New Gorton Stuck Vent, Investigative Surgery

ethicalpaul

About a year ago I received a Gorton #4 from Supplyhouse.com that arrived stuck closed. I'm finally posting the video about what I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiNiu5EXMm0

Then in this much shorter video, I find out if Gorton vents really would block water from leaving the vent, as we have heard people mention so many times:

https://youtu.be/XXevhGi02q4

Ironman

I just put two Gorton #2’s on a job and both are stuck shut. They came from SupplyHouse.

I wonder what’s going on?

ethicalpaul

Were yours recently purchased? About a year ago a few people saw this but I haven't seen anything about it in some months. Mine seemed like it was thrown or dropped. Supplyhouse sent another one that was fine.

Waher

I had a vertical No.4 shipped to me in the past month which works, but was covered in the same weird green oxidation and when I washed it out with tap water a lot of green particulates came out of it. No idea what it was.

Mad Dog_2

Good work Paul...Bad outta the box go right back from whence they came or the mongo pail..mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

Waher said:

I had a vertical No.4 shipped to me in the past month which works, but was covered in the same weird green oxidation and when I washed it out with tap water a lot of green particulates came out of it. No idea what it was.

Was the oxidation on the outside on the chrome, or was it on the inside on the copper?

Waher

Dust on the exterior finish, some in the sealed bag, and when I washed the vent it came out in chunks like the green pumice type paste dentists use to clean your teeth.

JUGHNE

FWIW:

I have put B&J Big Mouth and G-2's on the same venting tree.

The BJBM will drip occasionally as they have no float inside.

The G-2's next to it would not drip.

I did get a few G-2's some years ago that did not rattle, float was stuck.
Returned for replacement.

A good G2 will rattle and when held up you can blow thru, turn upside down and the float closes the opening tight.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

FWIW:

I have put B&J Big Mouth and G-2's on the same venting tree.

The BJBM will drip occasionally as they have no float inside.

The G-2's next to it would not drip.

I did get a few G-2's some years ago that did not rattle, float was stuck.
Returned for replacement.

A good G2 will rattle and when held up you can blow thru, turn upside down and the float closes the opening tight.

The float doesn't stop a vent from dripping, it's allegedly for if the system fills with water. If it's just dripping it's from condensate in it and a B&J by design is more likely to drip. I don't recall if you can, but if you mount it with the outlet upwards I'm betting it won't drip. I had mine mounted vertically with the "vent" sideways and the inlet at the bottom.

ChrisJ

I decided to do some digging out of curiosity.

I see no mention of a float, or device to shut the valve in case of flooding mentioned in the patents.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2494293A/en

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2709550A/en?oq=US2709550

I don't think that was ever intended as a float at all.

Ironman

ethicalpaul said:

Were yours recently purchased? About a year ago a few people saw this but I haven't seen anything about it in some months. Mine seemed like it was thrown or dropped. Supplyhouse sent another one that was fine.

Yes recently, about 2-3 weeks ago.

Ironman

Can someone get Gorton to confirm where the vents are being made?

dko

If you call them and ask, they say it's made right there at Cranford, NJ.

I'm sure they can be manufactured in mass with very few people with the process down pat and custom tailored machinery. I find it hard to believe they would outright lie about it so I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I just find it odd a manufacturer with such a long history has zero photos of anyone ever making the valve. No photos of any manufacturing facility, no tours. No addresses stating it is the manufacturing facility. Maybe it's nothing fancy.. but there's literally nothing remotely close. Even on their website, all the photos are just of the old building and inside an office.

Usually American manufacturers are proud and proudly display it and mark it. They have no qualms showing their processes. I highly doubt air valves would have a secret process that can't be released to the public. I understand it's not required by law to label "Made in USA," but I don't understand why you wouldn't and then make it so you have to go out of your way to find out. All I can think is that while they are made here in USA, they aren't proud of the way they make it. But that's all conjecture and shouldn't go beyond that without evidence.

American made products need not be stamped "Made in USA." Marking country of origin is only required for anything coming in through customs.

I also have tested the gorton valve float with water before. It's not written anywhere the float design was to rise with incoming water (it does not), but I did hear many say so.

Steamhead

dko said:

If you call them and ask, they say it's made right there at Cranford, NJ.

I'm sure they can be manufactured in mass with very few people with the process down pat and custom tailored machinery. I find it hard to believe they would outright lie about it so I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I just find it odd a manufacturer with such a long history has zero photos of anyone ever making the valve. No photos of any manufacturing facility, no tours. No addresses stating it is the manufacturing facility. Maybe it's nothing fancy.. But there's literally nothing remotely close. Even on their website, all the photos are just of the old building and inside an office.

