DEAD WRONG

Mad Dog_2

My pride and Joy...On the Deadmen and Dan's Books 📚.   These men were brilliant, pragmatic thinkers in THEIR day and are brilliant TODAY! Query, question, challenge as much as you wish.I've been doing that the last 40 years.....maybe you'll find a major flaw...Good luck with that....I really haven't...These men had a COMMAND of the Physics, Science, and practicalities of plumbing and heating systems. "We" (Plumbers since time immemorial) were always open to improvements of speed or working with lower pressure, piping, et cetera...A Free Market encourages this...

  We've embraced Mod Cons for example and safeties like Roll out switches, blocked vent switches, O.S.Vs, Carbon Monoxide monitors, Anti-scald mixing valves, et cetera...all great improvements on a WINNING basic idea of Steam Heat or Hydronic..or plumbing.Very few industry altering changes to the original theories...just very good IMPROVEMENTS...The Dead Men and Holohan will always be on the Mount Rushmore of our trade...that lofty and exalted,  Intellectual pedestal to me.....Mad Dog 🐕 

JUGHNE

Merchant couplings AKA thread protectors.....I have seen and have used on low pressure gas and steam piping.

Never did buy any as they were "free" on each length of pipe.

So now I mostly use the "proper" couplings.

The Merchant ones are not tapered inside. You easily verify this by laying a straight edge, such as a wood pencil, inside on the threads. Flat and level line.

The seal is made by the taper of the male pipe end, this allows you to run the pipe farther into the coupling with the same results.

There is a popular steamer Utuber who utilizes this feature to shorten or lengthen a short pipe made up of 2 nipples. If it was a problem for him, I doubt if it would be shown.

Our lumber yard, which threads pipe for the rural people, sells the Merchant couplings they gain from pipe lengths, to be used for water lines. Haven't heard of problems.

Mad Dog_2

I'd use em in a pinch buy never on Gas   mad dog 🐕 

Charlie from wmass

I have had them installed in my own home previous to me getting there by our local gas company. The thing leaked. It no longer exists in my home. If I show up on a job and somebody used one it gets replaced with the proper coupling or I do not do the job. The only thing that I have used them for was to make nipple chucks for cutting short nipples what I was too young and dumb to buy a proper nipple chuck.  Using merchant company, I'm still shaking my head guys, really!

Mad Dog_2

If you have to do a gas pressure test for an inspection in a home and I see those, its ALL comin out.   Cheaper in the end  mad Dog 🐕 

MikeL_2

Mad Dog_2 said:

Orangeburg was never sold or advertised as a Top Notch, Quality product.  It was "The Builders Special" installed by G.C.s and outdoor  Site Work, predominantly.  It was the "PVC" Flex Supply of its day.  Real plumbers knew it was cheesy, cardboard-Tar Pipe.  

Speed and economy are the Hallmarks of A Market system.  Many of the "new" technologies and systems turned out to be pretty durable like Soldered copper pipe and fittings, No-Hub Cast Iron for DWV, Copper DWV (my favorite system till this day!). Wirsbo/Uponor Pex Propex system.  Mad Dog 🐕 

    I've seen orangeburg outlast cast iron and still come across it in homes built in the 1940's & 50's.
    In my experience, it was used most often on the outlet side of septic tanks; I think orangeburg was plentiful right after WW2 & was easier to install compared to terracotta or clay.
    While I'm not a big fan of orangeburg, I hope the miles of pipe I've installed will last 75 years.
   

mattmia2

Mine is about 73 years old. 75 is young for sewer piping.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

Mine is about 73 years old. 75 is young for sewer piping.

My cast iron is 113 and it's on its last legs.  Seeping in a few spots.

I'll be ripping it out very soon.

Mad Dog_2

Vitrified clay is the best.  Can last many hundreds of years if its protected from crushing. Its smooth as a baby's bottom, super resistant to acids and chemicals.  NYC is  back to using it again on new sewers.  

My Building House sewer, which starts 5 feet past the foundation wall, is 6" and in pristine condition..no roots, no dips, .I've camered' it.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Charlie from wmass

And this shows regional differences in preferences in plumbing. The only thing I have found worse than clay pipe is Orangeburg. Both are extremely susceptible to invasion by roots and both crush more easily than I feel they should. Especially for the application they are made for. Schedule 40 PVC will outlast all of these things. I have no proof yet as it has not been on the market for a hundred and twenty years. The only times I've had a damaged as sewer lines underground direct mechanical damage. Well I mean by that is the backhoe ripped out. Cast iron is awesome as long as people don't allow their fixtures to drip or run as it needs to dry out to prevent corrosion. My house was built in 1919 like most of the houses in Springfield Massachusetts. The drainage pipes are reaching the end of their life. Houses that have been rental properties for a long time the drainage is well past its life fortunately our house has always been owner occupied in at least one unit. As they say everything has its place. Orangeburg in the rolloff dumpster. 

