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Navien hot water heater toxic gases?
Comments
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Thank you Jamie for continuing to consider our situation. We feel like we are in a nightmare. Whatever is happening in our home seems like a very rare occurrence.Jamie Hall said:All three of the first compounds I listed can cause symptoms at relatively low levels which are consistent with the ones you report. Formaldehyde is much more likely to show up with respiratory irritation and problems, so I'd be more suspicious of the first group. Some paint thinners also contain compounds which have similar effects, though generally more mild (as if that helps any...).
The three compounds- trichloroethane, tetrachloroethane, and tetrachloroethylene, are there blood tests for these? And I believe you said there wasn't a detector for these? How can we find these? (I did research these chemicals and found they can be found in paints, that gives us hope that our discovery and disposal of the paints will be the cure).
Would any of these chemicals be found in/on carpet? I didn't mention we were suspicious of our carpet(or carpet pad) because it made our feet burn and itch. We just had it super cleaned (high heat with multiple passes) a few days ago and now we no longer itch. Burning is still present so we're getting the treatment repeated next week.
Many of the hygenists I spoke with today recommended testing vocs or tvocs. Testing is expensive and we want to make the right choices. A few mentioned formaldehyde as a possible suspect, but our symptoms just don't seem to match. Any recommendations would be most helpful
Thanks everyone so very very much!0 -
Mad Dog_2 said:Have you called your Insurance agent about Homeowners insurance policy? Maybe, they can get involved and cover this? Mad Dog 🐕
This is a very good question! I don't think so though. I think it's a builder or product liability-if we can find the culprit and prove its causing us ill health.0 -
Scary neighbors, we have some and have considered this, only because our symptoms are extreme with no cause to be found. If our symptoms progress any further we will be going to the ER again, but this time will be more insistent about testing. I truly wish I had been admitted the first time. They turned me away when I was having tremors.Mad Dog_2 said:Chlordane was a great termite killer but Cancer ♋ causing, but if your house is built in last 30 years that should not be the issue. You need to go to the closest big city Hospital 🏥 and insist on a full blood work up for all occupants. There are great Country Doctors but they are not usually seeing all the wild cases a big city Hospital will. They also have state of the art tests. Yes, ANY detector is better than none. Get a Radon detector.
I have a client that also had a vicious neighbor trying to poison her. People are crazier than ever...Mad Dog 🐕0 -
It's your body, health, and Life. No one knows it better than you. Sometimes, you've got to really dig your heels in with Doctors and they'll relent and just do it to get you off they're back AND cover themselves just in case. Quick story: August 1971. Saratoga Lake, New York. I am 4 years old. I call for Mama, Colleen (RIP) from the open floor bedroom (Small Cabin).."Mommy...my legs 🦵 really hurt and I can't stand up!!" My mother was a ravenous reader who read till 1am every night in bed. She ran in to the room and asked me a few questions. Rheumatic Fever!! She believed.
The cabin had no telephone, washer and dryer, and she had no car. My father, Bart III was working at the Racetrack. She carried me 100 yards down the hill and got Pete Russo, owner of the property overlooking the lake. Pete, a father of 6 and WW II Combat Vet of the Battle of the Bulge. drove us to Saratoga hospital in town.
They took me in quickly, a younger Doctor, 30ish, Mom's age, examined me. He downplayed the symptoms and poo poo'd
Mom's Rheumatic Fever fear. "Its probably just "growing pains...give him St Joey's Aspirin! ."
He wanted to dismiss us. My mother was not having it..she demanded an older and more experienced doctor. They got him. He was more thorough, but was still skeptical. Mom was not leaving. "What do you suggest we do?" Mama Bear; "I really believe he's got symptoms of Rheumatic Fever and I want you to give him Penicillin!!! The older Doctor relented. My symptoms cleared up in like 12 hours.
When we got back down back home to Howard Beach, after the Horseracing month of August, Mom brought me to our beloved family Doctor & Family Treasure, Dr. Blumenfeld. He had delivered my mother and 2 brothers AND us 3 kids! He examined me and I think took blood. He called my mom with the results, like the next day. "Colleen, my dear, you're a good mother and a smart cookie 🍪. Matthew had the beginnings of Rheumatic Fever and another 12 hours without The Penicillin was going to end of with heart ❤ and other damage. You made the right call and I commend you for standing up to the doctor. We are all only human and miss things sometimes.!"
Moral of the Story...Advocate for yourself and your family 👪 like only a Mama Bear can!! Mad Dog 🐕
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@alise, you asked about a refrigerant leak detector. Is there central AC in the house? If so, was the system and the ductwork checked? Where I am, after a new build, a duct cleaning company comes in and vacuums everything. Somebody could've left a ham and Swiss on rye with heavy mayo in the branch duct to the living room.
