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R422B vs R22

rsilvers
rsilvers Member Posts: 182
in A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
I know R422B calls for complete extraction of R22 before conversion.

Why is this? What happens when an R22 system is topped off with R422B? Do the chemicals mix and cause a reaction? Does it stop working?

Comments

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    It’s illegal to knowingly mix refrigerants except is certain applications. 

    Once mixed it’s a guess for readings!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,696
    Or another way of putting it is that the two compounds have very different pressure/evaporating point curves, and if you mix them you have no clue as to how -- or if == the system will operate.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    and it happens more than you know!
  • rsilvers
    rsilvers Member Posts: 182
    pecmsg said:

    and it happens more than you know!

    Yes I saw a post from someone who had a contractor that topped off his R22 system with R422B but put R22 on the invoice.
  • rsilvers
    rsilvers Member Posts: 182
    Jamie Hall said:

    Or another way of putting it is that the two compounds have very different pressure/evaporating point curves, and if you mix them you have no clue as to how -- or if == the system will operate.

    Is that true? I looked up charts for both and they were virtually identical.

    https://forane.arkema.com/files/live/sites/shared_arkema/files/downloads/fluorochemicals/forane-22-pressure-temperature-chart.pdf

    https://www.uri.com/INTERSHOP/static/WFS/URI-URIUS-Site/-/URI-URIUS-smb-responsive/en_US/docs/Nat-R422B-SS.pdf


  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    rsilvers said:
    Or another way of putting it is that the two compounds have very different pressure/evaporating point curves, and if you mix them you have no clue as to how -- or if == the system will operate.
    Is that true? I looked up charts for both and they were virtually identical. https://forane.arkema.com/files/live/sites/shared_arkema/files/downloads/fluorochemicals/forane-22-pressure-temperature-chart.pdf https://www.uri.com/INTERSHOP/static/WFS/URI-URIUS-Site/-/URI-URIUS-smb-responsive/en_US/docs/Nat-R422B-SS.pdf
    You’re still mixing refrigerants. 
    Against the law!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,696
    Close only counts in horseshoes and grenades. But the fact that they are very similar does mean that you won't have to change out the compressor or perhaps even the control valve or orifice to make the switch.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • rsilvers
    rsilvers Member Posts: 182
    I am only adding R22. I was trying to find out if there is a technical reason why they can't be mixed or if that is just regulation. Seems like regulation.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    rsilvers said:
    I am only adding R22. I was trying to find out if there is a technical reason why they can't be mixed or if that is just regulation. Seems like regulation.
    And the fact that when recovered it has to be burned?
  • rsilvers
    rsilvers Member Posts: 182
    edited July 2023
    Burning is good because it takes R22 out of circulation where it can leak, although if the tank gets rejected then you won't get paid for it.
    pecmsg
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,777
    Isn't it the chlorine in 22 that's eating the ozone? What happens to it when it goes through the flame? It obviously isn't destroyed, is it compounded into something that doesn't break down? Or do they capture it?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,260
    @rsilvers
    No one on here is actually going to know what happens if you mix them unfortunately.

    They only know what the law is.

    You see some speculation, but no one is going to have the real answer.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,696
    ratio said:

    Isn't it the chlorine in 22 that's eating the ozone? What happens to it when it goes through the flame? It obviously isn't destroyed, is it compounded into something that doesn't break down? Or do they capture it?

    It isn't so much the chlorine as the way it is combined with carbon and fluorine. The resulting molecules act as a catalyst which facilitates the breakdown of ozone, but isn't itself consumed in the process. If you were to burn it at a high enough temperature (I forget the value, but it's very high) the refrigerant breaks down into various chlorine, fluorine, and carbon oxides which don't do that (at intermediate temperatures, some of those are even worse -- not so much for ozone, but for living things...)
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    HVACNUT
  • rsilvers
    rsilvers Member Posts: 182
    edited July 2023
    The EPA loves burning R-22. They love it so much, they pay good money to buy R-22 just to burn it. Also, this money is part of their budget, so they love showing Congress how much R-22 they burn. The more the better. They certainly prefer to burn it than to see people reuse it.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    rsilvers said:

    The EPA loves burning R-22. They love it so much, they pay good money to buy R-22 just to burn it. Also, this money is part of their budget, so they love showing Congress how much R-22 they burn. The more the better. They certainly prefer to burn it than to see people reuse it.

    where did you come up with this?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,260
    pecmsg said:

    rsilvers said:

    The EPA loves burning R-22. They love it so much, they pay good money to buy R-22 just to burn it. Also, this money is part of their budget, so they love showing Congress how much R-22 they burn. The more the better. They certainly prefer to burn it than to see people reuse it.

    where did you come up with this?
    It's the first I'm hearing of it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,282
    edited July 2023
    rsilvers said:
    The EPA loves burning R-22. They love it so much, they pay good money to buy R-22 just to burn it. Also, this money is part of their budget, so they love showing Congress how much R-22 they burn. The more the better. They certainly prefer to burn it than to see people reuse it.
    You got any reliable links to back up that statement? Because that's a doozy.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    edited July 2023
    HVACNUT said:
    rsilvers said:
    The EPA loves burning R-22. They love it so much, they pay good money to buy R-22 just to burn it. Also, this money is part of their budget, so they love showing Congress how much R-22 they burn. The more the better. They certainly prefer to burn it than to see people reuse it.
    You got any reliable links to back up that statement? Because that's a doozy.
    X-2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,260
    Yeah well.
    I hear @Jamie Hall loves burning R290.   He burns tons of it and even cooks animals with it.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    JUGHNEratioGGross
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    I still use NG
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,260
    pecmsg said:
    I still use NG
    Oh so you're over there burning R50!

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,271
    ChrisJ said:
    pecmsg said:
    I still use NG
    Oh so you're over there burning R50!

    They’ll get my 1940 chambers stove right after they get my gun(s). 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,260
    edited July 2023
    pecmsg said:


    ChrisJ said:


    pecmsg said:

    I still use NG

    Oh so you're over there burning R50!



    They’ll get my 1940 chambers stove right after they get my gun(s). 



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • rsilvers
    rsilvers Member Posts: 182
    I wouldn't ask this question today. Since I made this post, I studied for and became Type-1 certified. So now I know why one can't do this.
    PC7060

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