Usually American manufacturers are proud and proudly display it and mark it. They have no qualms showing their processes. I highly doubt air valves would have a secret process that can't be released to the public. I understand it's not required by law to label "Made in USA," but I don't understand why you wouldn't and then make it so you have to go out of your way to find out. All I can think is that while they are made here in USA, they aren't proud of the way they make it. But that's all conjecture and shouldn't go beyond that without evidence.

American made products need not be stamped "Made in USA." Marking country of origin is only required for anything coming in through customs.

I also have tested the gorton valve float with water before. It's not written anywhere the float design was to rise with incoming water, but I did hear many say so.

That's correct, they are made in Cranford. I visited their headquarters some years ago.

We've had a couple #2 vents that were stuck like that. From what I understand they were damaged in shipment. Gorton will replace them when asked.

The green stuff is probably flux from soldering that wasn't cleaned out. Does it interfere with the vents' operation?

ethicalpaul

So the "bell" (we can no longer call it a "float") is designed to prevent the displacement of the part from a drop or shock. It doesn't







How Gorton ever got a patent when the Jacobus (Maid O Mist) one was clearly the same design first, is beyond me. Patents are flawed for sure.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1547652A/en

Waher

The green stuff is probably flux from soldering that wasn't cleaned out. Does it interfere with the vents' operation?

Wouldn't flux like that eventually make its way out of the vent either into the air (bad if toxic or if it clogged the outlet) or drain out with condensate (also not great into the boiler)?

When I first noticed the green stuff I was fortunate enough to be wearing rubber gloves and washed out the vent thoroughly before using it.

ethicalpaul

I don’t think it’s that toxic…it’s in every copper water pipe

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

So the "bell" (we can no longer call it a "float") is designed to prevent the displacement of the part from a drop or shock. It doesn't How Gorton ever got a patent when the Jacobus (Maid O Mist) one was clearly the same design first, is beyond me. Patents are flawed for sure. https://patents.google.com/patent/US1547652A/en

Maybe it helps protect it better than if it wasn't there.

They're made to be installed on radiators in houses not bolted to the fender of a 6x6 going into war.

ethicalpaul

They're made to be installed on radiators in houses not bolted to the fender of a 6x6 going into war.

Oh I know, and this is why I remain confused as to just what kind of punishment they are getting that is making so many of them get jarred out of position!

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

They're made to be installed on radiators in houses not bolted to the fender of a 6x6 going into war.

Oh I know, and this is why I remain confused as to just what kind of punishment they are getting that is making so many of them get jarred out of position!

Have you ever watched package handlers? Here's a particularly bad example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

109A_5

ethicalpaul said:

How Gorton ever got a patent when the Jacobus (Maid O Mist) one was clearly the same design first, is beyond me. Patents are flawed for sure.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1547652A/en

Patents often only last 20 years...

Jacobus Edward 1923-11-08
Joseph A Gorton 1946-09-17

A 'Bell' full of air may lift if the surrounding chamber fills with water, if it can overcome gravity (its own weight) and other mechanical resistance, if any.

In general I would think a 'Float' would float in any position.

ethicalpaul

They last 17 years, but just because a patent expires doesn't mean you can make another one for an identical invention (which this is)

MoM's "float" is solid plastic and doesn't float.

Gorton's "bell" is copper and weighs more than the water it displaces (watch my shorter video above)

BobC

In 2011 I installed Hoffman 1A's on my system and found some of them worked initially but then stopped venting. When I took the vent odd the offending radiator I found a large drop of water on the vents tongue, the vent seemed fine otherwise with a free floating float. I suspected that drop was blocking the vent which never sees more than 10-12 oz of pressure
My local neighborhood hardware store, which is still there, stocked MOM so I picked up a couple of #5's and those worked fine. I later found one of Heating Helps membersd had seen the same problem with the Hoffman's. The common thread between our systems were the 10-12 ft horizontal runouts from the short boiler header running arounf the central chmney to yje vertical pipes going up the walls. I suspect 2" pipe was more expensive than 1-1/4 steel pipe so they kept the main just as short as they could, all my horizontal runouts are 12 ft long and don't don't have a lot of slope on them.
The net net out of all this is I replaced all my Hoffman's with MOM vents in 2012 and have not looked back. They are all still in place and work just fine. I am surprised Gorton never adopted the interchangeable orifice, they obviously copied the vent from Jacobus in the first place.
Bob

Steamhead

The main difference between the Gorton patent and the original Jacobus patent, also the vents we see here, is the way the free end of the bimetal strip is terminated.

Look closely at the diagram on the Gorton patent. The end of the strip rests against the casing of the vent, thereby keeping the strip from bouncing downward and allowing the float pin to disengage. But the end of the strip in the vents shown is just hanging there.

