Looking for Opinions on State Hybrid Electric Heat Pump Water Heaters

sundrown

Hi, I'm looking to replace the aging gas tank water heaters in my apartment building with hybrid electric heat pump water heaters. I'm in Detroit and most of the plumbing/HVAC suppliers around here haven't sold many yet so they don't have a lot of experience with them to draw from. I'm hoping some people on have used them and give some insight.

For context, the apartment building is 100 years old (guess that doesn't really matter), with (4) 700sf single bedroom apartment units. There is also a water heater dedicated to the laundry area with a new washing machine, drier with steam, laundry tub, and mop sink. The water heaters will be located in a 1,400sf basement so they have plenty to air volume for heat exchange. We're switching to electric hot water to take advantage of tax credits, utility rebates, and meet sustainability goals. Also, all the other appliances/HVAC components are electric. If I get rid of gas at the water heaters, then I can seal off the chimney's that now serve only to vent them and remove all other traces of gas piping, meters, etc in the building.

The plumbers we have been using don't like Rheem. One of the bigger local suppliers recommended the PREMIER AL SMART HYBRID ELECTRIC HEAT PUMP 50-GALLON WATER HEATER HPSX-50-DHPT from State Water Heaters. From what I've found, State is the commercial line of A.O Smith. This model is from their updated line that was released in fall of 2022. State Does anyone have experience with these? How is the quality and function? Thanks in advance.

ethicalpaul

Why don't they like Rheem I wonder. Is it one of those superstition things or are there real reasons? I have the Rheem, it works great. The technology is sound and not really new or cutting edge--it's basically a dehumidifier with a circulator and tank strapped onto it.

Intplm.

@sundrown

Not too sure why they do not like state water heaters. You might want to ask them.
I will say that a company I have often used and have been very happy with is Bradford White.
They are worth a look.
Before you decide as to what brand to have installed, Check all of the options that the hybrid offers.
Bradford White has a type of cold weather mode that is a functional choice, or selection used when operating the water heater that might be a good idea for use in your area.

WMno57

Go to Menards and get 4 40g tank electric resistance water heaters. When the meter spinner water heaters wear out, heat pump water heaters will be more of a mature technology and the market will have coalesced around a handful of decent products.
Right now you are paying a large premium to be a pioneer and take on all the risk. Both upfront, and with future repair costs. You are a business (landlord). Why take on unnecessary risk?

sundrown

@ethicalpaul - They said that they've had issues with the quality of Rheem's water heaters. Not specifically the heat pump models, just the water heaters in general.

@Intplm. - The contractor likes State and A.O.Smith. They don't like Rheem. The State unit that the supplier recommended is a hybrid similar with a supplemental resistance coil similar to the Bradford White cold weather mode that you mentioned. Even though the water heaters will be in a conditioned basement, I'm still glad to have the piece of mind that the hybrid systems offer.

Jamie Hall

We've said it before, and it's applicable in spades here: go with what your contractor likes. Why? Because they are going to need service.. Unlike straight gas or oil or electric, these are complicated computer controlled machines, and they will need TLC from time to time.

GGross

I'm also in Michigan. Not sure how it is right now, but a few years ago I was able to sell the heat pump water heaters with an instant rebate that brought the cost down to a little over the equivalent standard electric, and then certain power companies were offering an additional $1200 rebate on top of that (end user had to apply for this one). If you have commercial accounts for your utilities you may also qualify for additional rebates, check very carefully to make sure you maximize these. I would say offhand a good install with the heat pump units will work just fine, if the heat pump breaks generally there is backup electric resistance heating that can takeover, if you can get the cost close to that of standard electric units I see no downside whatsoever. I would also add that the manufacturer reps for both State and Rheem in Michigan are good people, I would imagine they would be willing to chat with you about any concerns

psb75

Get a Bradford White heat pump water heater. It is a MI company. They bought out GE GeoSpring. They have good tech support. I have installed quite a few of these--50, 65, and 80 gallon.

