Flame Retardant Paint for spray foam

Mad Dog_2

My Buddy Dave the Contractor asked me if I knew of a Recommended product to meet this building code requirement.  Are there inexpensive and expensive types?  Thanks Guys   mad Dog 🐕 

leonz

Hello Matt,

As far as I know there are no fire resistant paints
for spray foam insulation.

I doubt the fire resistant latex paints would even
stand up to a combustable foam fed fire.

I see all these homes being foamed and I just cringe
when I think about the off gassing problems and how
they simply bury potable water piping and wiring in
this foam.

hot_rod

Why not a fire stop product.

pecmsg

hot_rod said:

Why not a fire stop product.

X-2
thats the only approved method. 

realliveplumber

That stuff should be illegal. Its not a fire block. Its burns readily, and intensely . Its really draftstopping. Check out #5.
https://www.greatstuff.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/greatstuff-renewed/public/sds/en/fireblock-insulating-foam-sealant-smart-dispenser-US-SDS-000000488459.pdf

GGross

Locally we cannot use any paint for this purpose, county building department held a big meeting about it and everything. It was a pretty big deal as I guess some paint suppliers were making claims that it was code compliant, but they were wrong. I don't believe anything has changed since then

ChrisJ

realliveplumber said:

That stuff should be illegal. Its not a fire block. Its burns readily, and intensely . Its really draftstopping. Check out #5.
https://www.greatstuff.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/greatstuff-renewed/public/sds/en/fireblock-insulating-foam-sealant-smart-dispenser-US-SDS-000000488459.pdf

I had used this in some areas, only to find out it was just as flammable as normal spray foam.
Off the top of my head, I thought the Great Stuff fireblock was just a different color normal spray foam, no?

hot_rod

Fire blocking was required in any stud space if the wall was over 8’ when I worked on a framing crew.
It was a 2x4 across the stud bay.

a fire block is supposed to stop the air movement through the space. Fire stop is different.
It’s the entire wall assembly that makes it a fire rated wall, the Sheetrock and the sealing of the penetrations. In apartment buildings they used 2 layers of X rated Sheetrock. For sound and fire stop.

The great stuff foam has several listings, it must pass some testing requirement? Same as the 2x4 wood fire blocking🤓

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

Fire blocking was required in any stud space if the wall was over 8’ when I worked on a framing crew.
It was a 2x4 across the stud bay.

a fire block is supposed to stop the air movement through the space. Fire stop is different.
It’s the entire wall assembly that makes it a fire rated wall, the Sheetrock and the sealing of the penetrations. In apartment buildings they used 2 layers of X rated Sheetrock. For sound and fire stop.

The great stuff foam has several listings, it must pass some testing requirement? Same as the 2x4 wood fire blocking🤓

That's fine,
But why make it a different color and sell it in a different can if it's the same stuff?

GGross

ChrisJ said:

hot_rod said:

Fire blocking was required in any stud space if the wall was over 8’ when I worked on a framing crew.
It was a 2x4 across the stud bay.

a fire block is supposed to stop the air movement through the space. Fire stop is different.
It’s the entire wall assembly that makes it a fire rated wall, the Sheetrock and the sealing of the penetrations. In apartment buildings they used 2 layers of X rated Sheetrock. For sound and fire stop.

The great stuff foam has several listings, it must pass some testing requirement? Same as the 2x4 wood fire blocking🤓

That's fine,
But why make it a different color and sell it in a different can if it's the same stuff?

If they use the UL listing, they have to pay for that. We have the same thing with tape for duct work, same company sells the same tape with listing, and without, the listed tape costs more, the tape itself is identical

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

hot_rod said:

Fire blocking was required in any stud space if the wall was over 8’ when I worked on a framing crew.
It was a 2x4 across the stud bay.

a fire block is supposed to stop the air movement through the space. Fire stop is different.
It’s the entire wall assembly that makes it a fire rated wall, the Sheetrock and the sealing of the penetrations. In apartment buildings they used 2 layers of X rated Sheetrock. For sound and fire stop.

The great stuff foam has several listings, it must pass some testing requirement? Same as the 2x4 wood fire blocking🤓

That's fine,
But why make it a different color and sell it in a different can if it's the same stuff?

Good question for DuPont?
The the product has been on the shelf for years, a discussion about its listings in
2014 in FHB

PC7060

The orange stuff has been tested to meet the applicable standards.   Typically only used to block small openings as a fire block.  

You can go around and around re the safety of spray foam but it’s an approved product and considered a highly effective insulator. 

pecmsg

PC7060 said:

The orange stuff has been tested to meet the applicable standards.   Typically only used to block small openings as a fire block.  

You can go around and around re the safety of spray foam but it’s an approved product and considered a highly effective insulator. 

I believe it’s fire rated for less that a 1” opening. 

realliveplumber

IMO, the manufacturer is capitalizing on a common term, you could even call a slang term. Fire blocking, Fire stopping, whatever. The can should be labeled "draft stopping", because that's what it is. It may be listed, but that doesn't make it right.

