Does My Steam Boiler Have A Problem?

gflash

I have had a stream boiler for about 16 years now (a Burnham independence boiler - we replaced it immediately after we bought the house). When I started it up this year it seems to be acting a bit different. A few things:

- it seems to be taking a lot longer to start. When I turn the heating on, the intake fan starts immediately but it often takes several minutes for I hear the click and the flame to be turned up.

- I had thought one of the heating people I had engaged over the years (they seem to be so hit and miss - one guy at a company will have all the answers and the next knows little) had set the max pressure to about 3psi. Now I see it going up to 5psi

- I thought I am hearing a hissing sound once the pressure goes up (> 3psi)

- It seems to be taking a lot of water now. Every 20 minutes it will autofill.

-If I leave the boiler room door closed then open it again after a few minutes I notice a bit of steam in the room (this happens when the pressure is high). My glasses fog up. I notice a bit of condensation on the Honeywell Pressuretrol glass.

- I don't see any water on the floor anywhere and I don't see any smoke coming out of the chimney...which I assume is a good thing.

I had someone come out from the company I do my maintenance contract with. I told the rep about the slow startup and he said "it is just old". I mentioned how often it seems to be filling and he said "that isn't a problem as I have an automatic water feeder". I mention the pressure that I had understood that the cutoff was set to lower...and he said it wasn't a problem unless it hits 15psi...and if that happens the pressure release valve will open. Further concerns were met with repetition of the "oh, the system is old" and stated that the boilers only last 10-15 years anyway.

I assume I should get another opinion here or am I overreacting? I am a bit stressing about this as I go away in about a month leaving my mother in law home alone. I don't want anything to go wrong when I am away.

I live in the Yonkers area just north of NYC. Any advice on heating contractors knowledgeable in steam for this area?

bburd

It sounds like you do have a problem. When a boiler is taking on makeup water like that there is a leak somewhere, and continuing to run it that way will shorten the boiler's life drastically due to corrosion from the oxygen in the incoming water. Whoever told you the makeup water usage and high steam pressure are normal does not understand steam heat.

Fortunately you live in an area with some of the best steam contractors in the country. Try the "find a contractor" feature on this site.

Jamie Hall

Oh dear. It sounds to me as though you may have several problems, not just one.

First and probably easiest -- the pressure is much too high at cutoff. Now there could be two reasons for that. First, what is the pressuretrol or other control device set at? Various devices have various means of setting, so if you could give a model number or photo it would help. The most common device, however, has one scale on the front, which is the "cutin" pressure. If that's what you have, that should be set to just above the lowest possible setting -- 0.5 psi. That will give you a cutout, in most cases, of 1.5 psi, which is just what you want.

The other possible problem with the pressure setting is that the pigtail -- the pipe connecting the pressure device to the boiler -- is plugged up. Happens rather often, actually. The solution there -- and it may be more than you want to do -- is to take the pressure control off the pigtail and verify that you can blow freely (or pour water freely!) through the pigtail into the boiler. If not, the pigtail and where it threads in will have to be cleaned out.

Now, however, you have a far more serious problem. You have, it would seem a steam leak. Sadly, it's most likely to be in the boiler, although it could be a leak in a pipe (but that's rare). You should not have to fill the boiler with water often -- a gallon or two per month would be good, although as much as a gallon a week isn't necessarily a catastrophe. Every 20 minutes is not good. Not good at all.

The slow start up doesn't seem right either. Many newer controls do have a prepurge delay, but I doubt that it would be over a minute, and 15 to 30 seconds before ignition seems more likely.

All of which means that you really need a qualified steam and burner technician to come and look at your situation. Have you tried "Find a Contractor" on this site? There are several very good people who work in your area, but I would imagine they are all pretty busy.

gflash

I looked. I am terrible at choosing these things. Most of them are out on Long Island or NYC...or they look commercial instead of residential. Perhaps Dual Fuel may be OK (it mentions Westchester on their website)?

gflash

This is what my pressuretrol is set to

Jamie Hall

That is an excellent pressuretrol -- don't let someone take it away and give you a "better" one.

Now. That said. It may run properly set that way, but it would be better to actually raise the "main" scale slightly to exactly 2, and leave the "diff." scale alone. You can use the screw on the top of the case to do that.

Having done that, take a level -- a very good one -- and check and make use that the box is actually level. The one downside of that type of pressuretrol is that they are very sensitive to being out of level. If it isn't level, do whatever is needed to make it level -- and make it stay that way.

But... before you do that, if your boiler pressure is actually running up over the pressuretrol setting, take the pressuretrol off (may be easier said than done -- you may have to disconnect it)(take pictures and label the wires!) and check that the connection through to the boiler is clear. It probably isn't...

BobC

When checking the pressuretrol for level you want ot level when it's at temperature producing steam. The pigtail under the pressuretrol will shift slightly as it heats up.

