DEAD WRONG

Mad Dog_2

Safeties, Guards, P.P.E, limit controls and L.W.C.Os are great inventions that have saved Life, Limb, eyes...  My contention is that plumbing, heating and all trades were a whole lot tougher, and required a higher degree of skill & competence: What takes more skill...Using a Hickey to bend a 5 part offset bend on a 10 foot stick of EMT or running BX?  Using Chrome-Plated  Lavatory faucet goosenecks or SS Flexes? Using a Ridgid Tubing bender on 3/8" Copper tubing for perfect 45 degree offsets or SS Flexes?  Soft Soldering or brazing a 2" Copper Joint or Propress? Shark bites? SS Crimp Pex clamps? Wiping a Red Brass soldering nipple in to a 4" Lead bend? Or Using No-Hub fittings? 

Whether you think the old methods are archaic,  Neanderthal and stupid is immaterial.  I think you're in a very small minority of people that REFUSE to concede those technologies require a much higher level of hand-on skills and craftsmanship.  Methods have been made easier for speed of install and also catering to DIYers which is what it is...."progress." ??

That's commendable that you have successfully installed screw pipe, Chris. You're a Handy DIYer.   This does not make you a Plumber.  

I'll take the smell of Horse Manure over Carbon Monoxide Smog from Vehicles and trucks 🚚 any day...Then again I am a Horseman...biased toward them..   Mad Dog 🐕 

STEAM DOCTOR

@Mad Dog_2. I agree with much of what you say. But let's try to keep the personal stuff out of this. Let's focus on subject matter at hand. I think that @ChrisJ was raising a point worth discussing. Whether he is right or wrong or it is impossible to determine. It's obvious that the plumbing work was much much more difficult back in the day. No discussion about that. But that does not inherently mean that the plumbers were better. A good plumber is one who does his work meticulously and does not take shortcuts. The fact that the plumbers had to work harder back then, does not mean that they did not cut corners or take shortcuts. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. I am not saying. But there are two very different points going on over here.

hot_rod

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Plumbing and heating has gotten eaisier .........or has it?

Yes we have propress, pex and copper tubing instead of galvanized or black threaded and PVC and ABS with no hub instead of cast iron. We have electric pipe threaders and machines to dig trenches.

But todays workers probably can do a complete install in much less time than the Dead Men due to all the labor saving devices but then they rush to the next job so they work as hard as ever

$$
If they charge the right price they don't need to rush from one to the next.
No doubt the big shops keep the install crews hoping when the phone is ringing.

Smaller specialists like @Mad Dog_2 can be selective and price to make it possible to fish every other day

ChrisJ

There are several people on this forum I'll put up against any plumber / heating guy from 100-200 years ago.

Not only are they harder working, they're also more educated and more skilled.

Charlie from wmass

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Two pipe air vent system. I have not seen many of them out there, but from what I've read and from what I've seen here on the Wall, seems that they were universally considered to be a flop. Despite the fact that they were initiated and installed by the Deadmen.

Whoever said they were a flop? They only quit using them because they were able to do it cheaper with one pipe. I have never worked on a two pipe air vent system that when I got done did not work exceptionally well. They are simple have very few mechanical parts and allow for good separation of steam and condensate as well as balancing of the system.

Mad Dog_2

Steam Doctor..I can only speak for myself....it's nothing personal on my end...its philosophical debate.  I commended you for your humble approach.  It's appreciated.  Not everyone can comport themselves this way and have an agenda. 

I know a decent amount (on one hand) of excellent plumbing and heating practicioners aside from here.  What you all are failing to realize is that this place is an exception to the rule.  Only the best generally post their work here.  The Best And Brightest comment, critique and share  here. This place is a bastion of the mechanical trades ...a very special place.  

I can't speak for anyone else, but my typical month brings me through every imaginable type of structure and occupancy..from High Rises in NYC, Historic Brownstones, Levitt Homes, Old Farmhouses, Housing Projects, residential apartments, Suburban homes.  Industrial processing facilities, the whole 9.

