Navien hot water heater toxic gases?

alise

Derheatmeister said:

I know this Heatmeister,  but at 3am in the Morning, I wasn't worried or thinking about  rules.  Just quick, accurate answers to avert a possible tragedy. Yes, you need to get them through a Dealer.  Heat meister will hook you up. If he can't I can make an arrangement.   Please keep us posted. We care.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Yes we do care and thank you Mad Dog Another good 5 year Low level monitor avaible to the public is the Defender LL6170.

Thank you! I will look into this model. Where should I place this? In garage with the gas appliances? How close? 
Anyone else here with opinions for inexpensive low level detection monitors? 

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Was the navian running while you're experiencing these symptoms? Sounds like you have a separate water heater. If the navian was not running, then it is unlikely to be the cause of your symptoms.

Yes, we've had the navien running since we moved in. The navien is what heats the water. No other hot water heater.

Jamie Hall

Don't mind me. I used to do haz-mat for a living...

Larry Weingarten

Hi, This may sound slightly fringe, but in the interests of eliminating possibilities, are you able to turn off all power to the house overnight? EMFs are a concern for some, and if having power off allows sleep that's different from what you are experiencing now, that would be a useful clue.

Yours, Larry

alise

HVACNUT said:

As I'm sure you know, CO is odorless, but yes, get some low level detectors anyway. 

The exhaust from the carpet cleaning truck threw off the gas detector? Did the guy from the gas company smell anything? Did the carpet people smell anything?

"This morning when I woke up there was a distinct chemical smell (not gas) coming from the garage." 
How much stuff is in the garage? Is it 3 bare walls and a door, or floor to ceiling stuff? If it was pinpointed to the garage, then it should be able to get narrowed down. Not that you should do the search yourself due to the effects, but with what you're describing, it shouldn't be too hard. Maybe there's dogs or something trained in this type of thing.

Everyone who we ask about smells in our house or garage say they smell "new house smell"

alise

Jamie Hall said:

Don't mind me. I used to do haz-mat for a living...

Jamie, your insights have been the most intriguing thus far, I'm having problems responding on my phone, when I've tried to respond to your posts I get quotes from all the other posts that I've responded to. So now Im on my computer. Please excuse me for not responding. I so appreciate your expertise and insights. I think you are on to something!

What's most interesting..the chemicals you mentioned are in paints right? Well, the area where the Navien is located in the garage is also where
the contractors put all of the left over paints. 5 very large containers, four single gallons and lots of little can samples. This is in a pocket space in the garage under a stairwell. This wall that the Navien is on and that the paints are against are shared with the living room. The back door is 3ft from the Navien and paints. I discovered yesterday the door has a quarter inch gap at the foot that hasn't been sealed off/can see light through! I noticed yesterday a backdraft of air from the garage coming through this gap! This door is close to all our living spaces and bedrooms.

My first thought after I opened the door and smelled the strong smell was maybe these paints are the smell?! But really not sure the smell was paint.

I moved all of these paint cans, buckets etc to the opposite side of the garage. Wrapped each one in thick garbage bags. While I was doing this I noticed two of the larger buckets don't seem like paint. They sloshed like a liquid so, I poured samples of those two liquids into bowls. Tried to smell them to compare but after being in the garage for longer than a few minutes I can't make out what smell and what doesn't. They smell like a chemical for sure. The liquid is not a paint, but not clear. Its white-ish. Like maybe some paint thinner that was poured into an empty paint container?

I spent some time looking for other smells. One other thing that was seemingly smelling up garage was a bottle of "Weed b- gone". The spray nozzle had come off, but that happened probably last week after a weeding session.

So last night we turned off the Navien and put a fan in the area where the paint had been. We also are keeping the car out of the garage.
This morning no smells in that area and garage seems almost normal smelling.

Last night however was the worse night of symptoms ever. I thought we might have to leave but I was so exhausted I slept through symptoms of vibrations. Now I wonder if my extreme symptoms were brought on by being in the garage with all the toxins for so long moving the paints, smelling them etc.

