Replacing Badly Rusted Tankless Coil on Weil Mclain EG-45 - NSFW

hadeone

Hello all again, I have a older Weil Mclain EG-45 that I'm (slowly) maintaining after I believe the previous owners neglected for a long time. When I moved in I suspected the tankless coil was leaking slowly and bought the replacement parts to change it and now the time has come. The damage has accelerated big time since the boiler was turned off this spring. Big chunks of the coil plate are coming off and it looks like one of the bolts is also nearly gone. I wasn't expecting that when I went to spray them all with Knoll to prepare for removal.

I've never done this before (but I'm sure it will turn out fine ) I'm looking for your advice once again. Any tips to prepare for this disaster of a project? I found a similar thread and have pretty much the same questions as this guy : https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/165188/steam-boiler-tankless-coil-repair

On top of that, is the actual boiler sections at risk of being degraded? Should I plan on changing the whole boiler all together? Here are some NSFW pics of the damage:






So far I just cleaned off as much rust as I could around the bolt heads and sprayed Knoll. Not sure it will penetrate enough to do anything. I plan on spraying them every day for a few days. How should I try to remove them without snapping?
Any help is appreciated. Thank you.

JohnNY

Out of curiosity, why are you saying NSFW?

hadeone

JohnNY said:

Out of curiosity, why are you saying NSFW?

I was joking. To me this is tough to look at but obviously this is all in a day's work for an experienced technician.

realliveplumber

I see alot of drilling and tapping in you near future.......

That is if there is even the resemblance of a decent mating surface for a gasket to seal to.

hadeone

realliveplumber said:

That is if there is even the resemblance of a decent mating surface for a gasket to seal to.

So you're saying the boiler could be toast because the boiler casing is rusted away? The gasket that came with the new tankless coil is a fairly thin black rubber. Could a thicker gasket be used to keep it sealed on a rusted uneven casing? Any possible solution aside from replacing the boiler?

STEAM DOCTOR

Are you doing this work yourself? If yes, give it a shot and see what happens. If you are hiring a professional, you need to decide if you want to invest what might be a significant amount of money. Any idea of the age of the boiler? Maybe do a boiler leak test, before investing time/money. Fill boiler to the top and see if water leaks from the sections. You will probably get leakage from the coil. Be prepared with a wet vac or towels or speedy dry or something. Would be a shame to invest time and or money into a boiler that is otherwise leaking. 

hadeone

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Are you doing this work yourself? If yes, give it a shot and see what happens. If you are hiring a professional, you need to decide if you want to invest what might be a significant amount of money. Any idea of the age of the boiler? Maybe do a boiler leak test, before investing time/money. Fill boiler to the top and see if water leaks from the sections. You will probably get leakage from the coil. Be prepared with a wet vac or towels or speedy dry or something. Would be a shame to invest time and or money into a boiler that is otherwise leaking. 

Thanks for the practical advise. I was planning on doing it myself but I'm getting worried now since I don't have any experience drilling and tapping holes and not sure what the condition of the mating surface will be underneath the coil plate. Either way I can do removals, try my best to not break the bolts, at the least the one in the picture looks like it's going to fall off by itself so I'm sure they won't come out easy. Then I'll see what I'm working with.

As far as I know the boiler was running well beside the coil leak, I was adding water every other week or so during the winter. I will fill it to the top and see. How should I check for leaks? Remove the exterior covers?

In my area (NYC) labor is not cheap so you're right that I shouldn't spend money on having someone try to mess with this when I might have to pay them to replace the whole boiler. However, a new boiler is at least $6000 from my quick search, plus the labor which will probably be at least as much. So if it's fixable that would be better but you are right that I need to make sure the rest of it is OK.

This coil looked a lot better last summer but I got caught up with other projects and didn't change it. Now it's worse.

Thanks

STEAM DOCTOR

No need to remove the cover. If the sections are shot, or if the connections are shot, you will know pretty instantly. Either water dripping on the burners, or down the side of the boiler. 

STEAM DOCTOR

Just out of curiosity. What is that coil being used for?

hadeone

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Just out of curiosity. What is that coil being used for?

It's for baseboard radiators in the basement. Another system that I have to troubleshoot because this winter the circuit lost a lot of water and started banging on a really cold day. I had the water feed valve off since it's been always been off and I wasn't sure about it.

I suspected the automatic bleeder, and changed it but I don't think it bled correctly. I decided to stop using it until I changed the coil, and relied on the ductless split for heat.

STEAM DOCTOR

For your information, in the event that you need to replace the boiler, there are ways to heat basement baseboard without using a coil. Weil Mclain, is the only manufacturer who makes a gas steam boiler with a coil. And their prices are a fortune. You can probably get a less expensive boiler and work off of that. Emphasis on probably. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

That coil and boiler look pretty bad. A pro is problbly going to teel you to forget it.

