Copper Riser from Boiler to Main

ParallelUp2

I have 2.5in fitting on boiler that shrinks to 2in copper for rise up to 3in main. There's a few fittings from end of copper to get back to 3in. Note there's horizontal feed off copper to an equalizer? this is a 2 main dry return one-pipe system its been like this years and none of the service techs have mentioned it- does this have to go- is going 2.5in at boiler to 3in cast iron riser better and if so why? thanks

Jamie Hall

Well, as you obviously know it isn't the way it should be done. And it may be somewhat less efficient than it might be.

However.

As I've said before, sometimes one sees steam setups which just don't look as though they should work at all -- but do. If the system is quiet -- no hammering -- and you are satisfied with the heat in the building, I'd not spend much effort to redo it -- until you need a new boiler. Then you can pipe that one correctly.

Steamhead

Looks like the main is also 2-1/2". If it were up to me, I'd repipe it.

For those not familiar, that Williamson boiler is probably a re-branded Weil-McLain SGO.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ParallelUp2

:

1. Copper is not recommended for steam. It expands and contracts more than steel pipe and the expansion and contraction weaken the solder joints over time. Although there are systems that have used copper successfully for steam (Iron Fireman Select temp is one) the piping has to be designed with enough flexibility to expand and contract.

2. Most residential installers do not have the tools to install steel pipe larger than 2" because it requires special tools. So they use copper.

3. Pipe size. A boiler puts out a given amount of steam. If you use pipe that is too small (undersized) the steam velocity (think miles/hour) of the steam increases. The steam cannot separate from the water in the boiler correctly and the increased velocity pulls the water from the boiler creating wet steam. This can cause unsteady water line in the boiler, water thrown up into the supply piping causing spitting air vents, water hammer uneven heating and a host of other problems.


Your boiler should have had a 2 1/2" riser from the boiler instead of 2". Then the pipe should elbow horizontally. The horizontal pipe is called a header. Some boilers use more that 1 riser depending on the boiler size.

In the header which is usually larger than the riser size the velocity slows down so the steam and water can separate. The supplies that feed the house should come off the top of the header. The far end of the header is where the equalizer connects. Its job is to drain any water that gets into the header back to the boiler and to equalize the pressure between the boiler supply and return. The equalizer connection is best made with an elbow the same size as the header turned down toward the back of the boiler and good practice is not to reduce the equalizer size until below the boiler water line.

STEAM DOCTOR

Certainly not kosher. But you do have decent vertical rise, which works in your favor. In general, vertical piping is a bit more forgiving then horizontal piping. 

Mad Dog_2

That's an easy repipe. Anytime, the supply out of a steam boiler is reduced, its a Dead Giveaway...Hack Job!  Mad Dog 🐕 

ParallelUp2

Thanks for the comments and help - been reading Lost Art of Steam Heating (revisited) and learned more about my system in past week than knew in 18yrs i owned this place. my service has been done by oil company guys. Up until couple years ago i had hot water from boiler (now separate gas hot water) and there was 2nd zone with 1/2in copper feeding baseboards in basement fed by pump that burned out. I had that all removed. There were old Hoffman non-adjustable vents on radiators for 1st and 2nd floor (4 radiators 2nd floor and 6 on1st floor) with 2 mains feeding front of house and back. Had and still have uneven heating and a couple slow radiators (2 biggest)- oil guy took all old vents off put on cheap home depot vents that shrieked like steam kettle and blew steam. Replaced them with new adjustable Hoffman vents. Got guy not associated with oil company to do clean service of boiler last few years. Used to have bad water hammer when did hot water from boiler- now know water level was too high- old glass was marked > 7/8 full by one of oil co service guys years ago saying i needed more water in boiler for hot water. Far less water hammer now system still not balanced but works better with less water in boiler (1/2 full).
My 2nd question is can someone please identify that horizontal copper pipe off copper leading to header? Please see photo.
My 3rd question is the main vents. Any idea make model? Home was built 1950 any chance these are original vents? I see they are on elbow. there's space to put one back and up but other has beam in way- can i have 45 degree riser used to get by beam and put new vent on top of that?