Over the last 40 years in the trades I have seen a precipitous decline in Craftsmanship.  I've seen very little Hack Work Pre-1970 work.  Gotta keep it real.  With the introduction of PVC especially, anyone with a Hacksaw and Glue began running amok.  It's in inverse situation: I've seen very few Hack jobs done before that point in time and conversely, very few really nice sqaured away jobs after that point. Generally, actual Licensed plumbers and boiler guys are doing the better work, but even that is not that common, today. 

I am not alone in my opinions on this, I just happen to be very vocal about it because I care deeply about it.  Many who agree with me and don't care to post tell me "Why Bother...what're ya gonna do?  Its over...no one cares anymore" ...et cetera.
I don't care if I'm the Last of The Mohicans...I'm going to uphold my Old School standards with modern improvements when they prove out. 

Chris, it's really not very fair to disparage our tradesmen of yesteryear.  You didn't know them or work alongside them, apparently.  I was actually privileged to have had that honor early in my life and career.  I work and see work done by  today's crop as well.  There ARE exceptions, of course, but fine craftsmanship is not the norm today...commercial, residential, industrial, institutionally. 

So, I have worked with the Old timers and the neophytes.  Most, except a small percentage, of the younger plumbers today  could not hang with those guys.  It gives me no pleasure to say this.  It actually bothers me a great deal.  When a 55 year old with a belly has to lie down in a trench, or go in to a nasty crawlspace, or unplug a backing up sewer, or climb a tall ladder,  because the youngsters refuse,  the generational chasm is very wide. Respectfully, Mad Dog 🐕 

The Steam Whisperer

Having just spent last weekend continuing to pipe up my new heating system for my home that I've designed to operate both as a modified minitube 2-pipe steam system, or a 2 pipe hot water system and getting the copper water lines in place, it is really clear how much easier copper piping is than threaded steel for install. 2 inch steel main with 1 1/4 to 1/2 inch branches stubbed out for the 3/8 soft copper connections gives your math and muscles both a work out. I do believe that quality work in the past required more effort than today. Our materials make it easier to do quality work, but the drive still needs to be there. I do especially believe, however, that the dead men engineers ( those prior to WW II) really knew thier fields much better than what is seen around today. Heating systems that provide exceptionally comfort and efficiency without use of any advanced electronic controls, etc. are the dead engineers legacy. The most top of mind examples for me are the large 5 story bare brick wall, single pane steel hopper windowed former manufacturing plant that Terry takes care of in Cleveland. Leaky R-1 windows, brick R-2 walls equipped with steam heating perimeter radiator system heated continuous for artist spaces that uses about the same energy per sq. foot for heating as our most efficient typical new homes. The old guys seemed to know something we haven't rediscoverd yet. The other is older Kewanee and Pacific boilers which, when reading their literature, specifically talk about the advantages of large radiant transfer surfaces in the firebox. We have taken these boilers and switched out a modern on/off gas power burner with a modulating gas radiant burner and see 30% reductions in fuel usage with similiar full fire combustion readings. Something is going on which the old engineers knew which we are missing today.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

Steamhead said: "Those early oil burners were scary as well as inefficient. But back then, 6 weeks was better than 2 weeks.

That, BTW, is why we have burner emergency switches. Back then, the high-pressure oil burner we know today was one of several basic types. Low-pressure burners such as the Winkler (an engineering masterpiece if there ever was one) GE and Williams (less so) as well as vaporizing pot-type burners (scary) competed for dominance. The latter type was known for causing chimney fires.

So the Code authorities started requiring a means of cutting power to the burner without going into the boiler room, in case something went sideways. This took the form of a switch at the entrance to the boiler area, meaning you didn't have to comb through a fuse panel to find the one for the burner. However, in a lot of cases (at least around here) the emergency switch was installed at the outside basement door rather than the inside stairway, so if you saw a problem from the top of the steps you had to go down and over to the outside door to flip the switch.

I'm sure the Dead Men would have killed for the clean, efficient flame-retention oil burners of today. "



What efficiency did they typically run when working correctly?