Our plan is to keep the Navien off for a few days, keep paints covered, car out of garage and air out garage during the day and see if this helps. We are also going to fix the door gap.

If we are looking to hire someone to investigate how much do you thing this might be and where can we find someone experienced enough? Were at the end of our fund now.

Thank you so so much for your help! Truly!!

alise

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi, This may sound slightly fringe, but in the interests of eliminating possibilities, are you able to turn off all power to the house overnight? EMFs are a concern for some, and if having power off allows sleep that's different from what you are experiencing now, that would be a useful clue.

Yours, Larry

One thing about our symptoms is that the longer we have been in the house the longer they take to recover from. We have turned off power for periods of time, mostly at night. The longest was 24hrs and we did not notice any true changes. When our symptom are bad it feels like there is a force field quality that is truly hard to describe. We never believed in the possibility of EMF until all of this started but we did have someone come and do a little testing. He was our air quality guy so not sure if he's fully versed. He said he didnt find anything. We do have some questionable issues with out electrical system and experts have recommended supplimental ground rods, which we are installing next week.

Jamie Hall

Tetrachloroethylene. Trichloroethylene. 1,1,1-trichloroethne. All used as cleaning and degreasing agents.
Formaldehyde. Disinfectant, but sometimes in insulation and cheap (bargain price) drywall.

Those are the common VOCs off the top of my head.

All neurotoxins. Some people are more susceptible than others. All have long term (days) effects at low concentrations.

Your symptoms are more or less compatible with any of them.

NONE of them are detectable by combustible gas or CO meters, however sensitive they may be.

Mad Dog_2

They go off for a reason.  The very good CO monitors are hyper sensitive and accurate...they should not be ignored.  There was a Dentist on Long Island 🏝 about 10 years ago.  A highly trained medical professional but he had a lapse of common sense.  All of his CO detectors were sounding.  He didn't want this annoyance to wake his sleeping family.  He either took them down and brought outside or pulled the Batteries and went to work. He came home to 4 or 5 dead family members. Mad Dog 🐕 

alise

Jamie Hall said:

As the good folks up there have suggested, possibly CO. But... quite possibly not. One thing to do right away -- move away and stay away. Relatives, whatever, but get out of Dodge. The next step (and quickly after you move out, as the problem may be transient as it seems to resolve (?) when you are not there for a while, get a thorough workup from a team of doctors, including at the very least some blood chemisry folks and a neurologist. Then consider that the problem may be some other environmental contaminant, possibly in the house but possibly in the yard. You -- or someone -- may need to hire a firm (don't count on you public health people -- good people, but you're out of their league) specializing in environmental assessment. They will go over the property -- gas and atmospheric analyses, soil analyses, water analyses -- with a fine tooth comb. Assisted by whatever the medicos find, they may come up with something. Which may be fixable...

However, all this is going to cost much dollars. I dislike lawyers as a class, but good ones are very useful, and you need one to figure out who or what may be responsible and see about what to do. Especially if there is found to be soil or water contamination, you may have a good case against previous owners or title insurance companies.

We have no where to go for now. Spending time away from the house and wearing n95 masks for now.
Ive tried so hard to find doctors to help us and to test. We were turned away from many neurologist and doctors who instructed to try to get in with doctors at Vanderbilt. It took many days and phone calls to finally be told it would months to see a first level doctor who would then be able to approve an appointment with a forensic doctor. So 8 months until we could see a doctor-"if" they approved our case. We didnt make the appointment and were 80% better 3 months after leaving the house. If we had made an appointment I doubt anything would have been found because our symptoms cleared after leaving.

One odd thing that happened after we left our house is that my symptoms became 100% worse about two days after leaving the house. Extreme. For about a week. I really thought I might die. Then the extreme symptoms went away and I spent weeks unable to get out of bed. My husband, however felt much better two days after leaving the house. What if anything can you make of this? I wonder if it points to a particular toxin. Some have commented mold related, that the immune system kicks in after leaving toxic environment.