Some of these controls have a built in leveling arrow so you can quickly dheck if the control is level.

Bob

EBEBRATT-Ed

@gflash

Unfortunately it sounds like your boiler is leaking. The added make up water and your glasses fogging are pretty good clues.

Call some of the contractors on this site even if they are not in your location. They may be able to recommend someone.

gflash

Thanks very much for all the response! This is really helpful.

gflash

@Jamie Hall Thanks for the information about the pressuretrol. I did complain to my current company and got someone better to come out. They did. I wasn't game myself to take off the pressuretrol myself so I let him take it off and check for blockages. Sure enough there was a blockage in the pigtail so he cleaned that out, put it back and now the pressure appears to be right.

The slow startup appears to be a wiring issue between the intake fan and the boiler. He played with the wires a bit and now it seems to be starting up straight away.

We had a talk about the high water usage and I am not so confident he understood it. He was telling me to leave it off and mark the water level...then come back a couple of days later and check it again. I never saw water loss when the boiler was off. Since it was really late I let him go for the evening. At least some progress has been made.

Unfortunately I still seem to be losing water even though the pressure isn't getting as high . I will bring out another company to have a look on Friday. Ugh.

EdTheHeaterMan

Water or steam leaks are often difficult to find. They can be in return pipes that are hidden under the basement floor or they can be in the steaming area above the water line. It can be in the boiler itself or it can be on a pipe connected the the boiler.

Does your boiler have an automatic feed valve that puts the water in the boiler for you, or do you have to open a valve manually because the water gets too low and the burner stops?

If you have an auto feed... is it the type with a digital number readout? If so, that number is the gallons that the valve passes (approximately). It is good to know how many gallons per month/week you are putting into that boiler. That will determine if you need to worry about it now or if it can wait until next summer. If you are adding gallon(s) per day, then you need to find that leak and solve that problem soon, before it gets to be December. ...or you can do what I did, Move South!

KC_Jones

By your description you have a hole in the boiler above the water line and the steam is escaping from that point, this is why you are only losing water when it runs. The test for this is to overfill the boiler, if you get water on the floor, the boiler is done. If you don't get water, then there is a steam leak somewhere else, main vents would be the next thing to look at, if failed open they would give a similar set of symptoms that you listed.

I'd also suggest you choose the contractor very carefully and make sure it is in writing that they will do the install per manufacturers instructions. The people you have coming out now don't sound very knowledgeable. If it does need replaced you can post pictures of the existing install and we can comment if it was done properly. We can also assist with boiler sizing as a reality check to see if the current boiler is proper and if the contractor is doing it correctly as well.

Jamie Hall

If the one contractor you could find is in Massachusetts, and is named Charles Garrity ( @Charlie from wmass ), he's one of the very best -- and does work in Connecticut. And is beyond busy...

Charlie from wmass

Yonkers is outside of my service area. Posting a photo of your current installation may help the other people responding on this post. If the plastic cover on your pressuretrol is fogging up it may be in the pressuretrol that you have a leak. If you were judging your pressured by your pressure gauge it is highly likely to be inaccurate at this age. If you have a Mercury pressuretrol and it came with your boiler your boiler is much more than 16 years old or it is a used control.

gflash

Here is my current setup. The intake fan was added in 2013 when we finished the basement (this was inspected by the City Of Yonkers at that point). The last major change was the water intake had to get replaced in 2018. I believe the low water shutoff had an issue with it and got repaired/replaced at some point too.

gflash

This boiler has always been a bit of a drama. I grew up in a warm climate where we didn't need to worry about these things (Australia). The most we needed were floor heaters.

When I bought the house in 2007, the boiler was running but REALLY old. It wasn't even a proper gas boiler. It was an oil boiler that had been converted to gas which also took care of the hot water.

A month after we moved in it died. I didn't believe it was worth fixing (it was ancient) so I decided to go instantaneous hot water and have a boiler just for heating. I didn't know what I was doing (and I have no family here to ask for advice) so I made lots of mistakes here. The company I chose put in a boiler way too big...so I had to fight to get them to fix the issue once I realized this. A year later when another plumber was looking at my instantaneous hot water system he mentioned the plumbing on the boiler was not right and the pressure was set too high so I got him to fix it (he charged a lot for this fix). I didn't see the point of trying to go back to the original company as how could I trust them to fix it right.

I stayed with his company for maintenance for a few years (he was the owner). But the people he sent out were not very good and quite unfriendly. I am frustrated by the "hit and miss" of it all so I switched to the company I have now (they are on the Con Ed recommended list). A couple of years ago I needed to replace the instantaneous hot water system and they were the ones that knew the most (I knew the right questions to ask now - that was another can of worms, I haven't been lucky in these things so far) so I felt I was finally in good hands. But it has thrown me now that they initially sent out someone who really knows nothing about steam boilers. That doesn't give me much confidence for their maintenance plan.

