversions and know the process and what to look for? I am 30 min North of Philadelphia.
Can I ask for recommendations here?

Jamie Hall

n247hp said:

Thanks everyone for the insight. Whats the best way to find a contractor that specialize in these type conversions and know the process and what to look for? I am 30 min North of Philadelphia.
Can I ask for recommendations here?

You surely may. There is a tab somewhere up top which says "find a contractor" and that may produce someone in your area. I have a notion that sending a PM to @STEVEusaPA might also produce a recommendation, if he himself (good man) doesn't serve your area.