We don't have any more cash reserves for lawyers and probably not able to afford the environmental assessment. How often have you seen a case like our and what did you usually find to be the cause. We live on land that was sub divided into four lots. No one else has any issues. This is in a neighborhood where we there are only homesteads dating back quite a long time. We did have to bring in structural fill from a company who sent us information- soil type is PGS w/Gravel (source Granite Singer).

We are the original owners, this is a new build. Any resources for specialist would be much appreciated. We live in Ferndale WA

Thank you so much again!!

Dave Carpentier

The voc's as Jamie mentioned are more likely, especially with a new build.

But, if you want to follow up on the radon thing, I like the Airthings devices.
https://www.airthings.com
We have the Wave model , and its nice being able to see (remotely with the app on phone) the current and last day/week/month readings in graph form of radon, temperature and humidity.
Stick one of those in your house or crawlspace for a couple of days and you would have an answer for the radon question.

alise

Jamie Hall said:

I might add -- while some of your symptoms do sound like low level CO, there are several lamentably common volatile organic compounds used as solvents which can and do end up in ground water and soil and can vapoourize in, for instance, basements which have even more similar symptoms (I'm particularly thinking of trichloroethane, tetrachloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and a few others in that group).

Would low level CO issue cause our particular set of symptoms? I responded in my other post about the solvents, and our discovery with the paints. Im wondering though how the smell of the chemicals escaped from these canisters.

As I mentioned the day after I wrapped up all the paints, moved them to the other side of the garage AND turned off the Navien the strong chemical smell went away. Is there a test for the Navien to find out what chemicals it might be giving off? Should the gas pipes to the unit that are in the walls/attic be tested for leaks?

WMno57

Long Covid?

alise

Jamie Hall said:

Tetrachloroethylene. Trichloroethylene. 1,1,1-trichloroethne. All used as cleaning and degreasing agents.
Formaldehyde. Disinfectant, but sometimes in insulation and cheap (bargain price) drywall.

Those are the common VOCs off the top of my head.

All neurotoxins. Some people are more susceptible than others. All have long term (days) effects at low concentrations.

Your symptoms are more or less compatible with any of them.

NONE of them are detectable by combustible gas or CO meters, however sensitive they may be.

Thank you for this list of possible offenders. We think it most strange that our symptoms began on the same day and would stop and start on same days. This is what got us tunnel visioned into possible stray voltage and open neutrals.

Im concerned about the drywall, not that we can say we are reacting to walls but I would love to be able to rule them out. We didnt build on the cheap, pretty sure our builder didnt use bad drywall. Maybe I can find out somehow what was used.

Formaldehyde..our cabinets have been smelly since they were installed almost a year ago and just this week their smell has decreased enough for me to be able to detect the chemical smell that was backdrafting in from the garage.
What about subfloors? Any bad chemicals in those?
Others have questioned our engineered wood floors and glues. Should we be concerned with these? We don't smell anything in the floors. Do all the possible offenders have smells that we could detect?
Thank you!

alise

Mad Dog_2 said:

They go off for a reason.  The very good CO monitors are hyper sensitive and accurate...they should not be ignored.  There was a Dentist on Long Island 🏝 about 10 years ago.  A highly trained medical professional but he had a lapse of common sense.  All of his CO detectors were sounding.  He didn't want this annoyance to wake his sleeping family.  He either took them down and brought outside or pulled the Batteries and went to work. He came home to 4 or 5 dead family members. Mad Dog 🐕 

Thank you! Which is your go to monitor and where should I put it? I could probably afford just one expensive one.

alise

But, if you want to follow up on the radon thing, I like the Airthings devices.
https://www.airthings.com
We have the Wave model , and its nice being able to see (remotely with the app on phone) the current and last day/week/month readings in graph form of radon, temperature and humidity.
Stick one of those in your house or crawlspace for a couple of days and you would have an answer for the radon question.

We live in area that doesn't really have issues with radon. Im planning to get a radon sensor just in case. None of our symptoms align with radon though. Thank you for the link and info!

alise

Jamie Hall said:

Tetrachloroethylene. Trichloroethylene. 1,1,1-trichloroethne. All used as cleaning and degreasing agents.
Formaldehyde. Disinfectant, but sometimes in insulation and cheap (bargain price) drywall.