ParallelUp2

Here's pic of beam in the way

pecmsg

ParallelUp2 said:

Thanks for the comments and help - been reading Lost Art of Steam Heating (revisited) and learned more about my system in past week than knew in 18yrs i owned this place. my service has been done by oil company guys. Up until couple years ago i had hot water from boiler (now separate gas hot water) and there was 2nd zone with 1/2in copper feeding baseboards in basement fed by pump that burned out. I had that all removed. There were old Hoffman non-adjustable vents on radiators for 1st and 2nd floor (4 radiators 2nd floor and 6 on1st floor) with 2 mains feeding front of house and back. Had and still have uneven heating and a couple slow radiators (2 biggest)- oil guy took all old vents off put on cheap home depot vents that shrieked like steam kettle and blew steam. Replaced them with new adjustable Hoffman vents. Got guy not associated with oil company to do clean service of boiler last few years. Used to have bad water hammer when did hot water from boiler- now know water level was too high- old glass was marked > 7/8 full by one of oil co service guys years ago saying i needed more water in boiler for hot water. Far less water hammer now system still not balanced but works better with less water in boiler (1/2 full).
My 2nd question is can someone please identify that horizontal copper pipe off copper leading to header? Please see photo.
My 3rd question is the main vents. Any idea make model? Home was built 1950 any chance these are original vents? I see they are on elbow. there's space to put one back and up but other has beam in way- can i have 45 degree riser used to get by beam and put new vent on top of that?

#2: A poor Equalizer!

ethicalpaul

We can't tell from that picture of your boiler piping (it is too zoomed in), but it looks like you don't have a header and as pecmeg indicated, what you seem to have is someone's poor understanding of what steam near-boiler piping should be (despite a perfectly useable diagram that ships with every boiler in the installation manual).

edit: yeah I looked at your earlier picture, that near-boiler piping is atrociously bad. I guess you know that already

ParallelUp2

Hello Ed- your Item 3 describes what i see from regular boiler operation "3. Pipe size. A boiler puts out a given amount of steam. If you use pipe that is too small (undersized) the steam velocity (think miles/hour) of the steam increases. The steam cannot separate from the water in the boiler correctly and the increased velocity pulls the water from the boiler creating wet steam. This can cause unsteady water line in the boiler, water thrown up into the supply piping causing spitting air vents, water hammer uneven heating and a host of other problems."

ParallelUp2

The water line is unsteady in the glass, there's hammering (less now with lower water level) the system is not balanced and the heat is humid. i like the concept of dry steam and understand velocity carrying water with steam up throttled near-boiler piping. I don't have as good a handle on the Equalizer and how to pipe that correctly but it seems my current set-up misses the point. Thanks again for informative response from you and all the others on this page. I'm usually a lighthouse keeper in winter unable to go far from my heating system because problems always seem to arise and the techs from oil companies seem to focus on replacing parts and say i need gas fired boiler to take care of system problems or that steam systems are quirky and just have to live with it. Now beginning to learn there's actual reasons for why system doesn't work right and near boiler piping from replacement boiler looks to be a cause/

ethicalpaul

This will illustrate this topic, it's the best description of the issue I have seen (focus on page 19 and 20):

https://www.peerlessboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/OnePipeSteam.pdf

"the heat is humid" your steam system is probably not to blame for that unless your vents are actively leaking steam into the living space, which would indicate they have failed.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ParallelUp2

What @ethicalpaul posted is excellent steam information. If you want a specif drawing of what you near boiler piping is supposed to be look in the boiler manual.

If you don't have the manual you can find it online or post your boiler make and model here and we can find it for you.

ParallelUp2

Thanks all i got a steam system guy coming by to check out what i have going on with near boiler piping. hopefully get some changes made and not spend a fortune!!

ParallelUp2

Good Afternoon!! Thanks to Dan Holohan for opening my eyes enough to look for problems thanks to the Wall for verifying i had problems and to Doug from Veterans Steam of RI for fixing the problems- my near boiler piping now a thing of beauty