But the decision is easy. "what have you got to loose?

Remove the coil and get the bolts out that you can, most of them may break,

You can drill and tap the holes and use a grinder to create a new surface for the coil.

It is chancey but you have nothing to loose except the cost of a new coil

hadeone

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

That coil and boiler look pretty bad. A pro is problbly going to teel you to forget it.

But the decision is easy. "what have you got to loose?

Remove the coil and get the bolts out that you can, most of them may break,

You can drill and tap the holes and use a grinder to create a new surface for the coil.

It is chancey but you have nothing to loose except the cost of a new coil

You're right. The coil is already sitting next to the boiler. I purchased it probably a year ago... Thanks

STEAM DOCTOR said:

For your information, in the event that you need to replace the boiler, there are ways to heat basement baseboard without using a coil. Weil Mclain, is the only manufacturer who makes a gas steam boiler with a coil. And their prices are a fortune. You can probably get a less expensive boiler and work off of that. Emphasis on probably. 

I don't even really need the baseboards. I wish I had ripped them out when I refinished the basement but I didn't have the AC back then. The AC made plenty of heat down there this winter.

Now that I didn't rip them out it seems like a waste not to reconnect them..

What would you recommend as a replacement boiler? Thank you again

STEAM DOCTOR

As you will hear many times on this site, the  installer is a lot more important than the boiler.  Bad installer can make any boiler bad. And vice versa. That said, for gas steam (no coil), my personal preferences are Peerless and Williamson. Williamson is a Weil McLain in disguise (just a bit cheaper and without the coil option). 

mattmia2

If the surface of the boiler is pitted up I would clean it up with a wire wheel and use a composition gasket instead of a resillaint gasket. A composition gasket with RTV on both sides will deal a lot better with a pitted surface. Not sure if the gasket is available from Weil or if you'd have to make one out of sheet gasket.

mattmia2

If you use a 6 point socket and a t handle and some rocking instead of just going right for it you might be surprised at how many bolts come out.

hadeone

mattmia2 said:

If you use a 6 point socket and a t handle and some rocking instead of just going right for it you might be surprised at how many bolts come out.

Thanks so much. This kind of advise is helpful because I know my way around a wrench but have no experience with boilers.

I sprayed Knoll to the bolt heads so far but I'm not sure if it's actually reaching the thread. What's the best way to make sure it's doing something?

And can you point me to the right gasket material? I have the one that came with it, black EPDM looks like but it's very thin stuff. I guess I'll have to make my own.

Is this the kind of gasket material you're thinking? I could only find 1/8" thick so far:

https://www.zoro.com/thermoseal-gasket-sheet-synthetic-fibers-c-4401/i/G4665297/?recommended=true#reviews

https://www.zoro.com/garlock-sealing-technologies-gasket-aramid-fiber-18-in-t-15-x-15-in-3000/i/G0694136/

mattmia2

That's the kind of gasket. Mcmaster-carr probably has a better selection. The bolts may go in to the water side and require sealer so pay attention to that.

If you have an acetylene torch heating the bolts and letting them cool before you try to remove them will do a lot to soften the corrosion.

MikeL_2

     I prefer to grind the heads off the bolts, after draining the boiler & coil of course.
    When you remove the coil plate the remaining studs will be protruding almost 1/2". I heat them red hot & let them cool; sometimes with  the aid of a few ice cubes or snow.
    I've always been able to easily remove the remaining stud with a tiny pipe wrench....
     
  

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't know about "easy" but the above method is pretty good.

mattmia2

You might find that the leaking is from bolts that should have had sealant and didn't and the gasket surface is in good shape. If you can keep it off for a few days you might want to see what it looks like before you decide about using something other than the gasket that came with the new coil.

hadeone

mattmia2 said:

You might find that the leaking is from bolts that should have had sealant and didn't and the gasket surface is in good shape. If you can keep it off for a few days you might want to see what it looks like before you decide about using something other than the gasket that came with the new coil.

 Hopefully.  I filled it all the way up and it didnt leak from anywhere else, so that’s good.  Then I drained it today and plan on tackling it next weekend.  I Have a few months.  Thanks

hadeone

Here is an update of the damage. I tried to heat the bolts, they turned a bit then snapped. Can it be saved? What do you guys think?

JUGHNE

IIWM, I would go with the grind off the head method.

With the plate off you can examine the sealing surfaces of the boiler section.

That might be a deciding factor for the future.

Intplm.

Keep going. This, as you know is very labor-intensive and a bit intimidating. Continue to heat the bolts.
You're in it now so there's no turning back. If all the bolts snap off after heating them, then go with the grind smooth and drill and tap. Dont worry. Just tough it out.