This is a production problem. I'll call Gorton next week and make them aware of it.

dko

Steamhead said:

Look closely at the diagram on the Gorton patent. The end of the strip rests against the casing of the vent, thereby keeping the strip from bouncing downward and allowing the float pin to disengage. But the end of the strip in the vents shown is just hanging there.

They had one filed in 1946 and then another in 1951 linked above
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2709550A/en?oq=US2709550

In their later filing, the end of the strip doesn't rest on anything and the excerpt about protection against shock/blows removed.

109A_5

So change the bimetal strip a bit back and forth over the years and get a new patent.

Nice job @ethicalpaul, the Diving Bell sinks, who would have thought. Mythbusters would be proud.

ethicalpaul

Thanks @109A_5, but to be fair to Gorton, it does seem like they never claim it is a float--but people seem to call it that and do their work for them

oops I take it back, they do call it a float:




They also call their strip "non-corrosive" even though the new one I opened up was already corroded

I still think they make a good product, no disrespect, Mr. Gorton!

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

Thanks @109A_5, but to be fair to Gorton, it does seem like they never claim it is a float--but people seem to call it that and do their work for them

oops I take it back, they do call it a float:




They also call their strip "non-corrosive" even though the new one I opened up was already corroded

I still think they make a good product, no disrespect, Mr. Gorton!

This illustration shows a tab on the end of the bimetal strip that bottoms on the housing. Same basic thing.

ethicalpaul

That's not how they ship them today though. No tab. Corrosion included free

dko

I think i've only seen the bent tab at the end of the strip on the gorton #2.

ChrisJ

I really don't like being told something that will corrode, won't.   And that it has a float to do a job it can't.


I also don't like vacuum cleaner companies telling me a fractional hp motor is 6 hp. 


Do I really care that it doesn't really have a usable float?  No, not even a little bit. But that's not the point.

To be fair though, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if no one at MOM or Gorton know the floats don't work.

Waher

BobC said:

I am surprised Gorton never adopted the interchangeable orifice, they obviously copied the vent from Jacobus in the first place.
Bob

https://www.maidmist.com/spec-sheets/jacobus-adjustable.pdf
Maid O'Mist recently came out with a knob adjustable orifice (similar idea to the Vent-Rite #11 or Hoffman 1A, but with a much wider adjustment range) as an alternative to their existing line of interchangeable orifices.

109A_5

Hello @ethicalpaul,
Looking at the 'Bell' in yours and then the one in the advertisement picture and imagining the possible size of it in a Gorton #2 maybe some would float and over time the 'Bell' got smaller (production costs or a young engineer that did not perform the due diligence) and it lost the float feature in some cases.

I wonder if the other brands that have the sealed chamber that expands with alcohol inside float or if they are also too heavy. I know the all metal float in my M&M 67 floats enough to do that job, but it is much bigger than a radiator vent valve.

"They also call their strip "non-corrosive" even though the new one I opened up was already corroded"
I wonder if that means the strip won't corrode other parts of the system. Not that it is not subject to corrosion its self.

If the corrosion issue seen is from flux residue they should have a production method to flush it out, but maybe that went by the wayside for production cost reasons.

ethicalpaul

109A_5 said:

I wonder if that means the strip won't corrode other parts of the system. Not that it is not subject to corrosion its self.

So the bimetallic strip is a sacrificial anode for the rest of the system?

109A_5

ethicalpaul said:

109A_5 said:

I wonder if that means the strip won't corrode other parts of the system. Not that it is not subject to corrosion its self.

So the bimetallic strip is a sacrificial anode for the rest of the system?

That would be interesting.

reggi

Here's some cutaways from bulletins from '33 to '47 +/- ... 

Steamhead

Steamhead said:

The main difference between the Gorton patent and the original Jacobus patent, also the vents we see here, is the way the free end of the bimetal strip is terminated.

Look closely at the diagram on the Gorton patent. The end of the strip rests against the casing of the vent, thereby keeping the strip from bouncing downward and allowing the float pin to disengage. But the end of the strip in the vents shown is just hanging there.

This is a production problem. I'll call Gorton next week and make them aware of it.

Message delivered. They're on it.

ethicalpaul

Well this was a year ago (in my case), and since they produce them, reportedly, in Cranford NJ, surely they already knew what was inside them

EBEBRATT-Ed

Why in some pictures do they have the extra clip inside and some do not?

Probably made in Cranford, China.

ethicalpaul

These are technical drawings/photos from brochures that are now decades old, who knows what production changes might have occurred over all these years

EBEBRATT-Ed

"What's this for? Oh, we don't need that part anymore!