DEAD WRONG

STEAM DOCTOR

Many of us here, myself included, have made careers off the shoulders and backs of the dead men. The dead men were mostly starting with no precedent and had  nothing but  ingenuity and hard work. The respect that we must have for them, and the gratitude that we owe them, is immeasurable.

That said, the dead men were often wrong. Very often. For example, early steam boilers were running at 50 or 60 PSI. Boilers were blowing up once every 2 to 3 days in the United States. The early dead men built their boilers with no equalizer and no Hartford loop. Combustion on early boilers, was hideous and was certainly unacceptable by today's standards. Early coal boilers required cleaning soot off walls every 2 weeks. Early oil boilers required cleaning soot off all every 6 weeks. 

There is certainly no blame involved, as a technology was in its infant stages and still developing.

That said, the big question is, which of the dead men's doings or teachings, do you consider "DEAD WRONG"?

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Many of us here, myself included, have made careers off the shoulders and backs of the dead men. The dead men were mostly starting with no precedent and had  nothing but  ingenuity and hard work. The respect that we must have for them, and the gratitude that we owe them, is immeasurable.

That said, the dead men were often wrong. Very often. For example, early steam boilers were running at 50 or 60 PSI. Boilers were blowing up once every 2 to 3 days in the United States. The early dead men built their boilers with no equalizer and no Hartford loop. Combustion on early boilers, was hideous and was certainly unacceptable by today's standards. Early coal boilers required cleaning soot off walls every 2 weeks. Early oil boilers required cleaning soot off all every 6 weeks. 

There is certainly no blame involved, as a technology was in its infant stages and still developing.

That said, the big question is, which of the dead men's doings or teachings, do you consider "DEAD WRONG"?

You feel steam boilers were in their infant stages in the early 1900s?
What heating boilers were running 50-60 PSI back then?

STEAM DOCTOR

STEAM DOCTOR

Two pipe air vent system. I have not seen many of them out there, but from what I've read and from what I've seen here on the Wall, seems that they were universally considered to be a flop. Despite the fact that they were initiated and installed by the Deadmen.

STEAM DOCTOR

Just to reiterate, I love and respect the Deadmen. But we must question everyone, including the Deadmen.

Steamhead

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Two pipe air vent system. I have not seen many of them out there, but from what I've read and from what I've seen here on the Wall, seems that they were universally considered to be a flop. Despite the fact that they were initiated and installed by the Deadmen.

Vent the mains quickly (NOT the dry returns) and run very low pressure- Vaporstat territory- and 95% of problems with these systems go away.

STEAM DOCTOR

STEAM DOCTOR

The original two pipe , air vent system was a major flop. Steam would enter the supply and return sides. Invented by and installed by the Deadmen. Big flop. Was improved by the Deadmen who followed. 

mattmia2

If someone changed the boiler to one with a lower water line and those water seals between each individual return went away you'd have a problem.

JUGHNE

Two pipe air vent system (some of them must have worked) was just waiting for rad traps to be invented.

They became commonly available and the 2 pipe air vent method went away.

Just a matter of working with what you had.

STEAM DOCTOR

Thanks for all the thought provoking comments. Any other ideas, for Dead Wrong things, by the Deadmen?

DanHolohan

The two-pipe, air-vent system is in The General Society of Mechanics and Tradesmen of the City of New York. They installed it in 1890 and it’s still running like a champ. No noise, even heat, and it got high grades on City inspection. Far from a flop. 

STEAM DOCTOR

How can it possibly work with steam entering the radiator from two different sides?

ChrisJ

@STEAM DOCTOR interesting, I forgot that part.

However steam boilers in general were very matured by the 1900s. We had very good 3 pass boilers etc.

Look at how impressive steam engines were by even 1912. The Titanic and sister ships running quadruple pass engines (triple expansion + the turbine) were the 4th expansion was in a vacuum on both sides producing 16,000hp @ 165 rpm.

STEAM DOCTOR

Doesn't that violate the first rule of steam heating? High pressure goes to low pressure always?

STEAM DOCTOR

Is this particular variation, utilizing a separate wet return for the return side?

STEAM DOCTOR

ChrisJ said:

@STEAM DOCTOR interesting, I forgot that part.


However steam boilers in general were very matured by the 1900s.  We had very good 3 pass boilers etc.

Look at how impressive steam engines were by even 1912.  The Titanic and sister ships running quadruple pass engines (triple expansion + the turbine) were the 4th expansion was in a vacuum on both sides producing 16,000hp @ 165 rpm.