Those are the common VOCs off the top of my head.

All neurotoxins. Some people are more susceptible than others. All have long term (days) effects at low concentrations.

Your symptoms are more or less compatible with any of them.

NONE of them are detectable by combustible gas or CO meters, however sensitive they may be.

How would these be detected?

Jamie Hall

It's not so easy if they are airbourne -- which they would be at least for a first go -- but there are detectors for them. They are VERY expensive, but a good haz-mat firm should have one, and most occupational safety firms should too.

alise

Jamie Hall said:

It's not so easy if they are airbourne -- which they would be at least for a first go -- but there are detectors for them. They are VERY expensive, but a good haz-mat firm should have one, and most occupational safety firms should too.

Thank you Jamie. Did you see my post about the paints. Im wondering if you had seen anyone sick before from paint or paint thinners. Or if you have come across our symptoms before?

STEAM DOCTOR

alise said:

Don't mind me. I used to do haz-mat for a living...

Jamie, your insights have been the most intriguing thus far, I'm having problems responding on my phone, when I've tried to respond to your posts I get quotes from all the other posts that I've responded to. So now Im on my computer. Please excuse me for not responding. I so appreciate your expertise and insights. I think you are on to something! What's most interesting..the chemicals you mentioned are in paints right? Well, the area where the Navien is located in the garage is also where the contractors put all of the left over paints. 5 very large containers, four single gallons and lots of little can samples. This is in a pocket space in the garage under a stairwell. This wall that the Navien is on and that the paints are against are shared with the living room. The back door is 3ft from the Navien and paints. I discovered yesterday the door has a quarter inch gap at the foot that hasn't been sealed off/can see light through! I noticed yesterday a backdraft of air from the garage coming through this gap! This door is close to all our living spaces and bedrooms. My first thought after I opened the door and smelled the strong smell was maybe these paints are the smell?! But really not sure the smell was paint. I moved all of these paint cans, buckets etc to the opposite side of the garage. Wrapped each one in thick garbage bags. While I was doing this I noticed two of the larger buckets don't seem like paint. They sloshed like a liquid so, I poured samples of those two liquids into bowls. Tried to smell them to compare but after being in the garage for longer than a few minutes I can't make out what smell and what doesn't. They smell like a chemical for sure. The liquid is not a paint, but not clear. Its white-ish. Like maybe some paint thinner that was poured into an empty paint container? I spent some time looking for other smells. One other thing that was seemingly smelling up garage was a bottle of "Weed b- gone". The spray nozzle had come off, but that happened probably last week after a weeding session. So last night we turned off the Navien and put a fan in the area where the paint had been. We also are keeping the car out of the garage. This morning no smells in that area and garage seems almost normal smelling. Last night however was the worse night of symptoms ever. I thought we might have to leave but I was so exhausted I slept through symptoms of vibrations. Now I wonder if my extreme symptoms were brought on by being in the garage with all the toxins for so long moving the paints, smelling them etc. Our plan is to keep the Navien off for a few days, keep paints covered, car out of garage and air out garage during the day and see if this helps. We are also going to fix the door gap. If we are looking to hire someone to investigate how much do you thing this might be and where can we find someone experienced enough? Were at the end of our fund now. Thank you so so much for your help! Truly!!

Maybe move the paint containers outside. 

Jamie Hall

I think you are getting somewhere. I have no idea what the whitish liquid is -- and I don't want to. Cap it up as tightly as you can (but don't pour it into another container!) and get it and all the paints out of the house and out of the garage. You may -- or may not, I don't know about Washington -- have a place which will take haz. waste, or perhaps your fire department can pick it up and get rid of it for you.

Then give it all a few days or a week or so, and air both the house and the garage out as thoroughly as you can -- maybe even buy a cheap window fan or something like that. See if things get better. I'm no doctor -- but it may be a few days before your symptoms start to go away, so take it easy. And i hope that they do go away!