According to Frank Graham and Charles Burkhardt, anywhere from 40% (many round boilers) to 70% or so.

mattmia2

Orangeburg as sewer pipe was not a good idea.

STEAM DOCTOR

Charlie from wmass said:

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Two pipe air vent system. I have not seen many of them out there, but from what I've read and from what I've seen here on the Wall, seems that they were universally considered to be a flop. Despite the fact that they were initiated and installed by the Deadmen.

Whoever said they were a flop? They only quit using them because they were able to do it cheaper with one pipe. I have never worked on a two pipe air vent system that when I got done did not work exceptionally well. They are simple have very few mechanical parts and allow for good separation of steam and condensate as well as balancing of the system.

I was just quoting Lost Art, which says they were very hard to control,prone to water hammer and by 1934, the heating industry considered these systems long obsolete 

Mad Dog_2

Orangeburg was never sold or advertised as a Top Notch, Quality product.  It was "The Builders Special" installed by G.C.s and outdoor  Site Work, predominantly.  It was the "PVC" Flex Supply of its day.  Real plumbers knew it was cheesy, cardboard-Tar Pipe.  

Speed and economy are the Hallmarks of A Market system.  Many of the "new" technologies and systems turned out to be pretty durable like Soldered copper pipe and fittings, No-Hub Cast Iron for DWV, Copper DWV (my favorite system till this day!). Wirsbo/Uponor Pex Propex system.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Chris J:  you wrote... "Not only are they harder working, but they are more educated and more skilled."  

Harder working 💪??? There was no welfare state as we know it  back then, nor was there unemployment insurance. You didn't work hard, you didn't eat.  Most lived in Cold Water Flats, tenements. They survived the Great Depression on stale bread. Many worked 6 or 7 days a week, 12-14 hours a day, including both sets of my Grandparents and My father.  

More educated 📚??? Basic Reading, Writing ✍ and Arithmetic was ingrained in ALL schools and the average Eight Grader was far more articulate, could write ✍ neat cursive, do Math calculations all day long..than today's average College Graduate. 

Yes! They could actually make change for you and not need the Electronic Cash Register to tell them what to give you  back. Civics and History, State Capitols, Product Maps, they knew this inside and out.  They could READ Chris! And they did..Audels great books, many of the great books Dan and Steamhead Refer to and I have a healthy collection of. 

I find the polar opposite, today's plumbers may have some Community College..even a Bachelors (almost always in an unrelated Field) which is a nice feather in their cap. Education is NEVER a waste. I find the AVERAGE plumber/boiler guys, however, don't read much...books or magazines, or go out of their way to take seminars and classes.  If its free, they might go.  

Old timers were usually educated IN THEIR FIELD of Study via Union & open to the Public  trade schools like Delahanty...or BOCES type programs..The General Society (Mechanics Institute). They also Read some of those same books Dan talks about.  That generation was anything BUT  Inarticulate, uneducated rubes!

More Skilled?? Really? You'll have to edify us here...Hand to hand skills? Not buying that... Most were very skilled and talented Artisans with great pride..Golden Hands as they called them.. Knowing basic 🖥 computer skills, Programming an electronic shower body ot a Tekmar Controls?? Ok, but they were capable of learning that if it was available at the time.  

What requires more skill?? Having to solder a 2" Copper joint, upside down and up against a shaft wall (and not leak!) Or "pressing" it?  Done both...no contest. Et al..  

There were great plumbers back then and today, just not in the Great numbers that were common yesterday.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Aaron...As Dan Said, " The Lost Art " came out more than 30 years ago. I got the first pressing and devoured it...many times since then.  I think I've owned 6 copies.  Dan was chronicling the History of Steam Heat and the key stages at which it improved and took great leaps foward.  That's not to say, those original systems were total crap and should be ripped out...they just improved on it.  They provided good heat and still do.  As long as venting, pitch and operating pressures are in line.  