For Friday I have asked a different company which really is close by and has good recommendation (they have a higher per hour rate than my current company). I specifically said I need someone that knows something about steam and they promised me the person they send will. I was looking into them for replacing my instantaneous water heater a couple of years ago but was way too busy. I looked through the list on Heating Help and most don't mention Westchester...or they are commercial only. I contacted the one closest to be which mentions Westchester and they said they only deal with buildings with more that 100 units...and they couldn't give me any recommendation.

gflash

This is the size of the current boiler. We have a small one story, two bedroom house with finished basement and no attic insulation currently. I believe this is the second smallest Independence boiler size. It was installed 2007...though it looks like it was manufactured in 2004

Charlie from wmass

You sound like you are capable with some hands-on testing. If you manually fill the boiler up above the sight glass and see if any water pours out onto the burners you will know if you have a hole in the boiler. If water does start to come out make sure you have  accessibility to reach the boiler drain and that it is functioning to draw the water back down again. This is the fastest way to check for a hole. My boilers in my own home take water twice the heating season. I consider that a lot of water for a closed system. If you have piping that goes underground it would also be suspect for leaks. Calling for water every 20 minutes is your system screaming for help.

gflash

@Charlie from wmass Thanks very much for this advice! My apologies if I am being too cautious but I want to 100% make sure I do this right and not make the situation worse. So I need to go right up to the top here (or stop when I hear water dripping, whichever comes first - I took it up to 3/4 full before)...then just drain it back down to the normal level using my usual way of changing the water?

If I tell a contractor I suspect a leak is this the first thing they would try (if they knew what they were doing)? Would this test be something that should be done as part of a yearly maintenance check? I am wanting to make sure I can verify that a contractor knows what they are doing.

dabrakeman

You can pay a guy to do the leak test if you want but it is pretty easy and it will tell you whether your boiler itself is shot or not which is some valuable upfront information to have if talking to a contractor.  Looks like you understand how to do it.

Charlie from wmass

You can also do the Pope test on the boiler. I just did one of those. The customer had a simple no heat issue I reset the safeties, check the draft, and was on my way after advising them to have their chimneys cleaned. As I went back to the truck there were plumes of white billowy smoke coming out of their chimney. I went back to the customer and let them know I was sending them a quote for a new boiler after doing it quick radiator survey. The Pope test is looking at the chimney while the boiler is running seeing if there are plumes of white smoke coming out the chimney.

dabrakeman

I've been fooled looking at my chimney plume before. Cold winter morning I can see a pretty good plume and get pretty worried. Other days nothing. The boiler fill test seems more reliable for determining whether there is hole in your boiler.

Mad Dog_2

You've got a Bazooka Header...Whomever you hire, make sure they are Licensed and insured in your area. Also, request a few references of RECENT steam installs from the last few years to see if they are any good.  Mad Dog 🐕 

gflash

Thanks very much for the response! This is really helpful.

OK, so I got someone else out. They confirmed my worst fears. The boiler is done. I thought I heard steam from the back of the boiler and he said the same thing (I hadn't heard it before this year). He felt the steam just like I did. His argument was for the early failure was the fresh water line running direct into the boiler. He said it should go into the return line. I assume that is right? It does make sense (the hot and cold together putting stress on the system). I didn't know this. Though wouldn't a hot water heater with tank have the same issue? Though I guess that is a much lower temperature differential.

He checked upstairs and heard that three vents didn't close. He mentioned that if I get them replaced I should get variable vents.

The third thing he mentioned was there should be a bypass for the water feeder so I can feed it manually if it fails.

I think we agreed that leaks in the return line are unlikely (that was replaced when I got the boiler 16 years ago). If I leave it doing nothing the water level is stable. That is all above ground (though hidden behind sheetrock).

The only thing which made me think here was about how much water usage to expect. I was hoping he would say "normally it should only be filling X times per month. If you see any more than this then you should call someone". He didn't say that.

Ugh, so now looking for estimates. I am assuming this is going to cost around $10K in my area.

Charlie from wmass

I disagree with the freshwater inlet into the boiler being an issue. But this is a hot button item and could be debated hotly for years. Most automatic feeders only allow one gallon per minute to flow into the boiler. It could be an issue if somebody manually fed the boiler through a bypass valve. Now is your chance to get a properly sized boiler.

gflash

I will be getting an estimate from this person for a new boiler later today. Also to replace all the vents on my steam radiators and service my Navien instantaneous hot water (he said the right things).

