Soldered copper lines between shutoff valve and bathroom faucet: how to do it?

Charlie from wmass

The shank is ground internally to accept a 3/8" tail piece. If you want hard pipe it is used with the faucet nuts.   https://www.webstaurantstore.com/ts-150a-union-coupling-tailpiece/510150A.html

ratio

FIP (& MIP) is just an alias for NPT, there was a hint above: Female Iron Pipe. I think I read @Mad Dog_2 say he chased the NPS threads with a NPT die? That might work.

seized123

Thanks @ratio, now I know why those guys assumed I was talking about NPT when I thought I wasn’t. I’ve been chasing my own tail and they knew it.

@Charlie from wmass that’s interesting.

Mad Dog_2

Now now boys..dont get testy.  I too have numerous licenses....I've done it plenty of times, with not a leak.  Sometimes a faucet shank will NOT receive, the female thread,, so you can't do it!  Move on..Many have worked...no.leaks. made. Kitchen  Sink strainers..some have the thick thread that you  can ONLY get a Slip nut on..Others have a sharper thread that will take Female NPT adapter.  A Washing machine Hose thread will usually screw on to a 3/4" NPT brass brass nipple.  This, "it could void the warranty worry" reminds me of those Tags under the mattress with the FBI warning...DO NOT REMOVE ..under penalty of law..."  This is only used for special situations. 

My go to on lavs & residential KS faucets, is Chrome Plated or RB under a vanity. 3/8" Copper tubing with nut and ferrule..Done .  I did it in a few bars that wanted a sturdier water connection due to the Mischievous drunkards ripping out the flex supplies.  It worked!  The plumber's job is to provide leak free joints, not be in fear of the "pipe thread police." 

 I've made my own copper and brass custom fittings on occasion to get the water on in Skyscrapers.  Silver brazed, don't leak..after 25 yrs.  ASME approved??  Nope...but they  weren't there with me or responsible for restoring water to a multistage building on a Friday night and the shop sent the wrong fittings. There's nothing wrong bending the rules as long as it doesn't leak or pose a safey or health Hazard  to the occupants.  Neither of these situations do.  If you're willing to accept the consequences if there's a problem, its not the end of the world.  Sometimes, ypu really don't want to see how the sausage is made 
Mad Dog  🐕 

Charlie from wmass

I have been called to find leaks by people I assumed were diy who didn't know better using straight on tapered for European style radiators, faucets, and gas piping. Not all licensing is equal, many are just revenue generation or gate keeping to protect local labor. Others require proper training and understanding of the trade and the code. 

Mad Dog_2

Of course, European threads are very different..not even close...anyone trying to dry fit them will see that...I

Mad Dog_2

Harris Silver solder is a life saving in plumbing and heating.  Once in awhile, I'll use the 15% Silver..awesome.   Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

@hot_rod, @Charlie from wmass and @WMno57 now I see why you kept telling me about the downsides of NPT on NPS when I thought I had moved on from that; in actual fact I hadn’t moved on because in reality FIP goes with NPT. A little more digging by me on the internet would’ve shown me that, thanks for your patience.

So if I go with the regular bull nose rather than a more exotic alternative none of your advice has been in vain. Before this I didn’t know an NPT from a FIP from a DIP from an LS/MFT. And even if I don’t use your configurations now @Mad Dog_2, I have them for future reference.

WMno57

@seized123 To delete a duplicate post on HeatingHelp: Use the edit function. Delete all the text, and replace it with the word "delete". @Erin Holohan Haskell will then know to delete the post.

hot_rod

FIP is female iron pipe thread, which is still a tapered pipe thread

MIP would be a male thread adapter, also a tapered pipe thread

where you typically find straight thread fittings are the Euro based websites

I work for an Italian brass manufacturer and we make thousands if transition fittings that we sell in 92 countries, so many, many special adapters

Here us a 1/2” BSP (straight thread) adapter screwed onto a faucet. Notice that I have it screwed onto the faucet about 1”👌By hand.