I cannot think of anything of any great consequence that has changed or been drastically wrong since the Original blew us all away in 1992. Peace ✌ ☮  🕊 Mad Dog  🐕 

Charlie from wmass

I was just quoting Lost Art, which says they were very hard to control,prone to water hammer and by 1934, the heating industry considered these systems long obsolete 

We don't always have the same life experience as Dan had as he wrote the book. Taking the advice from him in properly controlling steam pressure and piping the returns as required they work great. The ability to see the biases even in great books is an important skill in reading. The ability to realise even the brightest minds can form opinions that are later wrong or at least mistaken due to the world they gathered their information from is called growth. I would say most old timers I knew worth their salt would embrace the better of the modern technology as they were intelligent people who by their nature embraced forward progress. I say this as they lived in cold water flats yet knew enough to work to build places like Levittown or whatever you're local post World War II development was. My Father's generation was more liberal, and more progressive at the blue collar level than the current blue collar generation. Their biggest mistake, not reminding the next generation why being blue collar didn't mean you didn't need to be literate. 

STEAM DOCTOR

@DanHolohan @Mad Dog_2 @Charlie from wmass @ everyone else.  Would be awesome to invent a time machine. So we could sit in the boardrooms with the Deadmen, as they discussed and contemplated these new ingenuities. To actually go out in the field with them. And maybe most importantly, to let them know how their innovations and their hard work, stood up to the test of time!!!

WMno57

Mad Dog_2 said:

I'll take the smell of Horse Manure over Carbon Monoxide & Smog from Vehicles and trucks 🚚 any day.

If you like the smell of horse poo, check out Michigan's Mackinac (pronounced MAK-ə-naw) Island. No cars or trucks allowed!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackinac_Island
Last time I was there, I sneezed the entire day. I suspect I was allergic to something in the horse's diet that went through their digestive tracks, and was then ground into a fine powder and atmospherically dispersed by hooves, bicycle tires, and touron's feet.
Green and sustainable, just like medieval Europe!

Charlie from wmass

STEAM DOCTOR said:

@DanHolohan @Mad Dog_2 @Charlie from wmass @ everyone else.  Would be awesome to invent a time machine. So we could sit in the boardrooms with the Deadmen, as they discussed and contemplated these new ingenuities. To actually go out in the field with them. And maybe most importantly, to let them know how their innovations and their hard work, stood up to the test of time!!!

It would be, how can we do this cheaper? Why do these works want so much money? Can't we get this made cheaper? How do I know this is the questions they would have? It's simple because it is a world that they created and we have to live in. They weren't looking to make systems that lasted 100 years. If they were everybody would have gravity hot water heating systems. Steam systems were designed to be the cheapest alternative to hot water systems. The radiators are a third smaller the pipes are smaller and the quality of workmanship on the installation is less.

ChrisJ

Why do so many think "years ago" everyone cared about pride, and doing the right thing and that money played no roll in anything? Apparently greed and laziness are recent things?

There's a reason Titanic's quality was lacking and the ship didn't have enough lifeboats and it's not because the people in charge didn't understand what they were doing. It wasn't due to ignorance or their ability at the time.


Just like now, years ago you had people that took pride in their work and did a good job. But at the same time you still had lazy people, you still had greedy people. Nothing has changed.

Saying someone is any less of a plumber or less skilled because they use pex or propress is wrong. You use the tools you have to get the job done in a reasonable amount of time and cost. That's no different than it ever has been.

Charlie from wmass

 Nostalgia. The use of gate valves is what bothers me by the deadmen. Especially the cheap ones. 

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

......... Just like now, years ago you had people that took pride in their work and did a good job. But at the same time you still had lazy people, you still had greedy people. Nothing has changed.....

Back then, if you were that lazy you lost your job.

Charlie from wmass

Or became shop steward

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

ChrisJ said:

......... Just like now, years ago you had people that took pride in their work and did a good job. But at the same time you still had lazy people, you still had greedy people. Nothing has changed.....

Back then, if you were that lazy you lost your job.

Still do in many cases.
For example, do you think being lazy lasts long with Amazon?

I didn't specify an amount of lazy but, if people get away with being more lazy now why is that?

