Does My Steam Boiler Have A Problem?

neilc

I thought Bruno Campisi was a lawyer firm

Chris_L

gflash said:

I am curious - I am comparing the Burnhan SteamMAX vs the equivalent Weil Mclean:

https://www.weil-mclain.com/products/eg-series-6-gas-boiler

The smallest boilers both have 75 MBTU input, 62 MBTU output, 82% efficiency but the Burnham has Steam sq ft of 169 while the Weil McLean has a Steam sq ft rating of 196. Why would they be different?

Because Burham has a typo in their data sheet, and this SteamMax also is also 196 square feet. (Someone transposed the 9 and the 6). You can see this by taking the Steam MBH value and converting it to square feet. You'll come up with 196.

gflash

OK, so I got an estimate from the first guy that looked at my boiler on Friday over the phone (still waiting an email). He is proposing giving me a 112K BTU Dunkirk. I asked if it was possible to get a smaller one and he said no. His "cash price" came in higher than the Bruni and Campisi one. I chose this company for an estimate because it had so many good reviews (Google, Nextdoor, Yelp) and could service my Navien too.

I brought out another person to look at the boiler this morning. This is one I found from the Peerless website. I asked him about Peerless boilers and he said they were not good - he said Weil McLean and Burnham were better. I asked him if there were any issues with the Independence and he said no. He is proposing replacing (I am assuming with a Burnham) and keeping as much of the original equipment as possible (e.g. reuse the header, water feeder, low water cutoff). I showed him the radiators upstairs and he didn't say anything about spacers which Bruni & Campisi mentioned. I asked about sizing and he said "keep it the same, don't want to mess with it". He said he would send me an email.

I am getting another estimate this afternoon. I have two others which I have left messages for (one was from Shark Fin website). Still waiting for responses.

Looks like Bruni & Campisi is the winner so far.

pecmsg

Has anyone of these contractors taken measurements of the Radiators and calculated the total EDR? Even a rough estimate?

gflash

@pecmsg Only Bruni & Campisi. The others so far no. These are all licensed plumbers in Westchester county which explicitly advertise boiler replacement on their websites.

ethicalpaul

Well the first guy is a complete liar:



The guy who said there are no issues with Independence is either a liar or has been living under a rock for the last 10 years.

I love the guy who was on the peerless website doesn't like peerless (which in my opinion is a fantastic steam boiler--I installed mine myself).

I formerly had a Utica (dunkirk) of the 112 size. It lasted pretty well but was oversized (I have about 200 sq ft of steam). I wouldn't buy one because I don't like their side-outlet steam supply design.

I'd throw all these guys out of my house especially the guy who said "keep it the same size, don't mess with it".

pecmsg

gflash said:

@pecmsg Only Bruni & Campisi. The others so far no. These are all licensed plumbers in Westchester county which explicitly advertise boiler replacement on their websites.

Contact member @EzzyT

KC_Jones

Anyone that doesn't measure the radiators should not be hired, they are guessing, with your money.

They are admitting, to your face, their refusal to do their job. It's quite sad actually.

Your house needs the smallest steam boiler made, and that will still, technically, be oversized by a bit. Anyone proposing something bigger shouldn't be hired.

Also, make sure you have it in writing that it will be installed to manufactures specifications. The piping on these boilers is critical and needs to be done properly.

gflash

OK, so I got my current company out to give me an estimate.

I asked what was wrong with my current boiler install. He didn't say anything was wrong. I asked about a bypass to my water feeder and he said it wasn't necessary. I asked about whether he would send the fresh water into the return line and he said no. I asked him to check the size of the boiler. We went around and measured the radiators. The radiators the other guy said were 32s he measured as 36 (he measured the whole outer length). He didn't mention anything about the height of the valves.

He wants to install Lennox instead of Burnham because it has a 10 year warranty on parts too. Even though he sized my radiators at 180, he said he didn't want to give me anything smaller than the 112K BTU version. The verbal estimate was also 3.5K to 4K higher than the estimates I have received so far from the other two.

Mad Dog_2

I told you Bruno and Campisi is your best choice.  Look no further.  As far as insisting that the same contractor services your Navien is understandable, but unrealistic G Flash.  Many can service a Navien, very few are competent with The Steam and even less, Very Good. B & C may do that, but if they don't, I wouldn't dismiss them.  Mistake. Mad Dog 🐕 

KC_Jones

gflash said:

OK, so I got my current company out to give me an estimate.

I asked what was wrong with my current boiler install. He didn't say anything was wrong. I asked about a bypass to my water feeder and he said it wasn't necessary. I asked about whether he would send the fresh water into the return line and he said no. I asked him to check the size of the boiler. We went around and measured the radiators. The radiators the other guy said were 32s he measured as 36 (he measured the whole outer length). He didn't mention anything about the height of the valves.

He wants to install Lennox instead of Burnham because it has a 10 year warranty on parts too. Even though he sized my radiators at 180, he said he didn't want to give me anything smaller than the 112K BTU version. The verbal estimate was also 3.5K to 4K higher than the estimates I have received so far from the other two.

