Fine tuning...........

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog_2

This boiler was installed 5 years ago by a Very good installer (see if you'll can see the one wrong thing?).  I was referred by the nice lady we just did the Viessman Vitodens for around the block.  

The Homeowners' said after the install, the third floor radiators & a few on second floor just wouldn't get hot!.  Over the next 5 years guys came back and changed radiator vents, tinkered with the pressure, et cetera....NO BETTER...and they got charged EVERY TIME!!! 

1) These are long  2 1/2" Steam mains.  Each had a Wimpy Gorton #1 busted down to  1/4" Bushing! Those came out but I had to be gentle with the friable ACM packing the fittings.  Each got a Gorton #2 Piped as high as possible (super important!).

2) Next, I raised & Completely rebuilt the Pressure-Control Station. (Super important to get that well above the maelstrom of the steaming, sloshing boiler water line Discarded the 404 Standard P -Trol.  I got a bucket full of them whoever wants em?).  

3) I raised the 15 # Relief Valve 6" inches higher for the same reason, and mounted my 30# PSI (Req'd by Code) and cut in a Tee for the Guage with its own piggly-Wiggley pig 🐖 Tail.

4) I set the Vaporstat cut out at 16 ounces.

After being off for 4 hours, and cold 🥶,  I flipped the switch. From a Cold start, had steam at header in 8 minutes.  Steam at the end of both mains at 12 minutes, and every radiator in the house fully hot 🔥 in 23 minutes.  Very impressive! But even more so...???  WIth the new 3 PSI Guage I was able to see actual operating pressure.  It never budged past 6-7 ounces of Steam!!!!
T Stat eventually Shut it down...

The ecstatic HO ran down in shock & Awe:
"Do you raise bodies from The Dead too???"
I smirked and nodded...It was AWESOME!!!
Just wanted to share this Fine Tuning success story and My Mad Dog 🐕 tactics.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

Bravo~ Now it's working the way it's supposed to work!

Mad Dog_2

I was actually astounded..it never budged...dont see that often.  Mad Dog 🐕 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Amazing.

reggi

Did you rip open your jacket and expose your Deadman T-shirt on when the H.O. asked you "Do you raise bodies from The Dead too???" ...No folks , but I learn from the Deadmen.. 

Mad Dog_2

That's Good Reggie...I might just do that next time...Mad Dog 🐕 

dko

I chuckled at "piggly-Wiggley"

mattmia2

Mad Dog_2 said:

I was actually astounded..it never budged...dont see that often.  Mad Dog 🐕 

So they sized it and piped it right, they just ignored the rest of the system.

Mad Dog_2

Close...but...look closer...One problem with the header, techinically..Mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

Mad Dog_2 said:

Close...but...look closer...One problem with the header, techinically..Mad Dog 🐕 

Well you don't actually show the header but i'm guessing it is that 18" piece of pipe instead of a close nipple or street ell connecting the equalizer.

mattmia2

And there is no high loop to it.

EDIT there is a high loop. i was misremembering as i thought about it more. Just the length can hold a horizontal pocket of water to hammer when the steam hits it.

mattmia2

Although i know that is the reason for the close nipple but I don't see how the air can get out of that section if the bottom of both sections are below the water line, I don't see how the air can get out for the steam to get in.

Mad Dog_2

Oops forgot those...there i go...Mad Dog 🐕 ...

Mad Dog_2

It's a really nice beefy, used both 3" Tappings, Header....but...Mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

the risers from the boiler have to both be before the risers to the main

Mad Dog_2

Voila!!!! Yes, as per manufacturers specs. That being said, with such a generous beefy full 3" Double Header, I don't think its really ever a big issue, because I've seen thousands just like it done by really good

Old timer Steam Men. They do it like this for the obvious reason: Everything looks nice, neat & Sqaured Away, and you don't have to do monkey shines & acrobatics to line everything up.  

I know several EXCELLENT heating men

 Charlie A (RIP), Vince, 3 Jimmys, John & Jimmy's, (Retired) Tony B (RIP) who did cookie 🍪 cutter, assembly line boilers. Everyone looks identical.  They Did a boiler a day for 40 -50 yrs...they yell out every nipple...4 1/2" !!!! They know how to knock out a boiler & be done by 430p.m..

I'm too artistic, eccentric and out-Of-the-box thinker. I have typical things I Always do, but no two Steam boilers look the same. Unless, the houses are all in the same development & done by the same Deadmen, there are too many different factors to contend with. My Hot water boilers are all very similar. Mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

The old steam men built thousands of headers that way, purposely against manufacturers’ instructions  and against obvious good practice because it looks neat and that’s OK? 

That’s a strange position to take.

Mad Dog_2

I couldn't tell you WHEN that became written in stone by the Manufacturers?  Why Doncha research that for us!  Moreover, people aren't made of money, Eithical Paul. Most clients have limits on what they have or will spend.  I have to focus on what's REALLY going to make a difference & fix the the problem for a minimum of dollars 💵. 

The boiler is already in 5 years, warranty on the block is water under the bridge 🌉.  If I repiped it, it would make a very miniscule difference...ask me how 🤔 I know these things....I don't recall saying this is "ok", preferred, equivalent, or swell.  I said, its already done, many otherwise-really good Heating men did them this way for years because it saved them time and fittings.  The guy used both 3" Tappings, Swing joints, good height..its DONE NOW. 

