Soldered copper lines between shutoff valve and bathroom faucet: how to do it?

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Absolutely!  Brass is Copper and Zinc.  The higher the % of copper the better qaulity it is  Red Brass is 85% Copper. Yellow brass can be much lower.  Either way, yiu Dan soft-solder it.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Is that "You can soft solder it" ?

Your opinion on red brass vs yellow brass is incorrect.
For example, 100% copper isn't better than brass, therefore more copper content doesn't mean better.

Yellow brass is mechanically stronger than red brass.
There's a reason most musical instruments use yellow brass and not red.

Red brass does cost more due to higher copper content, but as far as which is better it highly depends on the application in my opinion.

ChrisJ

@seized123

Honestly, with all I see being discussed you're best off using a braided flex line or a pex riser.

It won't leak, it probably won't even be close to failing for decades. If you try to solder to that, or do a hokey NPT/NPS connection your chances of a leak are much higher.

Yes, you can solder to it, but I can guarantee you Mad Dog has far more experience soldering and that matters in this situation. A lot.

Knowing how much heat you need and where you need it, and getting in, and out before you cook the valve is almost all experience and practice. Similar to brazing a TXV in.

I strongly recommend taking what seems like the "easy way out" in this case. You'll be better off.

seized123

@ChrisJ that’s good advice, I see that now.

While we’re on the subject, in the future I may have to replace some corroded valves in the main water line and elsewhere, which, unlike with the faucet supply, I have to solder - unless I use @MikeAmann ’s seemingly excellent hack (for amateurs like me) of using NPT ball valves along with NPT x sweat adaptors, sweating away from the valve and screwing the adapter into the valve. I have soldered valves to copper in the past, and they didn’t seem to leak when closed, probably due more to luck than skill. My question is, once you solder the valve, if it doesn’t leak when closed can you be pretty sure it’s good? (I mean leak through the valve, not leak at the soldered joints.)
I know you have to be very careful.

WMno57

There are some valves you can take apart. Pull the guts out, solder it, then reassemble the valve. I once had an older valve that would not stop leaking. Bought a similar looking valve at big box store, took it apart, and put the new guts in the old valve body. No soldering. It was not a ball valve.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @seized123 , One more benefit of using a copper male adapter and threaded valve is that valves do fail in time. Even when installed correctly, the internal seals do wear out. It's so much easier to simply unscrew a valve and put a new one back... even with a little water in the line, than messing with soldering. Twenty years from now, it might be you who gets to replace that valve.
If a sweat valve doesn't leak after being installed, it means you probably didn't overheat it. Sometimes you can get a clue by operating the ball valve before and after putting it in. If it's looser after installing, good chance the seals got damaged.

Yours, Larry

ChrisJ

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi @seized123 , One more benefit of using a copper male adapter and threaded valve is that valves do fail in time. Even when installed correctly, the internal seals do wear out. It's so much easier to simply unscrew a valve and put a new one back... even with a little water in the line, than messing with soldering. Twenty years from now, it might be you who gets to replace that valve.
If a sweat valve doesn't leak after being installed, it means you probably didn't overheat it. Sometimes you can get a clue by operating the ball valve before and after putting it in. If it's looser after installing, good chance the seals got damaged.

Yours, Larry

You should let it cool down a bit before operating it, of course.

I know you know that, but I'm adding it for others who do not.

mattmia2

For the service I would use NPT valves and NPT adapters so if the valve fails it is easy to replace and if a valve upstream doesn't hold completely you can replace it without needing to go to the next upstream valve or special tools.

seized123

Great stuff. Our water is tough on valves, (though better since we got a neutralizer), so being able to replace them more easily nails it down for me. (Of course, part of me wants to get practice doing it the real plumber way, but it’s not about me, it’s about the pipes! )Taking apart the valve is a great tip too, though, if I ever do have to do it the “real” way.

Oh, and this might actually be a classic stupid question, but just Teflon tape on the NPT side of the copper adapter?

ChrisJ

If you're talking about the incoming line... the main shutoff..
This is the route I went.

One shows everything when I was preparing to install it and then the other less great picture is when it's installed.

It's an Apollo 77FLF1 valve which is a made in USA lead free valve and to connect to the incoming copper line I used a Ford pack joint with male NPT.

After learning about them I have a huge amount of respect for pack joints and similar. I'd also say the Ford products I've used were the best I've seen when it comes to plumbing. The Ford I'm talking about I think is "Ford Meter Box" not the automotive company.

If you buy a Ford coupling or valve, it's the best of the best, period.

I also used a Ford meter setter to keep meter horizontal on a vertical pipe.

seized123

Nice, thanks for photos ChrisJ, also, for the brand recommendation.

I was wondering, why’d you pick pack joints over NPT x sweat adaptors?

Also, am I right in thinking if I install a ball valve in the main line with NPT x sweat adaptors, I’d have to have a union somewhere on the pipe on one side of the valve, or alternatively, instead of one of the adapters put in an NPT x sweat union (see photo below) right at the valve (if I don’t  use pack joints). Otherwise I couldn’t install or remove? (I know, this is basic plumbing stuff.)