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

And this shows regional differences in preferences in plumbing. The only thing I have found worse than clay pipe is Orangeburg. Both are extremely susceptible to invasion by roots and both crush more easily than I feel they should. Especially for the application they are made for. Schedule 40 PVC will outlast all of these things. I have no proof yet as it has not been on the market for a hundred and twenty years. The only times I've had a damaged as sewer lines underground direct mechanical damage. Well I mean by that is the backhoe ripped out. Cast iron is awesome as long as people don't allow their fixtures to drip or run as it needs to dry out to prevent corrosion. My house was built in 1919 like most of the houses in Springfield Massachusetts. The drainage pipes are reaching the end of their life. Houses that have been rental properties for a long time the drainage is well past its life fortunately our house has always been owner occupied in at least one unit. As they say everything has its place. Orangeburg in the rolloff dumpster. 

There's regional differences as well as many people have a biased opinion which really doesn't matter in the end.

There's some PVC in my house from 1987 and it's like brand new inside and out.

JUGHNE

One would hope that NYC has a better clay pipe jointing process then we had in the 1930's.

Our entire village got a sewer system in the late 30's partially funded by the WPA program.

My rental house had a clay pipe sewer line going to the main.
It was a real tree root attraction.

Before replacing it, I was able to slip about 40' of 3" SCH 40 inside the 6" before hitting an obstruction of the joints. It was a battle to get it that far but I saved the driveway and a fine Maple tree that some dumb a$$ planted right over the top of the line 20 years ago.

The short lengths of clay was only 30-32" long with tar seals on the joints.

The village has an ongoing process of cleaning and camering the mains.
Some serious sections have been replaced. Expensive, as we have up to 15' bury on some mains.

Some houses in the 50-60's got Orangeburg as laterals and all of them are doomed to be replaced. They require annual auguring for the most part.

mattmia2

Ann Arbor I think has a process to line in place the clay main sewers to prevent having to replace most of them. Roots will get in the joints but unless it is a huge tree they can be cleaned out without destroying the pipe. Some probably has to do with the skill of the person operating the auger too. Getting rid of the tree gets rid of the roots. If clay is bedded properly and trees are avoided it lasts a very long time. I suspect corners were cut in packing and sealing the joints in a lot of installations which caused leaks and attracted roots.

Mad Dog_2

Exactly...as I said above, Clay pipe must be protected from Crushing and any pipe that is not properly joined will get root infiltration.  There is clay sewers still in use in Europe from Ancient times. Any clay pipe I have done was Lead & Oakum or Oakum and Hydraulic Cement.  Today's Clay that I've seen uses the rolling O Ring.  Easy to.install but not sure how long they will last or how well they will impede roots.  Mad Dog 

Charlie from wmass

One of the things that I mean by regional differences is that the Western part Massachusetts consists of two types of soil one is rock and the other is small pieces of broken rock. We also get deep frost I've seen it go 12 ft underneath town roads and supermarket parking lots.

DanHolohan

Charlie, please help me understand that. What is it about paving that creates that condition? I’m intrigued. Thanks. 

Charlie from wmass

DanHolohan said:

Charlie, please help me understand that. What is it about paving that creates that condition? I’m intrigued. Thanks. 

In yards and fields you have snow cover under roads you don't . Also you have salted water going through freeze thaw cycles each day. Sunny days and clears nights getting to -20°F and it powers the frost deep. The asphalt also sends heat out well overnight, think flat black radiator paint.

DanHolohan

Got it! Thanks for making me smarter. 

Mad Dog_2

Yup...a big thermal ground-heave wreaks havoc on pipes and roadways.. Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Charlie..What is Springfield Mass like these days? Never been through there. Historical district?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Charlie from wmass

Mad Dog_2 said:

Charlie..What is Springfield Mass like these days? Never been through there. Historical district?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Apparently the deadliest city in Massachusetts. Most violent crime per capital for our state. Most of the central city was built just before the big crash. Insurance companies and manufacturing built it. We had Willies Overland, Indian Motorcycle, and Smith and Wesson. Smith and Wesson because they are tired of paying living wages and are blaming it on stricter gun laws so they are moving South to exploit cheaper labor. Work is taking me all over New England as no one wants to read the directions or they think they are smarter than the people who designed the equipment. If I had 7 children willing to follow me into the trade I could do everything that needs done. I also wish people quit confusing fixing steam systems with saving garbage boilers. 

Mad Dog_2

Must have been grand in its Heyday...A Once great City...It will turn around someday...hopefully!!  Bushwick Brooklyn and Troy New York have turned it around...Its also amazing that is was a major hub for New England Organized Crime.  I was astonished when I read  this a a few years, ago.  Who would think it??  That's New Yorkers...we think we are the Center of the Universe! Ha ha 😂 🤣 😆 😄 .  Now you want to me me visit.  Mad Dog 🐕