This is your plan "A". Stay with it. Hope you don't need plan "B" (replacing it.)

mattmia2

Replacement is like plan d. You still have several options here.

hadeone

mattmia2 said:

Replacement is like plan d. You still have several options here.

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I'll pull of the plate and go from there.

mattmia2

Try some rocking back and forth before you go for it.

pecmsg

I have an easy out set with reverse rotation drill bits. 9 x out of 10 the drilling heat and reverse direction does the job. 

jesmed1

I also find that smacking the bolt heads and/or protruding shanks several times with a 2-pound sledge helps break the corrosion bond on the threads. Hammer and heat, then rock back and forth with a wrench. Then the EZ out if you need it.

hadeone

Here is an update:

All the bolts snapped.  I tried induction heating, mapp gas, smacking, back and forth by hand, impact gun, all produced the same result.  

Thoughts?

Thanks for reading.

pecmsg

Seeing as ALL the bolts snapped 
a) a lot of work repairing it
b) replace the boiler. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Take a grinder and grind the bolts flush. Use a wire wheel and go slowly and clean the whole surface off. Keep it flat and clean it up. You don't want to be digging holes and make the surface uneven.

Then carefully center punch the bolt holes. Start with a small drill bit and work your way up. 5/16" drill is tap size drill for 3/8-16 bolts which is probably what you have.

It's going to take time . Have some patience.

At this point its your only option except for a new boiler

realliveplumber

Time for a new boiler

MikeAmann

He is not done yet. Do what @EBEBRATT-Ed said to.
If you are successful, you should be able to save this boiler.
The deciding factor will be how much work do you want to put into this?
Do you absolutely have to have the tankless coil? You can have a laser CNC cut piece of stainless steel cut to block it off for good.

hadeone

MikeAmann said:

He is not done yet. Do what @EBEBRATT-Ed said to. If you are successful, you should be able to save this boiler. The deciding factor will be how much work do you want to put into this? Do you absolutely have to have the tankless coil? You can have a laser CNC cut piece of stainless steel cut to block it off for good.

I already have the replacement coil but im thinking to make a plate for simplicity.  Why does it have to be CNC cut?  I have the gasket from the new coil that I can use as a template to cut the outline and drill holes

realliveplumber

MikeAmann said:

He is not done yet. Do what @EBEBRATT-Ed said to.
If you are successful, you should be able to save this boiler.
The deciding factor will be how much work do you want to put into this?
Do you absolutely have to have the tankless coil? You can have a laser CNC cut piece of stainless steel cut to block it off for good.

Are you kidding? Did you look at the photos? There is no resemblance of a mating surface for a anything, let alone a gasket, to seal to.

There is practically nothing left of the tie bolt.

That boiler has exceeded its life expectancy. It needs to be replaced. Now is the time to do it, not in January.

Its time to stop playing, replace it.

MikeAmann

hadeone said:

MikeAmann said:

He is not done yet. Do what @EBEBRATT-Ed said to.
If you are successful, you should be able to save this boiler.
The deciding factor will be how much work do you want to put into this?
Do you absolutely have to have the tankless coil? You can have a laser CNC cut piece of stainless steel cut to block it off for good.

I already have the replacement coil but im thinking to make a plate for simplicity.  Why does it have to be CNC cut?  I have the gasket from the new coil that I can use as a template to cut the outline and drill holes

Yes, you can do it that way too. It will all depend on what is left of the mating surface after you clean it up.

hadeone

realliveplumber said:

MikeAmann said:

He is not done yet. Do what @EBEBRATT-Ed said to.
If you are successful, you should be able to save this boiler.
The deciding factor will be how much work do you want to put into this?
Do you absolutely have to have the tankless coil? You can have a laser CNC cut piece of stainless steel cut to block it off for good.

Are you kidding? Did you look at the photos? There is no resemblance of a mating surface for a anything, let alone a gasket, to seal to.

There is practically nothing left of the tie bolt.

That boiler has exceeded its life expectancy. It needs to be replaced. Now is the time to do it, not in January.

Its time to stop playing, replace it.

What boiler would you recommend to replace this EG-45? If I wanted to keep using the baseboard what other options are there besides another boiler with a tankless coil set up? Thanks

mattmia2

I think you could get that to seal with rtv, but i think it is also likely to start leaking somewhere else soon, I was kind of waiting for someone with more experience than I have to say that. If it is fin tube baseboard and the vent is in good shape i'd go with another CI boiler and an indirect.

STEAM DOCTOR

If the baseboard is all in the basement, and the piping is all below the water line, then there is no reason in the world to use a coil.