STEAM DOCTOR

I can only speak to the plumbing/heating side of things. I go into a lot of old  houses. Most of the old stuff, was properly installed. Very rarely see the money business. There is a lot of monkey business/shortcuts in the newer work. More in the renovation end than in the new construction (although I do see it in the new construction as well, just not as common).  I was in house  today that had some renovations done. Gas dryer vent was venting into the new extension. Indoors. Washing machine drain did not have a trap. About 10 ft of flex gas line. Maybe a little more. No separate gas shut off for the dryer. Dishwasher piping was buried somewhere. Extension cords galore. This is just one example. See crazy stuff all the time. Almost never from the dead men. Obviously a small sample size. Just saying.

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

I can only speak to the plumbing/heating side of things. I go into a lot of old  houses. Most of the old stuff, was properly installed. Very rarely see the money business. There is a lot of money business/shortcuts in the newer work. More in the renovation end than in the new construction (although I do see it in the new construction as well, just not as common).  I was in house  today that had some renovations done. Gas dryer vent was venting into the new extension. Indoors. Washing machine drain did not have a trap. About 10 ft of flex gas line. Maybe a little more. No separate gas shut off for the dryer. Dishwasher piping was buried somewhere. Extension cords galore. This is just one example. See crazy stuff all the time. Almost never from the dead men. Obviously a small sample size. Just saying.

My own house is a bit odd.
Everything before a certain date was very well. It seems like the quality of work done to it after around 1910 was much worse.

But I think that also has to do with the guy who owned it, built it.
But some of the later stuff done....Oh boy......

STEAM DOCTOR

A very high percentage of the houses that I go to, were built world war two time or earlier. The original stuff is always quality. Stuff after that not so much so.

Mad Dog_2

Exactly what I have seen Aaron.  Very rarely,  I will come across a Jack Leg-Stumble Bum Hack job, Ham n Egger shoemaker job  on Cast Iron Bell & Spigot.  I always do a little detective 🕵️‍♂️ work and it was always a Laborer or GC who probably 
"Procured" the materials from the job site he was on and winged it. Il'l try to dig up some pictures, but in short, the Joints are always cock-eyed and the pipe has way too much pitch.  

On domestic water, you'll see things like Commercial Flushometers where they don't belong (3/4" Copper water service) or way oversized pipe..i.e., anything that's not nailed down on the job site. As a Worker and Foreman on Large Projects, like JFK Airport, Manhattan Skyscrapers, et cetera we'd always catch...The Laborers for some reason, walking off with 5 & 6"  Husky Couplings,  Large Area & roof drains, et cetera...things that don't belong in residential....but its FREE!  If other trades, ask us nicely, we will always oblige with in reason..Not Giving you 3 Commercial Faucets!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

No one, including me, said a Person is LESS skilled BECAUSE they use Pex or Propress. I use them today as well.  What I DID say is that GREATER skill is required to do the Old School connections and pipe.  Is a young modern, plumber CAPABLE of doing Old School work? Absolutely...if they CHOOSE to.

Fine Craftsmanship is a DECISION one makes each moment of the installation:
"Should I straighten this out so its perfectly plumb, or do I wanna go to Lunch, dinner, the beach ⛱,  home 🏡? Should I hit that solder joint again to get the grapes 🍇 off it..even though its going behind a wall? Should I install an extra valve even though I'm not going to charge for it? (Because its the right thing to do!).  Meticulous pride in Craftsmanship transcends Space and Time....We have always had the freedom of choice and we always will 150 years ago or now.....Mad Dog 

Lance

Remember this, nothing has changed from than to today. There are installed systems right and many wrong from application to commissioning. The only difference is the Wanabees cheat their education, their time and their clients, not intentionally unless you consider not getting trained and educated, intentional. What has changed is clients are getting smarter and mfgs. are building more installer proof systems. Some like AO Smith will not let the installer start up the system if they want to keep it warrantied. After all what average installer can afford to replace a $20,000.00 piece of equipment from stupidity. And of course, on this site we are constantly being educated as to how it can be wrong. If you are here, you are among those who want to do it right.