There is more than one way to draft stop. Solid wood, mineral wool, etc. Of course, the way these newer buildings burn, with all of the osb and plastics used, the draft stopping doesn't seem to matter anyway. Maybe it would give occupants a few more seconds to exit a burning building, but that's about it.

That great stuff product is spray foam with a different color.

leonz

UGGHHH,

I cringe every time I see a "home" being built oe remodeled with OSB or plywood remembering what happened outside of Syracuse 2 decades ago when a new house went up in flames killing one or two 2 volunteer fire fighters due to a basement fire with an improperly installed paint locker.

The floor and engineered floor joists failed during the fire and either one or both of the volunteers fell through the floor to the basement and died from blunt force trauma and caron monoxide poisoning.

All of that engineered lumber off gasses and it is not healthy.

ChrisJ

leonz said:

UGGHHH,

I cringe every time I see a "home" being built oe remodeled with OSB or plywood remembering what happened outside of Syracuse 2 decades ago when a new house went up in flames killing one or two 2 volunteer fire fighters due to a basement fire with an improperly installed paint locker.

The floor and engineered floor joists failed during the fire and either one or both of the volunteers fell through the floor to the basement and died from blunt force trauma and caron monoxide poisoning.

All of that engineered lumber off gasses and it is not healthy.

You cringe from the use of OSB and Plywood? Plywood?

What do you recommend? We go back in time 70 years and use only tongue and groove?


All of a sudden I feel like my previous comments were on the wrong side of this discussion.

leonz

I look at this way, a lot of fine well designed stick built local homes with the architectural drawings, complete indoor plumbing, tile, concrete farmers laundry sinks steam piping, potable water piping, exterior and interior paint, wooden flooring, boxes of nails, lath and bags of plaster, bags of rock wool insulation, sand paint, all the electrical wiring and the fuse box for the home right to 50 Ampere weatherhead fixture that protected the exterior feeder cable that was screwed to the homes exterior, bricks, bagged mortar, and concrete mix, the coal fired steam boilers or Coleman scorched air furnaces and asbestos cement siding were built with tongue and groove hemlock, tongue and groove white pine, tongue and groove southern yellow pine, dimensional lumber, roll roofing, tar paper and asphalt shingles that were sold by Montgomery Ward and Company and Sear Roebuck and Company.

They arrived at their shipping destinations using many hundreds of 40 foot boxcars that off loaded these complete homes on local railroad docks and the materials were delivered using local labor and stake rack trucks and most all of these homes are still standing today.

My wife of 45 years grew up in a Montomery Ward Home and the 2 homes I grew up in were built with locally milled and mined materials from local sawmills and cement mills.

I would imagine the Levitts used the above example to make all thier tract homes which gobbled up all the good farmland on Long Island after the second world war.

Yes I am fond of the craftsmanship that goes into the use of thick Stucco molded to sheets of diamond perforated steel sheets bent to form valleys to hold the thick stucco and then framed and nailed to a homes exterior dimensional lumber along with interior lath, nails, wooden molding, floor varnish, wood stains and plaster to make a home and what goes along with it.

My thoughts on a rainy day where nothing can be done outside.

PC7060

Virginia code requires engineered joist to be covered with an approved fire rate system. Drywall is the obvious choice but properly supported rock-wool
is allowed as well. The concern is the vortex burns that occur with the structure due to the shape.  

I used standard 2x10 for first floor framing because I wanted to keep it open underneath for access.  The second level I used TJI joists.  

Having said that, I’ve seen many houses in adjoining municipalities, who don’t enforce that requirement.

Mad Dog_2

I hate to Demo Bathrooms from that era (Pre-sheetrock, greenboard and Wonderboard, Denshield, et al...Those High Rib Lathe, cement pancakes 🥞 and then Pink or green Ceramic Tile were Battleship Strong. As long as you keep them grouped, they are still plenty in use...Mad Dog 🐕 

random12345

What is X-2? I don't like spray foam. The attic was redone in 2007 and the installer used open cell instead of closed cell and didn't install a vapor barrier. As soon as the roof gets hot, the whole attic stinks unless all the windows are wide open. I had never heard of fire retardant paint for SPF until now. I figured since it was already loaded with TCPP it wasn't needed. But then I found out that polyurethane smolders during a fire. When you add the fact that so many homes have old ionization detectors, and that these apparently do a lousy job of quickly detecting smoldering fires, you might have a real problem...Interestingly while the number of home fires, fire deaths and injuries have all declined since 1980, the death and injury rates per home fire have both increased. It seems home fires have become more lethal and dangerous.
https://nfpa.org/-/media/files/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/building-and-life-safety/oshomes.pdf
https://youtube.com/watch?v=pnlkiZC0dd0
https://smokealarmsafety.org/index.html
Here's a great collection of lab tests comparing ionization vs. photoelectric smoke alarms performance going back several decades: propertyevaluation.net/Residential%20Smoke%20Alarms%20-%20Ionization%20vs%20Photo%20-%20Various%20Reports%20and%20Presentations.PDF
Anyway, I know this was kind of off-topic. Googling around, some options for SPF I'm seeing are DC315, F10E, Contego, Firegard

