Navien hot water heater toxic gases?

alise

New build house, two weeks after my husband and I moved in both our ears started ringing. Same day. We searched hard for source of sound and didn't find anything. Fast forward another two weeks and we both feel very mild vibrations in our body, and we're feeling off, like anxiety and we can't think as clearly. Nothing crazy but we notice symptoms disappear if we are out of house for 24hrs. So we have multiple people come to check on heater, water heater, all appliances for gas, carbon monoxide ect. Nothing was found. Fast forward two months and we are seriously feeling like we have to leave our house. When had been waking up in the morning for a few weeks with our pulses racing, up to 130 that lasted hours. We checked into a hotel and for three days I had full body tremors that were so bad I could not sleep. I went to ER and nothing was found. We moved in with relative for 6 months while we recovered (took 3/4 months to feel well during this time i could hardly do anything) We had the house checked from top to bottom for various things like air quality. Nothing but mild mold in crawlspace, which we had sanded and treated. We moved back in 3 weeks ago and right away our ears were ringing, another week later the mild body vibrations kicked in . The strangest thing is that our symptoms have always had an on/off quality. Our symptoms are simultaneously low /high same days. I wonder if it could possibly be from navien hot water heater? We're not running hvac for heat or a/c .

 If anyone has any thoughts or ideas we would love your help. Other strange symptoms, rare occasions of flashes of light in our heads while sleeping, also we felt like our legs were being electrocuted while we slept, all night long.

Thanks 

Mad Dog_2

This is horrifying.  Get out NOW ... until this is figured out.  Your home needs a very thorough exam by Fire Dept, Bldg Dept, an expert Carbon Monoxide analyst, seasoned  Plumbing and heating professional.  Navien Field Rep. ANY fuel burning appliance can produce toxic gas, CO, Et cetera, So, don't necessarily blame the Navien unit....have that throughly examined and tested like A fuel burning appliance in your home..  stoves,, gas fireplaces, Gas dryers, water heaters,, attached garage..idling cars in the garage....You need to look at EVERYTHING   YOU also all need your blood tested and carboxyhemoglobin levels assessed. 

 You're symptoms are very suspect...Carbon Monoxide poisoning???  Check Find a Contractor feature here.  Many of us are very experienced and trained in Carbon Monoxide leak detection and emelioration...NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE...Ill leave you with this.  Invest in Low level Carbon Monoxide Detectors ASAP.  They detect much faster AND at lower levels than the plug in the hardware & box stores sell.  Also more accurate than Hard Wired detectors.  National Comfort Institute in Ohio has the best ones I have found...$200 bucks each, I have 4 in my home...$1000.00 bucks every 5 years...Still cheaper than one funeral.  Right?  Good luck keep us posted.  Do NOT let anyone discount your symptoms or hunches.That ringing & humming could be a separate harmonics issue with the unit or something else.in the house....Mad Dog 🐕 

HVACNUT

Those eight symptoms; ears ringing, vibrations in body, anxiety, poor concentration, high pulse rate, full body tremors, flashes of light in your head, electrocuted legs, are extremely obscure in any circumstance and a good doctor should be able to lead you and your husband in the right direction.  

Derheatmeister

Mad Dog_2 said:

This is horrifying.  Get out NOW ... until this is figured out.  Your home needs a very thorough exam by Fire Dept, Bldg Dept, an expert Carbon Monoxide analyst, seasoned  Plumbing and heating professional.  Navien Field Rep. ANY fuel burning appliance can produce toxic gas, CO, Et cetera, So, don't necessarily blame the Navien unit....have that throughly examined and tested like A fuel burning appliance in your home..  stoves,, gas fireplaces, Gas dryers, water heaters,, attached garage..idling cars in the garage....You need to look at EVERYTHING   YOU also all need your blood tested and carboxyhemoglobin levels assessed. 

 You're symptoms are very suspect...Carbon Monoxide poisoning???  Check Find a Contractor feature here.  Many of us are very experienced and trained in Carbon Monoxide leak detection and emelioration...NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE...Ill leave you with this.  Invest in Low level Carbon Monoxide Detectors ASAP.  They detect much faster AND at lower levels than the plug in the hardware & box stores sell.  Also more accurate than Hard Wired detectors.  National Comfort Institute in Ohio has the best ones I have found...$200 bucks each, I have 4 in my home...$1000.00 bucks every 5 years...Still cheaper than one funeral.  Right?  Good luck keep us posted.  Do NOT let anyone discount your symptoms or hunches.That ringing & humming could be a separate harmonics issue with the unit or something else.in the house....Mad Dog 🐕 

National Comfort Institute does not sell to the public ! ... One must be Certified to purchase and install the NCI low level "Monitors" they offer.
BTW...No Pricing on this site.