I have never personally piped one like that, even in my Green days, because I always read the instruction because I was afraid of ruining a $3 or $ 4 K hunk of equipment.  I did my first steamer in 1985.  Before then, couldn't tell ya WHAT the manuals said. (You'll get back to us on that, E.P....). When I did point this out to Charlie A, he said he NEVER heard that before.  He checked with a Bookish, Steam 🤓 nerd he knew and came back in the next day and admitted it.  He had been doing them that way since 1970..never an issue he said and I take him on his word!  He only lived another 3 years, but he never piped them that way again!  Good man..5 foot 5 145 lbs of Heating Dynamite! 

Am I mistaken or aren't you one of the fellas that insists the Eqaulizer doesn't really serve a function? The Deadmen really didn't have a handle of The Steam??? Mad Dog 🐕 

ethicalpaul

I didn't say or mean that you should have ripped it out.

I was confused because you seemed to say it was OK because you said you've "seen thousands just like it done by really good Old timer Steam Men". Just trying to understand when someone is a "hack" and when someone is a really good old timer steam man. It seems that sometimes bad installation practice is frowned upon and sometimes it's excused, depending on a variety of factors that is hard to pin down.

What I said about the equalizer is that it does not keep water in the boiler or prevent water from rising in the A dimension during boiler operation, as has been seemingly common belief. I backed this up with observable, repeatable experimentation and welcomed anyone to show otherwise. I was berated by some people, believed by some people, and as far as I have seen, never disputed by fact or observation. But that is totally separate from this topic, and as far as I can tell, you bring it up here as a personal attack, to muddy the waters.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ethicalpaul

It's not that it is ok to pipe it wrong. But boiler that have been piped "wrong" have worked very well for years. WHY?

In my opinion:

1. A lot of boilers were way oversized (we all know this). A boiler can't really produce more steam than the system can condense, as soon as it does the system will shut down on pressure.
2. Because the oversized boiler has "more sections" the steam separating area of the boiler is large compared to the system it is connected to. This reduces the velocity and turbulence in the boiler so there is probably less carryover of water.
3. Older boilers were more forgiving, had larger sections and again frequently oversized.
4. I have seen plenty of really old boiler with a supply out the top and a return in the back with no equalizer and they worked fine.
5. We see this every so often on the Wall where someone posts a picture and can't tell a gravity hot water boiler from a steamer because the only thing different is the gauge glass. There is no Hartford or equalizer, so it all looks the same

Most of the steam problems showed up in the 70s and 80s when the MFG started making small boilers. Steam separation now has to be done in the header instead of the boiler where it should be done like the old days the water in my opinion needs to stay in the boiler and has no business in the header where all it does is slosh around and kill steam.


In the old days when the water stayed in the boiler it could be piped all wrong and would probably work. Not with today's boilers. And not all of todays boiler are designed alike. Some are more difficult to make work like the Uticas with side tappings

Mad Dog_2

Now now...no personal attacks here. Relax.  I couldn't disagree with you more about the Eqaulizer, but you have your opinion, we have ours  ✌ ☮ 🕊  Mad 🐕 Dog 

ethicalpaul

Thanks Mad Dog. I'm sure it's running fine--as long as the water quality is fine and the velocity is OK, I agree there won't be an issue on this boiler. Water doesn't just shoot up the risers without a quality or velocity problem to cause it, as I showed in a couple of my videos.

My point wasn't about this one boiler, it was more about the thousands that you mentioned and the general thinking. Thanks for caring about your customers and getting their stuff working better!

mattmia2

@EBEBRATT-Ed I suspect it is one step further, that this didn't become the standard practice until boilers got smaller and didn't have space to separate water from steam internally. I do disagree with one thing, I think the larger boiler producing more steam than the system can consume will only make the incorrect piping worse. Maybe if it were all upsized for the bigger boiler it might have more space to separate but people who oversize boilers usually don't follow the minimum pipe size specs.

Steamhead

mattmia2 said:

@EBEBRATT-Ed I suspect it is one step further, that this didn't become the standard practice until boilers got smaller and didn't have space to separate water from steam internally. I do disagree with one thing, I think the larger boiler producing more steam than the system can consume will only make the incorrect piping worse. Maybe if it were all upsized for the bigger boiler it might have more space to separate but people who oversize boilers usually don't follow the minimum pipe size specs.

This. Those older boilers had huge steam chests, which took care of separating steam from water. We don't have them now, which is why piping has to be just so to produce dry steam.

Mad Dog_2

Thanks Paul E! Mad Dog 🐕 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Well, none of the old stuff matters now.

We have to deal with what we have.

Installation practices range from guys that cheat on the risers and the header and they may get away with it sometimes.

to the ones that say "I won't do steam without a drop header.

The truth is probably somewhere in between but you never know for sure. One job does not act like the next even with the same boiler. Too many variables.

My personal preference is to install the # of risers the mfg wants and make the riser 1 size bigger then the mfg calls for increasing the size right out of the boiler. This helps the water stay in the boiler and out of the header Use the MFG size for the header not a drop header unless height is an issue. And make the boiler risers as long as possible depending on the room you have. Skim it with TSP following Dans method.

The only time I deviate from that is if it is a public bid job. Then they get whats on the print or the MFG minimum whatever of those two is better. You give the engineer whats on the print he is happy and the other contractors bid accordingly (you hope). If the engineer draws a lesser job than the mfg requires you through that in his face.

JMHO