And what factual reason, backed up with numbers did he give for this? I'm guessing nothing because he actually has no clue what he's talking about. Ridiculous.

Question, did he pull out a book to size that radiator, or is he claiming he memorized every single radiator that ever existed and can do it by sight? The height, depth, and style of radiator are how it's sized, then the number of sections. Simply measuring the length is glorified guessing. There is no need to measure length that I am aware of, since the square footage is rated by section.

gflash

KC_Jones said:

And what factual reason, backed up with numbers did he give for this? I'm guessing nothing because he actually has no clue what he's talking about. Ridiculous.

Question, did he pull out a book to size that radiator, or is he claiming he memorized every single radiator that ever existed and can do it by sight? The height, depth, and style of radiator are how it's sized, then the number of sections. Simply measuring the length is glorified guessing. There is no need to measure length that I am aware of, since the square footage is rated by section.

It wasn't really clear to me why he wouldn't go smaller...other than pointing at the big difference in size to the next boiler down and claiming it would be too small.

The Bruni & Campisi rep said for my radiators there is 1 foot of steam per inch...so I assumed this guy was doing the same calculation. But of course, he didn't use the measurements.

He still also made the claim that steam boilers only last 15-20 years so that the replacement of my boiler was normal (I am replacing this after 16 years).

KC_Jones

gflash said:

KC_Jones said:

And what factual reason, backed up with numbers did he give for this? I'm guessing nothing because he actually has no clue what he's talking about. Ridiculous.

Question, did he pull out a book to size that radiator, or is he claiming he memorized every single radiator that ever existed and can do it by sight? The height, depth, and style of radiator are how it's sized, then the number of sections. Simply measuring the length is glorified guessing. There is no need to measure length that I am aware of, since the square footage is rated by section.

It wasn't really clear to me why he wouldn't go smaller...other than pointing at the big difference in size to the next boiler down and claiming it would be too small.

The Bruni & Campisi rep said for my radiators there is 1 foot of steam per inch...so I assumed this guy was doing the same calculation. But of course, he didn't use the measurements.

He still also made the claim that steam boilers only last 15-20 years so that the replacement of my boiler was normal (I am replacing this after 16 years).

My last Weil Mclain lasted 32 years with questionable maintenance, so I don't know what they are talking about either.

I do not understand the obsession with wanting to oversize these boilers. You need the smallest one you can get based on the contractors calculations you posted on page 1 of this thread. (160-168).

I was just reviewing some of your comments and must have missed this one:

"He said the valve is actually placed wrong and should be placed much higher towards the top of the radiator...so he will be pricing out replacing these valves plus adding a spacer to move them higher."

Could you post a picture of what they are talking about? If they are talking about the vent, that is supposed to be below the middle of the radiator on the end, if that's where yours are, they are fine and should not be moved. Moving them to the top is actually wrong and can cause issues.

gflash

I had understood he wanted to push up the vent as shown below

On the estimate he added the following:

26BN 2 X 6 BLACK NIPPLE 3.00
34212BN 3/4 X 2 1/2 BLACK NIPPLE 6.00
3418BMRCOUP 3/4 X 1/8 BLACK MALLEABLE COUPLING 6.00
STRAIGHTVARIVNTSTRAIGHT VARI VENT 6.00

I assume the first three are to raise the new vari vents?

gflash

I got the project manager out today about the boiler installation. He said that there is no STMX75 but instead there is a conversion kit to convert a STMX100 into a STMX75. Similarly there is no STMX125, there is only a STMX150 with a kit to de-rate the burner. Does that make sense?

ethicalpaul

Sounds like a SteamMax problem, not a "you" problem. There are several nice boilers available in a size that matches your radiation. I would choose one of those:

1. Peerless 63-03L
2. WM or Williamson, they are basically the same
3. Even Utica 75k is out there but I'm not a fan of the Dunkirk design, but it works.

nde

Yes that makes sense look at steammax specs same 3 section block with different btu input. They and other boiler manufacturers use same block for 2 diff btu inputs to scale more efficiently.

ethicalpaul

Yes they all do that, but the others actually list for sale and ship all their sizes rather than force you to buy a conversion kit (although the manufacturer conversion kits are always an option)

KC_Jones

gflash said:

I got the project manager out today about the boiler installation. He said that there is no STMX75 but instead there is a conversion kit to convert a STMX100 into a STMX75. Similarly there is no STMX125, there is only a STMX150 with a kit to de-rate the burner. Does that make sense?

I makes sense to a degree given how the manufacturer builds the units (1 block does 2 sizes with a burner change). That said, are they trying to put in the 100, when the 75 is what you need? As long as they put in the smallest boiler, for me, how they get there doesn't matter.

Now if they are proposing putting in the larger boiler, that makes zero sense, no matter what they say. To restate, there is no "intelligent" thing they can say to explain that. It would all be made up BS.

Mad Dog_2

The guys are right.  I'm a Burnham man first, but if that bakery don't got my bread ...next.  Peerless, Utica, Weil Mc clain, Crown is very good.  I really can't name a "Bad" company. That being said, you will be ok as long as the new boiler is set up and dialed in with a Combustion analyzer after the install.  Mad Dog 🐕