Somewhere on this site, probably in the museum section, there's an advertisement from the late 1920s. Promoting the virtues of oil over coal. One of the benefits that they list, is that with oil you only need to scrub the soot off the walls once every 6 weeks, as opposed to with coal, it's every two weeks. Can't really blame the Deadmen, but would certainly say that they were wrong in considering this acceptable. Or to put it more precisely, that is one aspect of the Deadmen's work, that we would never try to emulate. Not everything that the dead men did back then, is acceptable in 2023.

DanHolohan

It works by pressure differential, created by the different pipe sizes. It’s elegantly simple. I must defend it. Go to 20 West 44th Street and see for yourself. We made a few corrections when I arrived and cut the ConEd steam bill by 43%. 

STEAM DOCTOR

Very interesting. In Lost Art, says clearly,that these systems did not work well. I guess this was the exception to the rule? Better design?

DanHolohan

I continue to learn. And I try to teach. 😉

STEAM DOCTOR

Does the "Society" system utilize a separate wet return for the return side? Btw, I would love to visit. Is it open to the public,do I need to make an appointment?

STEAM DOCTOR

Also, what improvements did you make @DanHolohan?

DanHolohan

https://heatinghelp.com/blog/saving-history/

STEAM DOCTOR

Awesome!!!

mattmia2

I think all the systems in TLAOSH work well if you set them up the way they were designed.

PC7060

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Does the "Society" system utilize a separate wet return for the return side? Btw, I would love to visit. Is it open to the public,do I need to make an appointment?

We called a few days ahead to arrange a visit. Everyone was very accommodating and gave a great tour of a cool old building. 

PS: be sure to add time to tour @Larry Weingarten water heater museum!

Mad Dog_2

I'm with Holohan here, I work on well over 60 of these EXACT two pipe air vent systems in operation TILL this day.  They work quietly and fine.  The radiators are gorgeous and TREMENDOUS... many over 1000lbs. I just got several back from Sandblaster and Powder-Coater.  They look straight outta the Foundry.  We'd all be fools NOT to make our own conclusions about ideas and history. STUDY YOUR HISTORY....KNOW YOUR HISTORY!!! Yours is an Honest and humble approach.

That being said, the Deadman were NOT Dead Wrong.  They WERE "Right" for their time, IN GENERAL...and for  many years beyond.   They gave us warm homes.  That in and of itself was a Watershed moment as big as the indoor toilet!   It's very easy to criticize the Inventors of anything, but THEY brought us to The Dance, Man.  The first wheels were stone and wood, right?  That accomplished great things for civilization.  Tires eventually were made of  high quality rubber, Steel Belted, White Walls, et cetera.  It's alot easier improving on the Design of ANYTHING than to dream up, create and build the original paradigm, no?  

All good..Socratic Method and spirited intellectual sparring.  My most revered credit still lies with the Early Deadman..and of course, James Watts who perfected SAFETY....Carry on, men!   Mad Dog 🐕 

STEAM DOCTOR

@Mad Dog_2. I agree 100%. The Deadmen were incredible. The more that I know, the more in awe I am of the work. I am a humble student at their feet. That said, even though they were right in their day, they were at times Dead Wrong. And of course you are right. Always easier to criticize someone else's initiative than to come up with our own. 
Back to the two pipe air vent system. The ones that you see working well, are those the early generation variation, with a shared supply and return, or the later generation with a separate wet return for the radiator returns? 
I certainly have no vendetta against two pipe air vent systems. We were never in a bad marriage together, we never fought over inheritance and we didn't even have kids on the same or opposing Little League teams!! I'm really going off of the Lost Art. Which says that the early generation two pipe air vent systems did not work well. To the point that the two pipe air vent systems were a relic of History by the 1930s. I certainly believe everyone who says that they do work well. I still am having trouble understanding why. Even with larger radiator supplies and smaller radiator returns, which caused a pressure  differential within those risers themselves, the main from which they fed, should have equalized the pressure. My ears are wide open as is my head.

DanHolohan

One thing about writing a book is that it's like giving birth to a child. Once it's done, it's out there. I wrote Lost Art 31 years ago. I thought I knew everything then. I've learned more since and I feel dumber than ever. There's always something new with the old, and age teaches humility, if you allow it to do so.

I wish I could go back 31 years and talk to that young fella who used to wear my clothes. He wasn't as smart as he thought.

STEAM DOCTOR

Realizing your own dumbness, is the key to smartness (heaven help me if my English teacher ever reads the above sentence). 