RIRED

dont get a hybrid heat pump water heater Im on my second one first one failed compressor went replacement less than two years old and same error cobe popped up on display meaning this one is bad too. Please stay away from these nothing but trouble~!

psb75

@RIRED It would be helpful to readers on this forum if you mentioned the brand you have used. We are all
trying to "track" which brands/companies may be better than others.

dko

If avoiding AO Smith for whatever your reasons are, all the below brands offer identical units. Just different stickers under their respective brand names.

• AO Smith Water Heaters
  
• American Water Heaters
  
• Reliance Water Heaters
  
• State Water Heaters
  
• John Wood Water Heaters
  
• U.S. Craftmaster Water Heaters
  
• Takagi (Tankless)
  
• Lochinvar (Storage Tanks)
  

yellowdog

We do not have any issues using Rheem Prestige Proterra HPWH's.

EBEBRATT-Ed

New technology. I would not install one until they are proven.

Besides whom is going to install and service it?

Yeah, any plumber can install it.

But what your buying is an expensive refrigeration system with electronic controls that most plumbers will not have a clue how to fix it. They can hook up the water and you will need an electrician to wire it. My fear is that they will become throw aways like a window air conditioner or a refrigerator....not worth fixing. Is the average homeowner or building owner going to buy a recovery machine and a vacuum pump and gauges to replace a compressor or some other part at $1500 for the tools? NOPE. Or hire an ac guy with no experience with these water heaters to spend hours working on it? Nope A compressor change will cost more that the WH is worth.

People are sinking thousands into electric cars without enough charging stations and cars that won't charge in cold weather and an aging electrical grid that can't support the chargers. In addition, there is the replacement battery cost which in some cases is more than the car is worth.

New technology is great when it works. Who wants to be the guinea pig?

It needs more time to work out.

Remember the Blue Ray boilers and furnaces in the 80's. Oil was going to burn blue and save all kinds of money. They worked fine in a lab but not in the field.

In 5 years they were in the scrap yard

Needs more time JMHO

RIRED

AO Smith ie State water heaters are one in the same units and that is the brand I had and am having problems with . Also agree with other posts that this heat pump hot water technology is new and these heaters have issues!

pecmsg

RIRED said:

AO Smith ie State water heaters are one in the same units and that is the brand I had and am having problems with . Also agree with other posts that this heat pump hot water technology is new and these heaters have issues!

Sorry to say there not New. In fact have been around for several years. 

Now the unrealistic DOE regulations have a lot to do with the issues!

ethicalpaul

Coal said the same thing about oil
Oil said the same thing about gas
Gas says the same thing about electrification

The song remains the same. Some of us like new stuff and some of us don't. For me, I'll always try something new if it makes sense to me. I've had a lot of fun trying new things and have never been burned. (insert shrug emoji)

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ethicalpaul

That is fine for you if yours had an issue you would do the research and find a fix or replace what needs replacement.

If the average contractor is faced with this issue and the MFGs are little or no help the customer gets stuck with a large bill from the contractor and failed units.

The OP wants to put 4 of these in an apartment building. He may not have the ability that you have to fix these on his own and when HW fails in an apartment building he will have angry tenants. Where the OP has stated that the contractors in his area are not familiar with these HP water heaters.

This is a difficult situation where in most areas a Plumber would be required to do the install and if the existing electric circuit is not adequate then you would need an electrician.

And neither one of those would likely have a clue about refrigeration.

If these water heaters prove to run and be reliable like most refrigerators and most window air conditioners and run for 15 years, then fine install them and toss them when they fail because the cost to fix them is probably more than they are worth.

To this point I don't think they are reliable.

I would like to see some data on how many are sold and how they are working out

ethicalpaul

I would love to see those data too, but we don't even have that for gas water heaters of different brands.

I'm curious about something you said: if they run for 15 years, fine install them and toss them when they fail because the cost to fix them is probably more than they are worth. You said it like it's a bad thing.

But name other appliances that last 15 years and are repaired when they fail after that.

Gas water heaters? Ha! Refrigerators? Maybe. Cars? Some. Steam boilers? The good ones. Computers? NOPE. TVs? Not usually.