That transitioned to a 3/4 G thread, the nut you see, which is also a BSP straight thread. A gasket or O ring seals that

Finally you see a 1/2” BSP male straight thread tailpiece

If you look close those male threads are serrated to help keep the hemp in the piece when it is screwed into a female fitting. Its called a hemp thread

You see hemp at plumbing and hardware stores in Europe, I bought some on one if my trips over there. although teflon sealing cord, similar to dental floss, is much easier to apply

Buderus boilers used to arrive in the US with a fist full of hemp. I suspect us was mainly rolled and smoked because not many knew what it was for

WMno57

@seized123 , I'm pretty sure those FIP fittings you posted are threaded with an NPT (Nation Pipe Taper) thread. Almost always in the USA when you see the term MIP or FIP, it is a tapered thread. The terms MIP and FIP are used to indicate male or female and threaded for NPT.
Another example of a straight thread is an oil filter on a car. Both the male and female threads are straight. The idea is to be able smoothly turn the filter until the gasket is compressed. Filter makers tell us to spin the filter until the gasket touches the engine block, then 3/4 turn more to compress the gasket.
Bolts become tight because of the clamping force exerted by the bolt slightly stretching and the items being bolted compressing. This is why torque wrenches are used on cylinder heads. We want all the cylinder head bolts to exert the same amount of force, equally compressing the cylinder head gasket. We want the stretching of the bolt to be below an amount that would cause the bolt to permanently deform.
Some engines have threaded holes that go into the water jacket. Here we use a thread sealant to seal the spiral leak path I discussed earlier.
In plumbing, the nut on a union has straight threads. This is to compress the machined surfaces together. No need to seal these threads, but a little pipe dope on the threads will act as a lubricant and allow easier tightening to the create the proper clamping force on the sealing surface
The nuts on a NPS faucet shank are NPS (National Pipe Straight) to allow us to tighten to the proper clamping force.
I was trying to think of another example of a tapered thread. Not many. Maybe a threaded freewheel on an older ten speed bicycle? Wood screws. That's about it.

MikeAmann

WMno57

Sorry Mike, I know you understand this stuff. There are younger people who never learned this from their fathers or school. Maybe I should make a youtube video.

seized123

I’d subscribe to your Youtube channel.

MikeAmann

You are making something simple into something complicated. Why?

MikeAmann

Here are your risers: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Supply-Risers-638000
If you are unsure of your soldering skills, then sweat one of these onto the pipe: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Elkhart-30318-1-2-x-3-8-Copper-x-Male-Adapter
This way you won't cook the valve by overheating it.
Then screw a straight valve onto the male adapter: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Supply-Stop-Valves-637000
From here you can either use a braided stainless flex line that will directly connect to your faucet, or use the hard pipe.
That's it - simple.

Charlie from wmass

MikeAmann said:

You are making something simple into something complicated. Why?  Because MadDog says braided supplies are junk and faill all the time and that no plumber worth their salt uses them and  doing something simple and effective with better techniques and technology is turning your back on the trade.   

 Sigh guess I need to ride a trolley to work and carry all my materials now our have a carter deliver them now lik me dear Faether did in the old country. 

ChrisJ

Charles and don't forget PVC is bad, Orangeburg is where it's at.

rick in Alaska

If you take a piece of 1/2" copper tube, on most 1/2" fittings I have run in to, you can sweat it on the inside of the faucet shank and eliminate that straight threaded joint. Then you can mount the faucet with the copper pipe stub, in to the sink and not have to try and tighten the adapter up in place. Now the pipe is low enough to get below the bowl so you can do the rest of the makeup.
I always soldered pipes in to washing machine valves when I could only get threaded ends.
Rick

Mad Dog_2

Hey...easy now Jersey Boy..("You from Joisee? I'm from Joisee...." (SNL Joe Piscopo!)  Orangeburg was very popular at one time and provided good jobs for the locals of U guessed it..Orangeburg NY...I ❤ NY....Mad Dog 🐕 

Charlie from wmass

Orangeburg was garbage before it left the factory. 