DanHolohan

STEAM DOCTOR

DanHolohan said:

One thing about writing a book is that it's like giving birth to a child. Once it's done, it's out there. I wrote Lost Art 31 years ago. I thought I knew everything then. I've learned more since and I feel dumber than ever. There's always something new with the old, and age teaches humility, if you allow it to do so. I wish I could go back 31 years and talk to that young fella who used to wear my clothes. He wasn't as smart as he thought.

I guess to summarize, even the greatest of Livemen, weren't always correct 😭🤣😭🤣😭🤣😭🤣😭🤣🤣😭

STEAM DOCTOR

Just to reiterate, my point is to always always question. Question the dead men. Question the Great Dan. But most importantly, do so humbly. Done humbly, you will learn endlessly. Done not so humbly, you will look like a stupid............And rightfully so!

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

DanHolohan said:

One thing about writing a book is that it's like giving birth to a child. Once it's done, it's out there. I wrote Lost Art 31 years ago. I thought I knew everything then. I've learned more since and I feel dumber than ever. There's always something new with the old, and age teaches humility, if you allow it to do so.

I wish I could go back 31 years and talk to that young fella who used to wear my clothes. He wasn't as smart as he thought.

I guess to summarize, even the greatest of Livemen, weren't always correct 😭🤣😭🤣😭🤣😭🤣😭🤣🤣😭

No one is or was always correct.
Especially those who are dead. Honestly, there's nothing that makes a plumber from 100 years ago any better than one today.

But,
Those that can admit they were wrong, and correct themselves based on new evidence are special in my opinion. There are many who cannot and will not.

Mad Dog_2

I'll have to disagree with you on that, Chris.
Plumbing and Heating 100 years ago and before that was MUCH MORE physically difficult.  Everything was done by hand until crude power tools came in to use later on.
Much of the work was screw pipe, all threaded with Armstrong Stock &  Dies...by hand.  Holes and trenches were chopped and dug by hand. Shields were chopped with Star-Chisels - by hand.  Cast Iron Soil Pipe was cut by chisel and hammer..  Even the best plumbers missed the chisel and pounded the lump hammer in to their poor hands often.  

P.P.E. (personal protective equipment) was many decades in the future...not even a word/phrase.  The old time plumbers that were just retiring when I entered the trade in the mid 1980s, were Barrell-Chested,  had huge, muscular hands' scarred hands (even average men),  Popeye Forearms, and a neck and shoulders like Mike Tyson.  

To me, Screw pipe is the True test a good plumber.  There is no fudging or manipulating screw pipe....either your measurements are dead on, or it ain't going together.  I've seen many plumbers struggle, including myself as an Apprenticeship, with screw pipe that was either too long or too short.  

No Hub, Bell & Spigot, PVC, PEX and CSST Trac pipe, Propress, and Copper Sweat is MUCH easier to assemble and finagle if measurements aren't dead on. It's not a knock on today's plumbers, I'm one!  But it is a tribute to them and how much tougher they had it in a day's work.  Not only was it much harder physically,  they had to be more precise and on the money. No flexes..your roughing had to be 100% Dead on...or it didn't go together and you had leaks. 

It reminds me of how grueling Soccer can be...non stop running 🏃‍♂️, cutting on a dime, some mild collisions 💥 🤣..(Modern Plumbing).  It's hard and physical enough, right?  Now try doing that while other men are trying their best to knock you down, ruck & maul over you, tearing the  ball away from you while you're trying to score. Thats Rugby 🏉 (Old Time Plumbing and Heating):
Nolo Contendre..We have it MUCH easier today. I tip my hat to the Deadmen and those that revere them for what they dealt with and overcame.  Mad Dog 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

I'll have to disagree with you on that, Chris.
Plumbing and Heating 100 years ago and before that was MUCH MORE physically difficult.  Everything was done by hand until crude power tools came in to use later on.
Much of the work was screw pipe, all threaded with Armstrong Stock &  Dies...by hand.  Holes and trenches were chopped and dug by hand. Shields were chopped with Star-Chisels - by hand.  Cast Iron Soil Pipe was cut by chisel and hammer..  Even the best plumbers missed the chisel and pounded the lump hammer in to their poor hands often.  

P.P.E. (personal protective equipment) was many decades in the future...not even a word/phrase.  The old time plumbers that were just retiring when I entered the trade in the mid 1980s, were Barrell-Chested,  had huge, muscular hands' scarred hands (even average men),  Popeye Forearms, and a neck and shoulders like Mike Tyson.  

To me, Screw pipe is the True test a good plumber.  There is no fudging or manipulating screw pipe....either your measurements are dead on, or it ain't going together.  I've seen many plumbers struggle, including myself as an Apprenticeship, with screw pipe that was either too long or too short.  