Oh -- and get rid of the weed-be-gone, too. It's truly tough on weeds -- works great -- but it isn't something you want to be breathing.

N95 masks are no use for this kind of thing. There are specialty masks, though which are available with filter canisters which do, for a limited time, permit sort of safe occupancy. A really good hardware store might have them, or some farm supply outfits might. Uline also has them (Uline.com) but I dare say you need them sooner -- and they aren't cheap. You are looking for a 3M half face mask and the accompanying organic vapour/formaldehyde cartridges. You shouldn't need them if you get the stuff out of the house and garage though.

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

alise said:

Don't mind me. I used to do haz-mat for a living...

Jamie, your insights have been the most intriguing thus far, I'm having problems responding on my phone, when I've tried to respond to your posts I get quotes from all the other posts that I've responded to. So now Im on my computer. Please excuse me for not responding. I so appreciate your expertise and insights. I think you are on to something! What's most interesting..the chemicals you mentioned are in paints right? Well, the area where the Navien is located in the garage is also where the contractors put all of the left over paints. 5 very large containers, four single gallons and lots of little can samples. This is in a pocket space in the garage under a stairwell. This wall that the Navien is on and that the paints are against are shared with the living room. The back door is 3ft from the Navien and paints. I discovered yesterday the door has a quarter inch gap at the foot that hasn't been sealed off/can see light through! I noticed yesterday a backdraft of air from the garage coming through this gap! This door is close to all our living spaces and bedrooms. My first thought after I opened the door and smelled the strong smell was maybe these paints are the smell?! But really not sure the smell was paint. I moved all of these paint cans, buckets etc to the opposite side of the garage. Wrapped each one in thick garbage bags. While I was doing this I noticed two of the larger buckets don't seem like paint. They sloshed like a liquid so, I poured samples of those two liquids into bowls. Tried to smell them to compare but after being in the garage for longer than a few minutes I can't make out what smell and what doesn't. They smell like a chemical for sure. The liquid is not a paint, but not clear. Its white-ish. Like maybe some paint thinner that was poured into an empty paint container? I spent some time looking for other smells. One other thing that was seemingly smelling up garage was a bottle of "Weed b- gone". The spray nozzle had come off, but that happened probably last week after a weeding session. So last night we turned off the Navien and put a fan in the area where the paint had been. We also are keeping the car out of the garage. This morning no smells in that area and garage seems almost normal smelling. Last night however was the worse night of symptoms ever. I thought we might have to leave but I was so exhausted I slept through symptoms of vibrations. Now I wonder if my extreme symptoms were brought on by being in the garage with all the toxins for so long moving the paints, smelling them etc. Our plan is to keep the Navien off for a few days, keep paints covered, car out of garage and air out garage during the day and see if this helps. We are also going to fix the door gap. If we are looking to hire someone to investigate how much do you thing this might be and where can we find someone experienced enough? Were at the end of our fund now. Thank you so so much for your help! Truly!!

Maybe move the paint containers outside. 

Yes, thank you! We moved them outside but still in the plastic bags a few hours ago
 Praying that they are the culprits.

Mad Dog_2

We'll Alise...thats why we are talking you through this...the more information we get, and is looked at,  the better we can help guide you.  Jamie is our resident 😎 Savant....Super Smart man and highly educated.  Get back to basics...Eliminate EVERYTHING from the house that is not a naturally occurring item you could find in nature.  Radon occurs naturally from the earth.  

Who KNOWS what your house was built on???  Old Garbage dump, Toxic waste site...its happened. Most developers don't care... they ain't gonna live over it.  In NYC, 
we've been building over "formerly" polluted soil and old dumps and backfill dump sites and in the last 15 years or so, the plans started calling for a S.S.D.S. piping system.  Thats Sub Surface Depressurisation System.  In short, a few layers of  Rubber membrane goes over the "formerly contaminated" soil (Post Clean up) , then a perforated piping grid is laid out under there. All the piping and noxious fumes et cetera terminate through the roof of the building.  We then have a a power vacuum fan/pump that "Depressurizes" the contaminated soil zone.  It's works well, but you're still sitting on top of questionable soil.  They even build schools on this land....Oh Well..Life in a Post Industrial landscape..atleast they are addressing it. Remember Love Canal NY...look it up...Paints, solvents, gasoline should NEVER be stored near fuel burning equipment OR in the living space.,for reasons of combustibility AND IAQ
(Indoor air quality).