Mad Dog_2

Firemen 🚒 unsuccessfully fought the use of PVC pipe in the 1970s because it produced, highly toxic chlorine gas when it burned.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

Just a random thought on timber. Keep in mind that there is a world of difference between modern standard timber -- 4 inch nominal thickness (3.25 inch planed) plantation grown, engineered small dimension wood, such as the engineered I beam type joists one see all the time, and the like on the one hand, and heavy timber (6 inch actual dimension, solid cut or glue laminated) on the other. All the former stuff -- which is all you will see in a residence -- is regarded as flammable. The heavy stuff, on the other hand (referred to as heavy timber construction) is treated from the fire code standpoint very differently, and actually is more fire resistant than either concrete or unprotected steel.

On the foams and other fire stops or fire blocks. There is a difference, and several have pointed it out. Thank you!

realliveplumber

X-2 = times two, I think it means in agreement, as in another person is in agreement , thus 2 people.

Mad Dog_2

I remember the G C. Saying the spray on insulation was flammable as it sprayed on..is that a Myth or true?  I DO remember it being very noxious.  Mad 🐕 Dog 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

I remember the G C. Saying the spray on insulation was flammable as it sprayed on..is that a Myth or true?  I DO remember it being very noxious.  Mad 🐕 Dog 

Extremely flammable.
But it also burns pretty good after it sets up too.

realliveplumber

Cement board has a poor R value, and will allow heat to pass through it. Fireplace manufacturers, such as Mendota, dont allow it in their installations. They require a rated product.

ChrisJ

realliveplumber said:

Cement board has a poor R value, and will allow heat to pass through it. Fireplace manufacturers, such as Mendota, dont allow it in their installations. They require a rated product.

The pellet stove that was in my house had a thin metal cover over drywall.
My grandfather's 1977 Fisher stove had the exact same thing, 1/2" thick drywall with a thin metal cover. I'll be restoring the Baby Bear soon, but do not have the base it sat on or that was on the wall behind it.


Sheet rock, drywall, whatever you want to call it is very often used for fireproofing, demising walls etc.

Curious what modern wood stove requirements are? Are they still using drywall in that manner?

Zman

@Mad Dog_2 is it a large area of foam like an entire ceiling or just a few penetrations? For larger areas, the IBC has a section that requires a flame spread rating in certain areas. On the residential side, I believe it applies to any place the public can come in contact with it and areas with mech equipt. On the commercial side, it probably applies to all of it. There is an intumescent paint that costs several bucks a foot that meets the requirement. In some cases, it is easier to cover it with drywall.

Jamie Hall

Many stoves were able to be placed closer to combustible surfaces -- such as drywall -- provided there was a sheet metal shield spaced out from the wall an inch or so. Should be in the documentation with the stove.

Standard drywall is not fireproof, nor is it rated for either a fire stop or fire block. There are types of drywall which are.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Many stoves were able to be placed closer to combustible surfaces -- such as drywall -- provided there was a sheet metal shield spaced out from the wall an inch or so. Should be in the documentation with the stove.

Standard drywall is not fireproof, nor is it rated for either a fire stop or fire block. There are types of drywall which are.

What types of drywall are?

realliveplumber

Type X is what's used in residential garages attached to homes.

I dont have experience with wood stoves.

realliveplumber

Here is Mendotas requirements.

There was a landscaper around here that was doing patios, and enclosing barbeque grills in wood framing, and using 1/2" wonderboard as fire protection. One caught fire, as the heat traveles through the wonderboard. He had a bunch he had to rip out.

Bob Harper

The test to be recognized as "non-combustible" is ASTM E-136. This is a vertical tube furnace at 750C. You weigh a sample, blast it, then weigh the remainder. If it bursts into flames, falls apart or loses 50% of its mass, it fails. Wonderboard falls apart from calcination. Durock has been my go to ever since they took asbestos millboard off the market in '78. As noted, many products rated non-comb have a high thermal conductivity or K factor, which is the reciprocal of R. You can add in R but not K

Flame spread ratings are typically based upon ASTM E-84/ UL723/ NFPA 255. This is a 25ft. Steiner Tunnel test. You pave the tunnel 1.5 ft wide its length with 3/4" red oak and ignite one end. When it reaches the other end, that time is referenced as '100'. CBB is referenced as '0'. If your product tested as a '25', which is also a UL class A, it burns 25% as fast as red oak....but it still burns.

Depending upon where it is in the structure, it may require just an ignition barrier or it may also require a 15 minute thermal barrier.

Firestopping intumescent foams are listed to ASTM E-814/ UL 1479. They require an approved means of support and their application, gap filling, and thickness are specified in the instructions and per the requisite 1,2, or 3 hour fire rating required based upon the occupancy. This is the hose stream test. Firestopping foams are not a recognized means of coating or protecting combustible foams. There are paints with a Class A rating for low flame spread but those are very limited, special applications. Check with your local Authority Having Jurisdiction (code official).
HTH