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I was inquiring about refridgerant because our symptoms match up with toxicity. We have ac but it's never been used yet (new house, pnw is cool right now). I was considering a leak in the refrigerator or old fridge in the garageHVACNUT said:@alise, you asked about a refrigerant leak detector. Is there central AC in the house? If so, was the system and the ductwork checked? Where I am, after a new build, a duct cleaning company comes in and vacuums everything. Somebody could've left a ham and Swiss on rye with heavy mayo in the branch duct to the0 -
Thank you very much for the push and for the sweet story of your tenacious mama. I needed that. I appreciate your thoughtfulness concerning our problem.Mad Dog_2 said:It's your body, health, and Life. No one knows it better than you. Sometimes, you've got to really dig your heels in with Doctors and they'll relent and just do it to get you off they're back AND cover themselves just in case. Quick story: August 1971. Saratoga Lake, New York. I am 4 years old. I call for Mama, Colleen (RIP) from the open floor bedroom (Small Cabin).."Mommy...my legs 🦵 really hurt and I can't stand up!!" My mother was a ravenous reader who read till 1am every night in bed. She ran in to the room and asked me a few questions. Rheumatic Fever!! She believed.
The cabin had no telephone, washer and dryer, and she had no car. My father, Bart III was working at the Racetrack. She carried me 100 yards down the hill and got Pete Russo, owner of the property overlooking the lake. Pete, a father of 6 and WW II Combat Vet of the Battle of the Bulge. drove us to Saratoga hospital in town.
They took me in quickly, a younger Doctor, 30ish, Mom's age, examined me. He downplayed the symptoms and poo poo'd
Mom's Rheumatic Fever fear. "Its probably just "growing pains...give him St Joey's Aspirin! ."
He wanted to dismiss us. My mother was not having it..she demanded an older and more experienced doctor. They got him. He was more thorough, but was still skeptical. Mom was not leaving. "What do you suggest we do?" Mama Bear; "I really believe he's got symptoms of Rheumatic Fever and I want you to give him Penicillin!!! The older Doctor relented. My symptoms cleared up in like 12 hours.
When we got back down back home to Howard Beach, after the Horseracing month of August, Mom brought me to our beloved family Doctor & Family Treasure, Dr. Blumenfeld. He had delivered my mother and 2 brothers AND us 3 kids! He examined me and I think took blood. He called my mom with the results, like the next day. "Colleen, my dear, you're a good mother and a smart cookie 🍪. Matthew had the beginnings of Rheumatic Fever and another 12 hours without The Penicillin was going to end of with heart ❤ and other damage. You made the right call and I commend you for standing up to the doctor. We are all only human and miss things sometimes.!"
Moral of the Story...Advocate for yourself and your family 👪 like only a Mama Bear can!! Mad Dog 🐕
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I didn't respond to your other question..our ducts should have been cleaned. It's not stand procedure here. We are getting them cleaned in a few week. They do have lots of construction dust that we had no idea was in then.HVACNUT said:@alise, you asked about a refrigerant leak detector. Is there central AC in the house? If so, was the system and the ductwork checked? Where I am, after a new build, a duct cleaning company comes in and vacuums everything. Somebody could've left a ham and Swiss on rye with heavy mayo in the branch duct to the living room.0 -
City water or private well? What was on the land before your home was built?0
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That's good. Very low risk with that. Fall is coming. Good time of the year to air out the house with open windows.
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When we had inspection of our crawlspace one inspector noted an effervescent liquid in a few spots. No longer there now. Should this be suspect?Jamie Hall said:I might add -- while some of your symptoms do sound like low level CO, there are several lamentably common volatile organic compounds used as solvents which can and do end up in ground water and soil and can vapoourize in, for instance, basements which have even more similar symptoms (I'm particularly thinking of trichloroethane, tetrachloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and a few others in that group).1 -
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Browsing the web the other night I found something which may help you. I figured that since you mentioned Vanderbilt University that you were near there. Vanderbilt does have an Occupational Heath Clinic but it is only for faculty and staff. None the less I am hoping someone there can direct you to some local folks who can help you. The Staff web page, https://www.vumc.org/health-wellness/person/occupational-health-clinic-staff, doesn't give their email addresses but looking at some other pages I was able to figure out that the format of the email addresses is first name.last name@vumc.org. I would start out by emailing the Medical Director of the clinic asking her if she knows of someone local who can help you with your sick building syndrome.1
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Wow, thank you so so much for this lead. We moved to a relatives home near Vanderbilt after fleeing our house in Washington. We are now back in house where same health issues are happening. I will contact and see if they have any information or referrals. Thank you again, very thoughtful of you! We are close to having to leave again.CLamb said:Browsing the web the other night I found something which may help you. I figured that since you mentioned Vanderbilt University that you were near there. Vanderbilt does have an Occupational Heath Clinic but it is only for faculty and staff. None the less I am hoping someone there can direct you to some local folks who can help you. The Staff web page, https://www.vumc.org/health-wellness/person/occupational-health-clinic-staff, doesn't give their email addresses but looking at some other pages I was able to figure out that the format of the email addresses is first name.last name@vumc.org. I would start out by emailing the Medical Director of the clinic asking her if she knows of someone local who can help you with your sick building syndrome.0 -
Some of your symptoms are common with those that some people have who live close to wind turbines.