Mad Dog_2

I have a hilarious story about Orangeburg. 
I was rodding out a yard drain and I Hear a lot of yelling and commotion. I look up in to  the The backyard And the snake punched through the "pipe" and the grass and the HO, a Dentist, is running 🏃‍♂️ away from it .  He almost had a heart attack but I couldn't stop laughing.  I  laughed so hard that I was crying and I  fell over...then he started laughing 😂 at me..It was straight out of Laurel & Hardy.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Hey...easy now Jersey Boy..("You from Joisee? I'm from Joisee...." (SNL Joe Piscopo!)  Orangeburg was very popular at one time and provided good jobs for the locals of U guessed it..Orangeburg NY...I ❤ NY....Mad Dog 🐕 

All of the Charlotte PVC I use is proudly made in Charlotte NC and providing good local jobs.

seized123

@hot_rod thanks for those photos of the faucet and adapter.

Was that a European faucet, whose shanks have BSP threads?

My faucet shank threads are 1/2" IPS American straight thread, which I take to be the same as "NPS". I wanted to, like you, screw on an adapter, in my case to transition to sweat, or even NPT pipe, although that would probably be too many fittings - but I can find NO female 1/2 inch IPS/NPS-to-anything-else adapters, even female NPS to male NPT. Can that be? Are the only things out there that will go onto this 1/2 inch straight thread the nuts on braided lines and the nuts for the solid risers? (There are lots of BSP/Gthread-to-NPT adaptors, but I have learned that technically BPS/Gthread and NPS are not compatible, though they might seem to fit, because of differing thread profiles. So I guess I can't use those?)

Even if I have to end up installing the conventional stuff, In thinking about all this I'm learning a ton about these different standards: threads, pipe diameters (sometimes ID, sometimes OD!) etc.

mattmia2

Mad Dog_2 said:

I have a hilarious story about Orangeburg. 
I was rodding out a yard drain and I Hear a lot of yelling and commotion. I look up in to  the The backyard And the snake punched through the "pipe" and the grass and the HO, a Dentist, is running 🏃‍♂️ away from it .  He almost had a heart attack but I couldn't stop laughing.  I  laughed so hard that I was crying and I  fell over...then he started laughing 😂 at me..It was straight out of Laurel & Hardy.  Mad Dog 🐕 

I suspect that all of the people who knew how to clean orangeburg without destroying it are gone.

seized123

... Oh, and @MikeAmann, that was a great tip back there. If I'm understanding you correctly: for the pipe-to-valve connection, I can first solder the NPT-to-sweat adaptor to the pipe, then screw the pipe into the valve (I assume using teflon tape), which I'd get with NPT inlet as opposed to sweat - no soldering directly to valve. I have seen lots of advice online on how to solder to a valve without burning it up, but never this tip, which seems foolproof for inexperienced solderers like me, and all for the cost of one fitting.

mattmia2

seized123 said:

... Oh, and @MikeAmann, that was a great tip back there. If I'm understanding you correctly: for the pipe-to-valve connection, I can first solder the NPT-to-sweat adaptor to the pipe, then screw the pipe into the valve (I assume using teflon tape), which I'd get with NPT inlet as opposed to sweat - no soldering directly to valve. I have seen lots of advice online on how to solder to a valve without burning it up, but never this tip, which seems foolproof for inexperienced solderers like me, and all for the cost of one fitting.

On the compression type stops you can unscrew the packing nut and take the stem out to keep from melting anything too.

seized123

@mattmia2 that's another good tip, I'm sure they don't mention that in the instructions.

Mad Dog_2

I can't think of  a "good" way  to clean Orangeburg...Snake 🐍 Heads are sharp steel.  Mad Dog 🐕 

hot_rod

Do you have the faucet? Is so buy any female NPT fitting and see how it doesn’t want to screw on. It may go in one thread because of the taper it will stop.