I'm going to reach out to the Great CO King, Jim Davis...he needs to weigh in here. Stay tuned...  Mad Dog 🐕 

MikeL_2

   I suggest consulting with an Occupational Therapist.  They have the resources to connect you with a broad range of investigational agencies. 

STEAM DOCTOR

https://nypost.com/2023/08/25/florida-man-caught-injecting-opioid-chemical-agent-under-neighbors-door/

Mad Dog_2

I reached out to Jim Davis...hopefully he weighs in today   mad dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Never underestimate the malice of a demented scientist..A Doctoral student no less!  Mad Dog 🐕 

alise

STEAM DOCTOR said:

https://nypost.com/2023/08/25/florida-man-caught-injecting-opioid-chemical-agent-under-neighbors-door/


This is horrifying. We do have some neighbors that are upset with us and the thought has crossed our minds considering how strange our situation has been. 

alise

Mad Dog_2 said:

I reached out to Jim Davis...hopefully he weighs in today   mad dog 🐕 

I really appreciate it! Thank you so very much!!

alise

MikeL_2 said:

   I suggest consulting with an Occupational Therapist.  They have the resources to connect you with a broad range of investigational agencies. 

I hadn't thought of that, thank you!

alise

Mad Dog_2 said:

We'll Alise...thats why we are talking you through this...the more information we get, and is looked at,  the better we can help guide you.  Jamie is our resident 😎 Savant....Super Smart man and highly educated.  Get back to basics...Eliminate EVERYTHING from the house that is not a naturally occurring item you could find in nature.  Radon occurs naturally from the earth.  

Who KNOWS what your house was built on???  Old Garbage dump, Toxic waste site...its happened. Most developers don't care... they ain't gonna live over it.  In NYC, 
we've been building over "formerly" polluted soil and old dumps and backfill dump sites and in the last 15 years or so, the plans started calling for a S.S.D.S. piping system.  Thats Sub Surface Depressurisation System.  In short, a few layers of  Rubber membrane goes over the "formerly contaminated" soil (Post Clean up) , then a perforated piping grid is laid out under there. All the piping and noxious fumes et cetera terminate through the roof of the building.  We then have a a power vacuum fan/pump that "Depressurizes" the contaminated soil zone.  It's works well, but you're still sitting on top of questionable soil.  They even build schools on this land....Oh Well..Life in a Post Industrial landscape..atleast they are addressing it. Remember Love Canal NY...look it up...Paints, solvents, gasoline should NEVER be stored near fuel burning equipment OR in the living space.,for reasons of combustibility AND IAQ
(Indoor air quality).

I'm going to reach out to the Great CO King, Jim Davis...he needs to weigh in here. Stay tuned...  Mad Dog 🐕 

Thank you, I'm so glad I found this amazing community full of smart and generous sleuths. Redit was a dead end and full of trolls. 
We're pretty sure our land is not toxic. We did get some infill that was from a granite quarry. We called about it yesterday.

Concerning radon, would a typical home depot monitor suffice, and where's best location for the monitor?

Regarding the paints-I can't believe we were storing them next to the gas hvac and gas water heater and I'm pretty upset that our house designer allowed the gas appliances to be placed so close to our back door and on a living space wall. I wish we would have thought that through. 
 
Moving the paints outdoors made a huge difference in the odor I was smelling in the house. I mentioned before there are two five gallon containers containing liquid chemicals (not paint) that make me ponder. We've always stored paint in our past garages and they never emmited any smells. The area where these paints and these liquids were store reaked so badly, and the smell did not resemble paint. I wonder if I should get this liquid tested. I assume it's paint thinner that was put into empty paint containers. Perhaps they were meant for the trash. Will call the painter and try to find out. 