Derheatmeister

As Mad Dog_2 said GET OUT.

Call someone that has the proper training and is certified if you suspect Carbon Monoxide.
Sorry if i am bias but since i am Certified by NCI i would call NCI to locate a certified technician in your area.
If it is Carbon Monoxide they should be able to locate the source and make recommendations

http://nationalcomfortinstitute.com/.

STEAM DOCTOR

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Kidde-21009942-KN-COU-B-Ultra-Sensitive-AA-Battery-Powered-Carbon-Monoxide-Monitor

STEAM DOCTOR

Wow. My sympathies to you and I hope this gets resolved soon. Just a total shot in the dark. Maybe something electrical related. Like low levels of stray electricity. 

STEAM DOCTOR

As far as I know, CO will show up in blood. I would hope that your doctors or the hospital tested for that.

STEAM DOCTOR

Any neighbors have any issues?

Mad Dog_2

I know this Heatmeister,  but at 3am in the Morning, I wasn't worried or thinking about  rules.  Just quick, accurate answers to avert a possible tragedy. Yes, you need to get them through a Dealer.  Heat meister will hook you up. If he can't I can make an arrangement.   Please keep us posted. We care.  Mad Dog 🐕 

STEAM DOCTOR

Something in the food or water?

Jon_blaney

Watch the Mikey Pipes Navien videos on Youtube.

Derheatmeister

Mad Dog_2 said:

I know this Heatmeister,  but at 3am in the Morning, I wasn't worried or thinking about  rules.  Just quick, accurate answers to avert a possible tragedy. Yes, you need to get them through a Dealer.  Heat meister will hook you up. If he can't I can make an arrangement.   Please keep us posted. We care.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Yes we do care and thank you Mad Dog
Another good 5 year Low level monitor avaible to the public is the Defender LL6170.

STEAM DOCTOR

Was the navian running while you're experiencing these symptoms? Sounds like you have a separate water heater. If the navian was not running, then it is unlikely to be the cause of your symptoms.

Jamie Hall

As the good folks up there have suggested, possibly CO. But... quite possibly not. One thing to do right away -- move away and stay away. Relatives, whatever, but get out of Dodge. The next step (and quickly after you move out, as the problem may be transient as it seems to resolve (?) when you are not there for a while, get a thorough workup from a team of doctors, including at the very least some blood chemisry folks and a neurologist. Then consider that the problem may be some other environmental contaminant, possibly in the house but possibly in the yard. You -- or someone -- may need to hire a firm (don't count on you public health people -- good people, but you're out of their league) specializing in environmental assessment. They will go over the property -- gas and atmospheric analyses, soil analyses, water analyses -- with a fine tooth comb. Assisted by whatever the medicos find, they may come up with something. Which may be fixable...

However, all this is going to cost much dollars. I dislike lawyers as a class, but good ones are very useful, and you need one to figure out who or what may be responsible and see about what to do. Especially if there is found to be soil or water contamination, you may have a good case against previous owners or title insurance companies.

Mad Dog_2

Check for Radon and soil contamination too.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Erin Holohan Haskell

@alise, I've merged your duplicate posts into one here to prevent confusion. I hope you're able to get to the bottom of what's causing your illness.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't have a clue except Navien seems to have many issues.


I would suggest trying an Industrial Hygienist.

Jamie Hall

I might add -- while some of your symptoms do sound like low level CO, there are several lamentably common volatile organic compounds used as solvents which can and do end up in ground water and soil and can vapoourize in, for instance, basements which have even more similar symptoms (I'm particularly thinking of trichloroethane, tetrachloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and a few others in that group).

Larry Weingarten

Hi @alise , I don't know if they can help, but have a look here: https://haywardinstitute.org/ and get in touch with them. They have a holistic approach to healthy buildings, looking at multiple possible causes of trouble. I agree with everyone who has suggested you stay out of the building. The more your bodies are hurt by whatever is going on there, the harder it will be to recover. You shouldn't need to be your own lab rats.