If I get 15 years from mine I will whistle the whole time I'm dragging it to the curb. It will have lasted twice as along as a gas unit, cost less than 1/2 to run, and wouldn't have pulled my nice warm air out the flue for all those years.

hot_rod

In talking with wholesalers over the years 6-7 years is the average life expectancy of gas or electric tanks5 or 6 years being a typical warranty

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I'd have to dig for the source, but remember that the average life of both gas and electric tank-type heaters was 9-11 years, with electrics lasting slightly longer. I'm forgetting if this was from DOE or Lawrence Berkeley Labs, but someplace considered to be a reputable source. Of course, with maintenance, fifty years is within reach, but it's seldom done. Anodes are often very hard to get to in HP units, so they would be a great candidate for powered anodes.

Yours, Larry

hot_rod

I suspect water quality has a lot to do with it, as does operating temperatures 

whenever I visit wholesalers I like to look at their “bone yard”
To see what type of equipments and brands are on the pile 
I visit a lot of plumbing repair shops also and peak in to the scrap metal dumpster  which are typically furnaces and HW tanks

Days gone by, 10 years was expected. Just by lifting todays wh tanks you can tell they have less metal, and probably glass.

hot_rod

ethicalpaul said:

I would love to see those data too, but we don't even have that for gas water heaters of different brands. I'm curious about something you said: if they run for 15 years, fine install them and toss them when they fail because the cost to fix them is probably more than they are worth. You said it like it's a bad thing. But name other appliances that last 15 years and are repaired when they fail after that. Gas water heaters? Ha! Refrigerators? Maybe. Cars? Some. Steam boilers? The good ones. Computers? NOPE. TVs? Not usually. If I get 15 years from mine I will whistle the whole time I'm dragging it to the curb. It will have lasted twice as along as a gas unit, cost less than 1/2 to run, and wouldn't have pulled my nice warm air out the flue for all those years.

I like trying new products and concepts, its how we evolve 

some people prefer to be squeezed from a tube, others  shot from a rocket 

ethicalpaul

I am going to propose that the gentle heating of a heat pump water heater will let the tank live longer than one that is getting blasted with fire.

one with the plastic tank of the Rheem Marathon would be a superstar

psb75

I like the idea of "gentle heating of a heat pump water heater" being easy on the tank. But then...there is 1.) life of the compressor and 2.) life of the controls/electronics.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have seen many electrics go 20 years and I have seen gas go 12 years plus

dko

There should be more training on water quality and it's effect on equipment.

edit: sorry, completely forgot about the original post after reading through the post. in the hybrid heaters case, it's the compressor failing and not the tank so water quality would have nothing to do with that.

edit2: sorry, wrong topic. wasn't even the topic about the compressor failing.

ethicalpaul

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

I have seen many electrics go 20 years and I have seen gas go 12 years plus

Yes, my electric when I bought my CT house was a Square shape with like 1950s streamline styling, we all have seen and heard of the outlier cases, but it's no accident that the "good" warranty today is the 10 year

Eric350

State Heat Pump Water Heater Failure. In January of 2021 we replaced our water heater with a State Hybrid Electric Heat Pump Water Heater. Since that installation, we've had to replace the unit (covered by warranty) three times–yes you read that correctly, three times. In each case the compressor has failed and the unit produced an ECC code. The unit is in a clean finished basement in a room that's about 500 square feet. Through our plumber, State has provided replacement units at no cost…but never an explanation or apology. And I should note that the warranty period does not reset with the new unit.

ethicalpaul

Try a Rheem next time? It's very weird to me that companies can't figure out how to make a compressor that can work for many years. We know they can do it for dehumidifiers…it's the same tech

going_commando

So far I've been very happy with my Ruud. I like the different settings for when it used the resistive element. They payback in electric usage over a standard electric water heater was calculated at 3 years, and that's without having to buy a new water heater. I'm 20 months in, so it will break even next year and the rest is gravy. In my area water heaters last practically forever, and I have seen many tanks still in use with 1960s manufacture dates, but if this water heater lasts 7 or 8 years it will have paid for itself almost 3 times over in energy usage. I can live with that.