Would it be dumb to ask my current company for a price...or should I just be finding other contractors?

neilc

did this last contractor measure all your radiators ?
this is the only way to be sure you're getting the appropriately sized steam boiler,
Do not accept a boiler proposal sized to your existing boiler unless a radiator survey is done and proves existing is right sized, (it won't be)

this is a good 1st disqualifier for any contractor,
ask your current company for a proposal,
see if they need to survey your radiators,

then from any proposing company,
ask them for pictures of their last 2 or 3 steam installs, digitally,
you will post them here, and get responses to appropriateness of the prior installs as 2nd qualifiers,

gflash

How can I size the boiler myself? Here is an example of one of the radiators (I have six total). It looks really old style. For Burnham boilers I am already on the second smallest (INI4) and the next one down is 40% smaller:

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/Independence+Product+Data+Sheet.pdf

neilc

excellent question, and good intentions to know this yourself,

others here will know the EDR for that unit,
but post again with a tape measure laid down for length,
also note the fin width and height, and that pipe diameter also,

if other convectors / rads are a different size, post the picture for length of each,
(like the bathroom)

you'll list the 6 EDRs, add them up, then buy as close as possible to that EDR(Steam Sq Ft column) size,
(I'm betting on the IN 3)

gflash

So am I getting the right measures here? Four out of the six radiators are identical (or pretty close to identical. The other two are smaller.

So I am reading off

Length=33
Width=5.5
Height=2.5
Pipe=1.75 (ish)

The other two are a little smaller - the kitchen length of 18.5, bathroom length of 11 with pipe perhaps 1/4 inch smaller.

I don't know if it is relevant but we currently have no insulation on the basement pipe (the old insulation was removed when we finished the basement). This currently keeps the basement easily warm enough in winter.

ChicagoCooperator

Make sure you vacuum that dust off the convectors - it really reduces output on them.

gflash

Will do. Thanks for the advice!

Mad Dog_2

G Flash..it's admirable that you are sizing your own boiler, but any company or guy that doesn't do that as part of the quote is only GUESSING...Not a good sign.  Mad Dog 🐕 

gflash

I am getting more estimates.

pecmsg

Mad Dog_2 said:

G Flash..it's admirable that you are sizing your own boiler, but any company or guy that doesn't do that as part of the quote is only GUESSING...Not a good sign.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Unfortunately, that's becoming the norm!

Most companies are only interested in making the sale.

gflash

OK, so I got a second person out today. Asked about sizing. For my radiators which are 5.5 inches wide he said you size 1 sq. foot steam per inch length of the radiator. He said my style radiators are sized per 4 inches. So the one I sized at 33 is really a 32. The bathroom he called a 12 and the kitchen one he just rounded up to 20. So I guess that means 160 sq ft of heat (I think I saw 168 on his sheet so I am not sure what the difference is)?

He said the Burnham Independence boilers had longevity issues which is why they are no longer selling them. Something about the top of the boiler having pins (bolts?) on the top/side which would capture moisture. Also the Independence boilers were spaced far apart (35K BTU to go up a model). Thus the Independence boilers are no longer being sold. The new SteamMax does not have the pins above the water line and now is spaced 25K BTU apart. So would size me dead on the STMX075:

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/SteamMax+Product+Data+Sheet.pdf

I asked - anything wrong with my current setup? He agreed with the other guy that the water should be sent into the return. He also said the Hartford loop was too low. My current Hartford loop comes up just below the bottom of the water gauge. He said an important goal of the Hartford loop is to protect against a leak in the return line so he said it should come a couple of inches higher.

We also commented at the radiators. He said it was pretty clear I had been having leaks due to the rust stains. He said the valve is actually placed wrong and should be placed much higher towards the top of the radiator...so he will be pricing out replacing these valves plus adding a spacer to move them higher.

neilc

I'm starting to like this guy,
did he have pictures?
dare share his name or company name?

if your 160 is correct, then yes to the 75, at 169,
you're not worried about 8s or 9s,
you're worried about 80s and 90s,
or 300s

gflash

This is Bruni & Campisi.

I haven't got any pictures or references yet. I just got the estimate and I have a couple of questions (there were typos - up the top he said STMX75 but in the listing at the bottom it says STMX100, it says 5 vents instead of 6) so I will ask him now for them (via email - it is important but not urgent). If he doesn't respond by afternoon Monday, I will call him.

gflash

I am curious - I am comparing the Burnhan SteamMAX vs the equivalent Weil Mclean:

https://www.weil-mclain.com/products/eg-series-6-gas-boiler

The smallest boilers both have 75 MBTU input, 62 MBTU output, 82% efficiency but the Burnham has Steam sq ft of 169 while the Weil McLean has a Steam sq ft rating of 196. Why would they be different?

neilc

don't be bothered by 3 sq ft,
30, yes, maybe,

why,
because,
(that's not different)

Mad Dog_2

I don't know Bruno &  Campisi,  personally, but I have seen their boilers up in Westchester and they do very nice work. Mad Dog 🐕