Yous, Larry

Mad Dog_2

The humming troubles me...Is that a fam motor or tinnitus? Mad Dog 🐕 

CLamb

It may be hard finding a physician who will be persistent enough to find the root cause of your symptoms. I find physicians on the staff of a medical school or research institute are the best to work on difficult cases.

Mad Dog_2

Any updates from OP?  It always troubles me when there's long pauses from them or you never hear what happened.  Mad Dog 🐕 

alise

Mad Dog_2 said:

This is horrifying.  Get out NOW ... until this is figured out.  Your home needs a very thorough exam by Fire Dept, Bldg Dept, an expert Carbon Monoxide analyst, seasoned  Plumbing and heating professional.  Navien Field Rep. ANY fuel burning appliance can produce toxic gas, CO, Et cetera, So, don't necessarily blame the Navien unit....have that throughly examined and tested like A fuel burning appliance in your home..  stoves,, gas fireplaces, Gas dryers, water heaters,, attached garage..idling cars in the garage....You need to look at EVERYTHING   YOU also all need your blood tested and carboxyhemoglobin levels assessed. 

 You're symptoms are very suspect...Carbon Monoxide poisoning???  Check Find a Contractor feature here.  Many of us are very experienced and trained in Carbon Monoxide leak detection and emelioration...NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE...Ill leave you with this.  Invest in Low level Carbon Monoxide Detectors ASAP.  They detect much faster AND at lower levels than the plug in the hardware & box stores sell.  Also more accurate than Hard Wired detectors.  National Comfort Institute in Ohio has the best ones I have found...$200 bucks each, I have 4 in my home...$1000.00 bucks every 5 years...Still cheaper than one funeral.  Right?  Good luck keep us posted.  Do NOT let anyone discount your symptoms or hunches.That ringing & humming could be a separate harmonics issue with the unit or something else.in the house....Mad Dog 🐕 

Thank you for taking the time to so kindly respond and to everyone who responded. Im so touched that people care. We are at our wits end and scared, people just dont understand. So last night we turned off the navien. This morning when I woke up there was a distinct chemical smell (not gas) coming from the garage. The navien sits 3 ft from back door. I opened the door and the smell was even  stronger in the area where navien is. Called gas company right away. (This is fourth time we have called for checks on  carbon monoxide/gas. Fire company, gas company, hvac instal company and fireplace company have been out to test.)  Today we had scheduled a carpet cleaning by a truck mounted truck that happened to set up right before the gas company employee showed up. When he tested  his meter went off alot and he said  results were skewed as the truck gas exhaust sets off the sensor. The inspector said to call back if we smell anything tomorrow. We will.
 Do I still need a sensitive detector if no one found carbon monoxide when our symptoms were at their worst? The smell we smell in the garage now is quite strong, a smell I've never encountered. We called the company that installed the navien unit for the 5th time today and they said wait for gas company results. They've been out to check it twice before.
Does turning off the navien increase some toxins is something is wrong with it, say a valve? 
About our ringing ears, it's definitely not an actual sound. We tried for months to track down sound with spectroid meters and found nothing. After we fled our home in February our ears rang for a month loudly before decresing and we still had minor ringing when we moved back in that ramped up a few days after we were in the house. 
I will be back tomorrow to respond to other posts. It's been a long day, no sleep

HVACNUT

As I'm sure you know, CO is odorless, but yes, get some low level detectors anyway. 

The exhaust from the carpet cleaning truck threw off the gas detector? Did the guy from the gas company smell anything? Did the carpet people smell anything?

"This morning when I woke up there was a distinct chemical smell (not gas) coming from the garage." 
How much stuff is in the garage? Is it 3 bare walls and a door, or floor to ceiling stuff? If it was pinpointed to the garage, then it should be able to get narrowed down. Not that you should do the search yourself due to the effects, but with what you're describing, it shouldn't be too hard. Maybe there's dogs or something trained in this type of thing.

Mad Dog_2

Thank you for the update. We do care very much. I cannot caution you enough...do not accept these "exams" of the home and the equipment on their face. I/we have seen this over and over. Carbon Monoxide issues can be VERY tricky to catch, diagnose and repair. It often falls between the cracks. Firemen 🚒 have excellent personal CO monitors that detect CO and combustible gases at very low ppm. They also have excellent "sniffers" to pinpoint the source of CO or gas leak.  