Our garage is packed full of things, even leftover building materials like plyboards and trim. Were planning to go through everything this weekend and throw away anything suspicious. 
 We have an old fridge that's in the garage, not in use. I'm wondering if we should be concerned with any refridgerants. Reading about refridgerant toxicity symptoms match for us. 
One last question for all- can my doctor test for any of these toxins in paints, refridgerants, carpets ect? That might help pin point or at least rule out mold sickness. 
Most people have commented our symptoms are from the mold. 
Thank you!

alise

Jamie Hall said:

I think you are getting somewhere. I have no idea what the whitish liquid is -- and I don't want to. Cap it up as tightly as you can (but don't pour it into another container!) and get it and all the paints out of the house and out of the garage. You may -- or may not, I don't know about Washington -- have a place which will take haz. waste, or perhaps your fire department can pick it up and get rid of it for you. Then give it all a few days or a week or so, and air both the house and the garage out as thoroughly as you can -- maybe even buy a cheap window fan or something like that. See if things get better. I'm no doctor -- but it may be a few days before your symptoms start to go away, so take it easy. And i hope that they do go away! Oh -- and get rid of the weed-be-gone, too. It's truly tough on weeds -- works great -- but it isn't something you want to be breathing. N95 masks are no use for this kind of thing. There are specialty masks, though which are available with filter canisters which do, for a limited time, permit sort of safe occupancy. A really good hardware store might have them, or some farm supply outfits might. Uline also has them (Uline.com) but I dare say you need them sooner -- and they aren't cheap. You are looking for a 3M half face mask and the accompanying organic vapour/formaldehyde cartridges. You shouldn't need them if you get the stuff out of the house and garage though.

Thank you Jamie for responding and providing me with valuable nformation. The aints are out of the garage and i will get rid of the weed killers. We do have a local site that accepts paints and other chemicals.

Any thoughts on cabinets that are particle board and obviously glued together (like at the joints ect). They are smelly and are especially smelly when  drawers are opened. Things stored in them have obvious chemical smell.
 We were highly suspicious of them after reading about various glue toxicity symptoms. However,  considering how extreme our symptoms were ( 24/7 nerve trembling, head sensations and tinnitus) it's hard to imagine the cabinets are the culprits because no one else is reporting or complaining about their cabinets making them sick. ( I researched online alot!) People talk about how long they smell but not nerve damage. Should we rule out cabinets?

I will look for the mask you suggest. 
We pray its the paints.

Thank you kindly!

Mad Dog_2

Chlordane was a great termite killer but Cancer ♋ causing, but if your house is built in last 30 years that should not be the issue. You need to go to the closest big city Hospital 🏥 and insist on a full blood work up for all occupants.  There  are great Country Doctors but they are not usually seeing all the wild cases a big city Hospital will.  They also have state of the art tests.  Yes, ANY detector is better than none.  Get a Radon detector.  

I have a client that also had a vicious neighbor trying to poison her.  People are crazier than ever...Mad Dog 🐕 

alise

Mad Dog_2 said:

Chlordane was a great termite killer but Cancer ♋ causing, but if your house is built in last 30 years that should not be the issue. You need to go to the closest big city Hospital 🏥 and insist on a full blood work up for all occupants.  There  are great Country Doctors but they are not usually seeing all the wild cases a big city Hospital will.  They also have state of the art tests.  Yes, ANY detector is better than none.  Get a Radon detector.  

I have a client that also had a vicious neighbor trying to poison her.  People are crazier than ever...Mad Dog 🐕 

Our house is brand new. When our symptoms were at their worst, we went to best hospital in Seattle. The ER doctor said he tested everthing he could think of and tested organ functions. Nothing was found. He suggested it might be new carpet.

alise

Question for this group, would it be possible to use one of these Backarach detectors to find

1. refrigerant leak
2. chemicals from things likes paints etc.