Any of those within sight? Not everyone near the turbines have those, if any symptoms.0 -
Thank you for asking, we fortunately do not live near any wind turbines. I appreciate you asking. I feel sorry for anyone experiencing the symptoms from wind turbines. I'm sure it would be difficult to figure out.JUGHNE said:Some of your symptoms are common with those that some people have who live close to wind turbines. Any of those within sight? Not everyone near the turbines have those, if any symptoms.
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It's so thoughtful of you to check in. We had a specialist from hvac come out on Monday. He spent 4 hours looking for carbon monoxide/gases. He ran and tested all of our gas appliances. He checked everything outdoors as well. He was so sure he would find something based on our symptoms but the only thing that set off his monitor was the tap water when it was running, he had been running hot tap to work up the hot water heater and it was an off chance discovery.
My symptoms have been extreme, I was getting ready to go to ER this morning but then a few hours of waiting I felt well enough to put it off. Not sure it would lead to any discovery for the source of our toxin.
I've been out of the house and will be seeking temporary housing.
I might go to ER tomorrow morning if I feel as bad as I did this morning. Can anyone suggest what type of testing I might request? I also have a doctors appointment on Friday.
Can anyone comment on if the water might be a problem? The tech had no understanding of why water would set off his meter. He recommended having the water tested, but im not sure where I would get this type of testing. Should I call water company? I have been calling various hygenists to find out. Hopefully someone returns my call.
Thanks to everyone trying to help. I really appreciate it 🙏
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Do you know which meter was triggered by the hot water? Carbon Monoxide? Was the meter triggered by the water or while the water was running? Did he try shutting power to the water heater and then testing the water? Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!0
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STEAM DOCTOR said:Do you know which meter was triggered by the hot water? Carbon Monoxide? Was the meter triggered by the water or while the water was running? Did he try shutting power to the water heater and then testing the water? Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!
I was so sick when he was here, I don't recall what meter was triggered by the water. I will give him a call tomorrow and inquire. He did not shut off the water heater and retest! I can't believe I didn't think of trying that. He should have as well. I will ask him that as well. Good call.0 -
In my previous career we had some professional O2/CO/H2S/Explosive meters, for going into underground splice chambers etc.alise said:Can anyone comment on if the water might be a problem? The tech had no understanding of why water would set off his meter. He recommended having the water tested, but im not sure where I would get this type of testing.
We were shown how other chems/gases can have a cross-effect on the sensors inside the meters we were using. For instance, the CO could read something when there was no CO but rather one of these other chemicals.
Its a red flag , and if you were on a well I would be quite suspicious of that. But I believe you said city water.. so other people in the area would be reacting to it, if the water itself was suspect.
Would he be open to returning and testing at the faucet when just cold is running vs hot ?
If its something relating to the water heater, your highest dose would likely be during showers where you are misting a lot of water near your head in a closed room. A test for personal reaction could be switching to baths, with the window cracked open and the bathroom fan turned on.
30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
Currently in building maintenance.1 -
Hi, Is there anything in this heater that could leach into the water? Seems a long shot. Tank-type heaters produce hydrogen gas with their anodes, but I'm not aware of anything in a tankless that is comparable.
I'm wondering if contacting a national lab, like Lawrence Berkeley Labs could yield some useful information. They have done a huge amount of research into indoor air quality and would probably be a good resource.