IPS is iron pipe size, basically another way to describe NPT  national  pipe thread

The reason some NPT and BSP or any other straight thread designation sometimes sort of work is the TPI threads per inch is 14 on 1/2 size. The shape of the thread differs also between NPT, IPS and BSP or any other straight pipe designation 

Officially there isn’t 1/2” tube or pipe in Europe, it will all be metric size
Some times they are close enough to interchange


Only if the center bore hole is exactly 5/8” in a faucet stem can you solder copper tube into a valve.  Assuming it is not plastic😉
When you drill out a copper NPT with a 5/8 drill the threads are very thin, its called a urinal adapter

The reason you cannot find that exact adapter is there is no reason to make one😉

The ball end tubes, or a flex tube work perfectly to make that connection

You are trying to push a rope uphill with this project, I feel? To what end?

Mad Dog_2

Sadomasochtic?  Ha ha 😂.  It Could be his first time at the Rodeo.....He's gotta see what he's in for..Mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

Mad Dog_2 said:

I can't think of  a "good" way  to clean Orangeburg...Snake 🐍 Heads are sharp steel.  Mad Dog 🐕 

I think the guy that pulled the 5' long mass of roots out of mine used half a c cutter. He said he thought someone had broken a cable off in there and left it. You have to be careful that you don't use something that scrapes the walls even it it has turned oval. I'm not an expert on this, i just know that Ann Arbor has a lot of ~70 year old orangeburg.

seized123

To what end, you ask: this is the end, and the regular way of doing it is the way I'll go! (Square peg, round hole; pushing a rope uphill; spitting in the wind; I've learned my lesson.) But once again, none of your advice has been wasted, I've learned a lot more along the way from you guys than if I had just done the accepted way from the start, like what 1/2 inch IPS or NPT or BSP or soft tube and hard tube and hemp and sweat x FIP adaptors and so on even are. (Sometimes I find that a person can learn almost as much from why his/her own hare-brained ideas won't work as from why the regular methods do - which is sort of the case here.) For the record, I still liked @Mad Dog_2 's almost all soldered setup a lot, no rubber tubes or gaskets or compression, but because of the straight thread it was not meant to be.

dko

https://www.brasscraft.com/product/12-in-o-d-copper-faucet-riser-3/

description is confusing but it's 1/2" nominal sweat inlet if you don't cut the swaged end. So you can just attach these to 1/2" faucet shanks and do 1/2" copper sweat all you want. also nice since you can replace the faucet without having to cut out anything below.

If interested, not many places have this in stock
online = https://riverbendhome.com/products/brasscraft-cs600-faucet-riser-sc50231-2432
in store = fwwebb

riverbendhome is fwwebb

seized123

@dko, nice! Comes with the nut too which most of them don’t.
I assume that the tube body of the second one is really copper even though the description implies everything is brass … but if it is all brass I can still solder it like copper?

Mad Dog_2

I'm pretty uptight Irish Catholic when it
Comes to "that" subject, but Siggy Freud would have a Field on the shape of that...phallic...ha ha 😂 .I've never seen that type of "speedy"  looks cool.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Absolutely!  Brass is Copper and Zinc.  The higher the % of copper the better qaulity it is  Red Brass is 85% Copper. Yellow brass can be much lower.  Either way, yiu Dan soft-solder it.  Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

“Siggy Freud would have a Field Day …”

That’s why for the safety minded it comes with an optional … oh, never mind.

seized123

Yes, thanks, I thought so since most valves etc are brass.

EdTheHeaterMan

Mad Dog_2 said:

Hey...easy now Jersey Boy..("You from Joisee? I'm from Joisee...." (SNL Joe Piscopo!)  Orangeburg was very popular at one time and provided good jobs for the locals of U guessed it..Orangeburg NY...I ❤ NY....Mad Dog 🐕 

I have found, living my retirement in Charleston SC, that my New JERzee accent is different from @Mad Dog_2 Joisee accent. You see I'm from Cape May county, That is soo far south of the Mason Trenton line (that is the line that separates the north from the south) that we actually have a different language. We enjoy Philly Style Pretzels and Cheesestakes. You northerners have to deal with the Giants and NewYorkers and I think you eat more bagels. Even the Catholics eat more bagels up there.