DanHolohan

How it was (worth a read).
https://www.ualocal1.org/history.aspx

Mad Dog_2

That was excellent Dan.  Thank you for the History Lesson!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Gordo

It seems the Dead Men (and many Live Men) very seldom reamed their pipes after cutting.
Some things never change.

ChrisJ

Gordo said:

It seems the Dead Men (and many Live Men) very seldom reamed their pipes after cutting. Some things never change.

Isn't there also something about guys using straight thread couplers on steam pipes instead of proper couplers?  I know at least one in my house seems to be awfully thin and does not look like a normal coupler to me.  

I'd take a picture but the only one I know where it is, is under melamine insulation in the kitchen.  I'm sure there's others but that's the only one I used to stair at while eating.

I think @Steamhead was who brought it up years ago.  I thought he called them thread protectors but my memory stinks anymore.

Charlie from wmass

They didn't just use them on steam they frequently used them on gas piping also. I was just at a job yesterday they had three of them in the same closet.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

They didn't just use them on steam they frequently used them on gas piping also. I was just at a job yesterday they had three of them in the same closet.

What are they conduit couplers?

Charlie from wmass

They're known as merchant couplings or thread protectors. 

EdTheHeaterMan

DanHolohan said:

I continue to learn. And I try to teach. 😉

As long as you continue to talk I will continue to learn

ttekushan_3

@STEAM DOCTOR this is an interesting subject. However, I work with three two pipe air vent systems, newest from 1885, complete with “gun barrel” (eg nason or bundy) radiators locally manufactured and they are a delight. They’re quiet and trouble free (well NOW they are after the vented returns were corrected and returned to original design).

One can’t assume that the returns are instantly filled with steam. They aren’t. Once everything hits saturation, yes steam enters the returns but by that time the radiator vents are all closed and the radiators heating. The ONLY thing to bear in mind is that you just can’t shut off the supply valve and expect to get no heat at all from a radiator but that’s why the dead men thoughtfully provided a shutoff valve on the return connection as well. 

I’m terms of being a flop, it wasn’t. Very soon thereafter the radiator trap was developed and it made for easier plumbing and single valve control. 

Interestingly, one site under my care has a few Danfoss valves on the inlets and they actually work well enough to control the room temps, as most cycles are short enough that the returns are effectively lower pressure than supply. So it works, and quite well!

Interesting subject tho

ttekushan_3

Okay. I’ve got one. But this is plumbing related but it’s a question I’ve had for a long time. 

Drum traps. 

Why a century of drum traps in bathtub drains? For eons in the early plumbing era (and not so early) this was done everywhere. And then this trap’s outlet travelled nearly horizontally (it seems) to the stack. So there is minimal static height and an obstructive trap that on top of it seems to hold an air bubble at its highest point to erase the modest pressure drop across it just to minimize flow. And it’s convenient screw on top fuses in place.  Arrrg! 

The only reliable way of keeping it flowing okay is to take a nice Epsom salt bath whenever it slows up. 

I presume when these became the standard most tubs were not showers as well, so maybe no one noticed. 

I question its origins and the wisdom of their use quite often. Practically every morning. 

Mad Dog_2

Many codes prohibit Drum traps but we see tons of them in The 5 Boros and older Villages of Long Island 🏝,.   Yes, they are called thread protectors and mechant couplings and they usually come on the ends of new screw pipe to prevent damage... 21 footers too.  Yes, they ARE skinny and don't "look" right and I would never use one especially on gas, but I've never seen them leaking even under a gas pressure test.  

In some of the buildings I work in with two pipe air vent systems that are a  hybrid with with Thermostatic & F & T traps a mish mosh over the years...I sometimes restore back to original just to keep it simple so plumbers are me can easily follow and repair...In case you didn't notice.. Steam traps and Two Pipe steam baffles the HECK out of the average plumber.  In my Old Hitchcock Farmhouse full gut renovation of 2000-2003, I have the one large Nason Radiator in the Parlor that is two pipe...all the rest are one pipe.  I could of install a trap, but I was thinking down the line...for some guy.  Instead, I ran the return to a Loop Seal Below with full access in a closet. It works silently.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2