No Hub, Bell & Spigot, PVC, PEX and CSST Trac pipe, Propress, and Copper Sweat is MUCH easier to assemble and finagle if measurements aren't dead on. It's not a knock on today's plumbers, I'm one!  But it is a tribute to them and how much tougher they had it in a day's work.  Not only was it much harder physically,  they had to be more precise and on the money. No flexes..your roughing had to be 100% Dead on...or it didn't go together and you had leaks. 

It reminds me of how grueling Soccer can be...non stop running 🏃‍♂️, cutting on a dime, some mild collisions 💥 🤣..(Modern Plumbing).  It's hard and physical enough, right?  Now try doing that while other men are trying their best to knock you down, ruck & maul over you, tearing the  ball away from you while you're trying to score. Thats Rugby 🏉 (Old Time Plumbing and Heating):
Nolo Contendre..We have it MUCH easier today. I tip my hat to the Deadmen and those that revere them for what they dealt with and overcame.  Mad Dog 

So you feel having a more difficult life, and primarily more physical work, makes someone a better plumber?

They certainly had a much harder life but that in no way makes them smarter or infallible. If anything, it would make them more likely to make mistakes.


If screw joints are the true test of a good plumber, I guess I'm a good plumber. I've done quite a few that had to go back into place between an existing radiator and a steam main in several spots. That's how I ended up buying my 65R-TC.

ChrisJ

For what it's worth, when I think of the 1800s or earlier, the things that come to mind are...

No AC, hell, no fans...
Very little light at night, and likely none when you're asleep.

Window screens probably weren't terribly common overall, though I think they did exist. So, you're sleeping in a super hot, humid house, with the bugs......... Imagine people getting Yellow Fever and then having no clue how or why and watching people around you die from something mysterious?

No toilet paper.........

Horse manure smell everywhere...
Human manure smell.........

And I guess the worst of it all, tooth problems......

I don't want to live back then. I much prefer now.

DanHolohan

Let’s give a Dead Man a chance to speak:

https://heatinghelp.com/dead-men-tales/dead-men-tips/

Steamhead

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Early oil boilers required cleaning soot off all every 6 weeks.

Those early oil burners were scary as well as inefficient. But back then, 6 weeks was better than 2 weeks.

That, BTW, is why we have burner emergency switches. Back then, the high-pressure oil burner we know today was one of several basic types. Low-pressure burners such as the Winkler (an engineering masterpiece if there ever was one) GE and Williams (less so) as well as vaporizing pot-type burners (scary) competed for dominance. The latter type was known for causing chimney fires.

So the Code authorities started requiring a means of cutting power to the burner without going into the boiler room, in case something went sideways. This took the form of a switch at the entrance to the boiler area, meaning you didn't have to comb through a fuse panel to find the one for the burner. However, in a lot of cases (at least around here) the emergency switch was installed at the outside basement door rather than the inside stairway, so if you saw a problem from the top of the steps you had to go down and over to the outside door to flip the switch.

I'm sure the Dead Men would have killed for the clean, efficient flame-retention oil burners of today.

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

STEAM DOCTOR said:

Early oil boilers required cleaning soot off all every 6 weeks.

Those early oil burners were scary as well as inefficient. But back then, 6 weeks was better than 2 weeks.

That, BTW, is why we have burner emergency switches. Back then, the high-pressure oil burner we know today was one of several basic types. Low-pressure burners such as the Winkler (an engineering masterpiece if there ever was one) GE and Williams (less so) as well as vaporizing pot-type burners (scary) competed for dominance. The latter type was known for causing chimney fires.

So the Code authorities started requiring a means of cutting power to the burner without going into the boiler room, in case something went sideways. This took the form of a switch at the entrance to the boiler area, meaning you didn't have to comb through a fuse panel to find the one for the burner. However, in a lot of cases (at least around here) the emergency switch was installed at the outside basement door rather than the inside stairway, so if you saw a problem from the top of the steps you had to go down and over to the outside door to flip the switch.

I'm sure the Dead Men would have killed for the clean, efficient flame-retention oil burners of today.

What efficiency did they typically run when working correctly?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Plumbing and heating has gotten eaisier .........or has it?

Yes we have propress, pex and copper tubing instead of galvanized or black threaded and PVC and ABS with no hub instead of cast iron. We have electric pipe threaders and machines to dig trenches.

But todays workers probably can do a complete install in much less time than the Dead Men due to all the labor saving devices but then they rush to the next job so they work as hard as ever