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Larry (from OSHA)

Alise, you have had many suggestions and all are worthy. I think that the direction that Jamie hall has suggested is a very valid thought. My experience suggests that an Industrial Hygienist would be most appropriate for environmental testing. Formaldehyde in building materials and cabinets may be present and can cause many of the symptoms you and your husband have been experiencing. If there is any spray foam insulation, that can also be a cause for your symptoms. There have been reports of improperly cured foam that can result in adverse health conditions such as yours, although the number of such improper foam insulation installations is, I believe, fairly low. As others have told you, the carpet may be suspect. I think many building products both used and installed in your new home can be contributing to your problem. I suggest that in the short term, greatly increase ventilation by opening windows, adding both intake and exhaust fans if able and removing all the left over construction stuff. Long term low level carbon monoxide exposure can produce a variety of symptoms but I think it is unlikely that is your problem, considering the measures you have already taken. As others have said, local government agency's won't be able to help you. Contact an Industrial Hygienist who will be able to perform the environmental testing that I think you will find most helpful. Also, radon will give you lung cancer and to the best of my knowledge, none of the problems you are experiencing are related to radon exposure. And, any refrigerant leakage would probably be long gone.

I hope you find good results very soon.

Larry

CLamb

Are there any similar homes recently built nearby by the same contractors? If so, they might be experiencing the same thing.

alise

Larry (from OSHA) said:

Alise, you have had many suggestions and all are worthy. I think that the direction that Jamie hall has suggested is a very valid thought. My experience suggests that an Industrial Hygienist would be most appropriate for environmental testing. Formaldehyde in building materials and cabinets may be present and can cause many of the symptoms you and your husband have been experiencing. If there is any spray foam insulation, that can also be a cause for your symptoms. There have been reports of improperly cured foam that can result in adverse health conditions such as yours, although the number of such improper foam insulation installations is, I believe, fairly low. As others have told you, the carpet may be suspect. I think many building products both used and installed in your new home can be contributing to your problem. I suggest that in the short term, greatly increase ventilation by opening windows, adding both intake and exhaust fans if able and removing all the left over construction stuff. Long term low level carbon monoxide exposure can produce a variety of symptoms but I think it is unlikely that is your problem, considering the measures you have already taken. As others have said, local government agency's won't be able to help you. Contact an Industrial Hygienist who will be able to perform the environmental testing that I think you will find most helpful. Also, radon will give you lung cancer and to the best of my knowledge, none of the problems you are experiencing are related to radon exposure. And, any refrigerant leakage would probably be long gone. I hope you find good results very soon. Larry

Thank you Larry for taking the time to give us this information. We so appreciate it. I wish we had hired a hygenist first. I feel foolish for not knowing they worked in residential. I've been calling around all afternoon. We don't have anyone local and finding residential is tough.  I was able to get references to various labs and and are contacting them for hygenists who use their services. 

No spray foams thankfully. I am suspicious of the cabinets-glue, paint, formaldehyde. What are your thoughts on the paints that we found in garage? I'm trying to get a hold of the painter to find out what the odorous clear liquid we found it. I assume some type of paint thinner. From my research, almost all the paint thinners could cause all of our symptoms, and it was back drafting into the house the entire time.

Any concerns we should have about possible backdrafting from Navien? Not only CO,.but other chemicals?

After talking with some hygenists it seems they havent encountered our particular set of symptoms especially considering we have no respiratory symptoms. 
Have you personally seen our set of symptoms in any case?
Ringing ears (permanent)
Trembling nerves throughout body and head, progressed to mild tremors 
Feeling of electrical shocks in legs while sleeping
Rapid heart rate upon weakening up to 150 bpm (that took a few hours to become regular)
Slight disorientation and fuzzy head

Thank you again for considering our situation!

Mad Dog_2

Have you called your Insurance agent about Homeowners insurance policy?  Maybe, they can get involved and cover this?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

All three of the first compounds I listed can cause symptoms at relatively low levels which are consistent with the ones you report. Formaldehyde is much more likely to show up with respiratory irritation and problems, so I'd be more suspicious of the first group. Some paint thinners also contain compounds which have similar effects, though generally more mild (as if that helps any...).