However, this is where the chasm lies:

Very few plumbers, boiler guys or HVAC companies are trained or have the experience to diagnose and mitigate the CO-producing appliances' issues. For one, the Combustion analyzer can cost a Few grand. When I took my CO Boot Camp with the Great Jim Davis of NCI & Al D'Ambola (RIP my friend) almost 25 yrs ago, we were 1% percenters among out peers. I knew NO ONE else in our chapter PHCC (one of the largest nationally) who owned one..R.S.English , my old boss, All Island Radiant today.  

Reach out to Jim Davis, The CO Legend. He goes by @captainco here. He will bring you up to speed fast and how to handle this. And, yes, Get the low level CO detectors. I don't care where you get them...I don't know of a competitor or better unit you can buy. Thats why I'm urging you to get them. I own 4..one for each level of my house. These puppies pick up trave levels of CO all the time...car idling in the driveways, cooking...super sensitive.

By the way, where is this situation occurring?? Someone very knowledgeable from The Wall might be nearby to help you. Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

I think the installers are CRAZY.... If I had installed a unit that's even QUESTIONABLE, 
I'm tearing it apart completely, ONCE.  If its still cagey, I am physically removing it from the home and providing a safe, temporary heating & hot water solution until its figured out.  Dont let anyone assauge your worry, concerns or symptoms.  It sounds like you just haven't found the right CO "Detective" yet.  Mad Dog 

Dave Carpentier

Is it feasible to ventilate the crawlspace ?
Mold at less than a year after construction would have me looking at that (in addition to the CO). That's a flag to ventilate.
As posted above, radon (a radioactive gas) is possible. It rises up from underground, and would collect in the crawlspace and rise up into the house.

Mad Dog_2

She needs a seasoned CO Pro in there first to eliminate that as a source.  If that's clear get an environmental engineering company Haz Mat team in there to look in to Radon, stachhibotris, et al.   I've yet to see or come across an "expert" that can do ALL that and cover all bases down to the minute details.  Wish I knew what State, City, Town...we could atkeast Trianagulate on a Pro to help her.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

I'm still not at all convinced that the problem is CO. Not At All. Nor am I convinced that it is the Navien. The tell -- for me -- is this sentence "This morning when I woke up there was a distinct chemical smell (not gas) coming from the garage. ", @alise . We all -- not least me! -- tend to get a bit of tunnel vision when there is an unknown problem, and in the heating business we tend to focus on CO for a very good reason. But, as I mentioned earlier, what I'm reading sounds to me more like any one of a variety of chlorinated volatile organic compounds, many of which are more or less commonly available (some aren't) and many of which have unfortunate effects -- such as the ones you are experiencing -- at remarkably low levels.

What is worse, is the conventional and easily available combustible gas or CO detectors -- even the best of them -- are completely insensitive to them. You really, please, need to get a professional firm in there which specializes in haz-mat evaluation and remediation to find out what that chemical smell is and figure out what to do about it.

Please...

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Wow. My sympathies to you and I hope this gets resolved soon. Just a total shot in the dark. Maybe something electrical related. Like low levels of stray electricity. 

So, yes, after we had fire co, gas Co, hvac Co test and find no trace of carbon monoxide we suspected stray voltage/electricity. The shocking electrial sensations in our legs while sleeping were the most disturbing and curious symptom, we felt our health deteriorate after every night we endured these.

We had the power company out three times to check the transformer and open neutrals. Nothong found. We contacted several experts seasoned in the field of ditections and mitigation of stray voltage and none had encountered our particular set of symptoms, but they recommended adding supplemental ground rods to our existing ufer.

Last week we hired a forensic electrician do some minor testing (we could only afford a few hours work).  They also recommend supplemental ground rods. Those will be placed next week. We're not sure what he found, still awaiting the report.

 I searched for months online to find anyone with similar symptoms and could find none. Possibly ringing in ears as a symptom, but nothing that would crash one's health so severely as what happened to me. 

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

As far as I know, CO will show up in blood. I would hope that your doctors or the hospital tested for that.

I am considering going to ER again if I feel like I did before however from what I understand CO would need to be tested within hours. My last visit to ER for this situation I waited 8 hrs to be seen. I don't believe I was tested for CO last time. I believe I had basic organ functions tested for toxin overloads. Nothing out of the ordinary was found. The Er doctor suggested it could be our carpets. 
We just had our carpets professionally cleaned yesterday, applying extra high heat and mulled passes. 

alise

Derheatmeister said:

As Mad Dog_2 said GET OUT. Call someone that has the proper training and is certified if you suspect Carbon Monoxide. Sorry if i am bias but since i am Certified by NCI i would call NCI to locate a certified technician in your area. If it is Carbon Monoxide they should be able to locate the source and make recommendations http://nationalcomfortinstitute.com/.