Yours, Larry0 -
Thank you Larry, I haven't been able to reach the man who did our inspection yet. I will mention hydrogen gas to him when we speak, also I will try to contact Lawrence berkley. Just a quick look at their website, I'm not seeing who I could contact. This is becoming very overwhelming physically and emotionally. I spend all day contacting various professionals, that leads to no real direction or leads. Cost for testing to find the needle in haystack, like soil is really expensive. We think maybe we were chemically damaged by something (everything) in the new home and now our bodies are over reacting to all chemicals. Our daughter stays here periodically and has no reactions, but she's not in home for long periods of time.Larry Weingarten said:Hi, Is there anything in this heater that could leach into the water? Seems a long shot. Tank-type heaters produce hydrogen gas with their anodes, but I'm not aware of anything in a tankless that is comparable. I'm wondering if contacting a national lab, like Lawrence Berkeley Labs could yield some useful information. They have done a huge amount of research into indoor air quality and would probably be a good resource. Yours, Larry
My doctor is running lots of tests for various chemicals.
The carpet makes me suspicious because it makes my feet burn.
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Thank you for offering this insight Dave. Yes, we are on city water. I'm going to contact the city on Monday. I wish I would have thought to try various scenarios with the water while the tech was here. I doubt he would be able to come back without charging us. Could there be enough gas coming through our water to affect us so extremely and cause ringing in ears and other neurological symptoms?Dave Carpentier said:Can anyone comment on if the water might be a problem? The tech had no understanding of why water would set off his meter. He recommended having the water tested, but im not sure where I would get this type of testing.
In my previous career we had some professional O2/CO/H2S/Explosive meters, for going into underground splice chambers etc. We were shown how other chems/gases can have a cross-effect on the sensors inside the meters we were using. For instance, the CO could read something when there was no CO but rather one of these other chemicals. Its a red flag , and if you were on a well I would be quite suspicious of that. But I believe you said city water.. so other people in the area would be reacting to it, if the water itself was suspect. Would he be open to returning and testing at the faucet when just cold is running vs hot ? If its something relating to the water heater, your highest dose would likely be during showers where you are misting a lot of water near your head in a closed room. A test for personal reaction could be switching to baths, with the window cracked open and the bathroom fan turned on.0 -
I also want to comment that we have almost all windows open during the day as we'll as two corsi rosenthal fans running. Fresh air most definitely helps with our symptoms.Dave Carpentier said:Can anyone comment on if the water might be a problem? The tech had no understanding of why water would set off his meter. He recommended having the water tested, but im not sure where I would get this type of testing.
In my previous career we had some professional O2/CO/H2S/Explosive meters, for going into underground splice chambers etc. We were shown how other chems/gases can have a cross-effect on the sensors inside the meters we were using. For instance, the CO could read something when there was no CO but rather one of these other chemicals. Its a red flag , and if you were on a well I would be quite suspicious of that. But I believe you said city water.. so other people in the area would be reacting to it, if the water itself was suspect. Would he be open to returning and testing at the faucet when just cold is running vs hot ? If its something relating to the water heater, your highest dose would likely be during showers where you are misting a lot of water near your head in a closed room. A test for personal reaction could be switching to baths, with the window cracked open and the bathroom fan turned on.
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Hi, Just brainstorming a bit, but as you have the fans, maybe having the dust caught on the filters tested could show something interesting. It could be a concentrated source of the toxic/s you've been exposed to, so easier to figure out what's there.
Yours, Larry0 -
It may also be a Pavlovian type of reaction where your merely being the house triggers the symptoms.alise said:We think maybe we were chemically damaged by something (everything) in the new home and now our bodies are over reacting to all chemicals. Our daughter stays here periodically and has no reactions, but she's not in home for long periods of time.
My doctor is running lots of tests for various chemicals.
The carpet makes me suspicious because it makes my feet burn.
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CLamb said:
We think maybe we were chemically damaged by something (everything) in the new home and now our bodies are over reacting to all chemicals. Our daughter stays here periodically and has no reactions, but she's not in home for long periods of time.
It may also be a Pavlovian type of reaction where your merely being the house triggers
My doctor is running lots of tests for various chemicals.
The carpet makes me suspicious because it makes my feet burn.
Oh brother.0 -
That's a thought. We just built the fan/filters a few weeks ago, no dust build up yet but perhaps a piece could be cut out. My roomba however captures a pile of dust daily. When I spoke with the hygenist he pointed out that since we have a new build there are going to be lots of toxins in the air and dust. He said anytime he ran into someone with symptoms as extreme as ours it was always carbon monoxide. He didn't want to waste our money with various testing, suggested blood tests might be more tellingLarry Weingarten said:Hi, Just brainstorming a bit, but as you have the fans, maybe having the dust caught on the filters tested could show something interesting. It could be a concentrated source of the toxic/s you've been exposed to, so easier to figure out what's there. Yours, Larry0
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