Thank you! I will look into this. Can you tell me, if the fire CO and gas CO have already come out should I still pursue trying to find it?

alise

HVACNUT said:

Those eight symptoms; ears ringing, vibrations in body, anxiety, poor concentration, high pulse rate, full body tremors, flashes of light in your head, electrocuted legs, are extremely obscure in any circumstance and a good doctor should be able to lead you and your husband in the right direction.  

I have been to four doctors none were able to find anything. I was directed to contact Vanderbilt. All the doctors I contacted informed me they would not be able to do forensic tests for my situation. To be seen by a forensic neurologist would rquire months of waiting for visits from lower level doctors who are needed to approve an appointment. 
I'm seeing a new doctor in few weeks

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Any neighbors have any issues?

No, they don't. Probably think we are crazy 

alise

Mad Dog_2 said:

This is horrifying.  Get out NOW ... until this is figured out.  Your home needs a very thorough exam by Fire Dept, Bldg Dept, an expert Carbon Monoxide analyst, seasoned  Plumbing and heating professional.  Navien Field Rep. ANY fuel burning appliance can produce toxic gas, CO, Et cetera, So, don't necessarily blame the Navien unit....have that throughly examined and tested like A fuel burning appliance in your home..  stoves,, gas fireplaces, Gas dryers, water heaters,, attached garage..idling cars in the garage....You need to look at EVERYTHING   YOU also all need your blood tested and carboxyhemoglobin levels assessed. 

 You're symptoms are very suspect...Carbon Monoxide poisoning???  Check Find a Contractor feature here.  Many of us are very experienced and trained in Carbon Monoxide leak detection and emelioration...NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE...Ill leave you with this.  Invest in Low level Carbon Monoxide Detectors ASAP.  They detect much faster AND at lower levels than the plug in the hardware & box stores sell.  Also more accurate than Hard Wired detectors.  National Comfort Institute in Ohio has the best ones I have found...$200 bucks each, I have 4 in my home...$1000.00 bucks every 5 years...Still cheaper than one funeral.  Right?  Good luck keep us posted.  Do NOT let anyone discount your symptoms or hunches.That ringing & humming could be a separate harmonics issue with the unit or something else.in the house....Mad Dog 🐕 

We have no place to go right now. We are working hard to figure this out asap. We will of course be forced out if things get anywhere near where they were before we left. Thank you so much for your concern and info. 
When gas CO came yesterday he said if we had a sensitive meter it would be going off all the time,.like his was from the carpet cleaning truck. 
So if we had fire company out before and they found nothing should we call them out again?
If we have gas line in the attic (or crawlspace) and walls should those be checked as well or will a Co detector pick up other leaks? When they came before they checked all obvious appliances. 
How much should we spend for someone to come to investigate. Did you mean to include a link to specialist? I live in Ferdale WA. 

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Kidde-21009942-KN-COU-B-Ultra-Sensitive-AA-Battery-Powered-Carbon-Monoxide-Monitor

Is this sensitive enough? We placed our indoor Carbon monoxide sensor next to navien and hvac in the garage. It hasn't gone off

ethicalpaul

Yes it's ultra-sensitive, down to 10 ppm.

alise

Mad Dog_2 said:

I know this Heatmeister,  but at 3am in the Morning, I wasn't worried or thinking about  rules.  Just quick, accurate answers to avert a possible tragedy. Yes, you need to get them through a Dealer.  Heat meister will hook you up. If he can't I can make an arrangement.   Please keep us posted. We care.  Mad Dog 🐕 

So very thoughtful of you, I really appreciate all the concern and thoughtful responses. I'm so thankful to have found this forum. 
How much should I spend for a sensitive meter? The gas company employee said these will be going off all the time. How will i know when to be alarmed if they are so sensitive?
.

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Something in the food or water?

Not that I can tell. I just started buying bottled water this week, just in case.

alise

Jon_blaney said:

Watch the Mikey Pipes Navien videos on Youtube.

Any particular videos you would recommend for our situation? I haven't heard of him. Thank you!