Mad Dog_2

Chris...once again...not to argue...rhetorical debate here..  For plumbing and heating applications, Red Brass IS superior.
1) Red Brass lasts much longer than yellow brass when the fluid medium in water. Other fluids? Don't know..Plumbers deal with tap  water usually some glycol mixes.  Yellow Brass gets brittle and will eventually split and crack, especially on domestic hot water piping. It too lasts many years, but NOT as long as Red Brass!  
2) Yellow brass IS harder because of the high zinc content. Harder doesn't  always equate to longevity...not in this case.
3) Red brass IS softer with its lesser zinc content..
4) Not only were we taught this from Day one in our NYC Plumbers Local #2 apprenticeship school by old Licensed Master plumbers that put in miles of screw pipe, but I STILL some Yellow  brass over 100 yrs old..(but most of it was replaced with copper..because it split and leaked)  I see much more Red Brass STILL installed no leaks.  My childhood home in How'beach Queens was built in 1968.  All yellow brass screw pipe for domestic hot and cold water. Grandparents lived right next door.  Two case studies for you. 8 yrs in, my father had several sections that split on the seams.  He replaced with copper.   A few years later, my Grandma 👵 had similar issues.  We sold Granmas House in 1992.  I was a plumber for about 6 yrs by then.. In that 6 yrs, I had to replace lot of yellow brass with  copper.   As a fair comparison, some houses had different contractors and maybe paid more (The Builders did give u upgrade options) but were piped in Red brass. Of those I've seen with my own eyes, recently, much of the original red brass is in and leak free.  If they gutted a bathroom 🚻., they're repiping in copper...faster.  

I don't claim to be a metallurgist, are you one?  In your field, what have you seen to bolster your case??  Different fluids being conveyed?? I don't know a single plumber in the 5 boros or Long Island that would think Yellow Brass is better....  Please 'Spain Lucy...Mad Dog 

hot_rod

Red brass is a copper and tin alloy. 

Brass is generally copper and zinc, but other ingredients also, depending on the specific alloy

There are about 60 different brass alloys available. It really depends  on the application as far as what brass to use. There isn’t one brass that us better than the others

By code, all the plumbing brass is now low lead and DNZ alloy. A % of lead is still in the LL brass.

Low lead brass has more copper along with zinc and bismuth replacing a % of the lead.

Low lead and plumbing yellow brass differ enough that you cannot mix the shavings when you recycle it

Specifying brass is not unlike stainless steel or other alloys, the type and grade depends on what you are using it for

ChrisJ

seized123 said:

Nice, thanks for photos ChrisJ, also, for the brand recommendation.

I was wondering, why’d you pick pack joints over NPT x sweat adaptors?

Also, am I right in thinking if I install a ball valve in the main line with NPT x sweat adaptors, I’d have to have a union somewhere on the pipe on one side of the valve, or alternatively, instead of one of the adapters put in an NPT x sweat union (see photo below) right at the valve (if I don’t  use pack joints). Otherwise I couldn’t install or remove? (I know, this is basic plumbing stuff.)

I used a pack joint for several reasons.

The first was no solder joints are allowed buried apparently (That's my understanding, may be wrong). Second reason is, if the pack joint is good enough to be buried, it's good enough to be in my basement and I didn't want to risk having a leaky sweat joint after the water company turned the water back on.

seized123

Interesting, another thing to look into.

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog_2

Actually, as I stated further up, Red Brass is 85% Copper / 15% Zinc with slight variations and traces of Tin, lead and other elements.  Yellow brass IS weaker atleast conveying water..as in..Plumbing & heating. Above 15% Zinc it is increasingly vulnerable to dezincification, cracking and splitting, as I mentioned above and I've seen  from my field experience.   The NYC plumbing code docs are from a while back, be even back then, they were NOT allowing Yellow Brass (ASTM B 36)  on Pipe for distribution (interior) or service lines (underground).  NYC Plumbing code is probably one of the oldest codes in America 🇺🇸.   It has been the Gold Standard of Plumbing codes in our great nation.  There is a sound  reason ONLY Red Brass is allowed: Yellow Brass is inferior to Red Brass.  The Legendary NYC Plumbing Code "Professor,"  Manny Troise, whom I had the great honor 🎖 of studying under for the last 40 years, schooled us on all these intricacies.  His "Blue Book" (interpretation of NYC) is on every licensed Master plumbers office in NYC and Long Island.  He was also the Chief Plumbing Inspector of the entire City and pulled no punches on what was good..what was junk.  Just wanted to share this with the discussion group on this post.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

@Mad Dog_2. Have you used parts from Ford meter box much?

That USA made Apollo valve i have is nice but it's nothing compared to a Ford curb stop. 

 Everything I got from them was very heavy, well made and even had protectors over the threads etc.

It's amazing the difference between interior plumbing and "water works" plumbing.

hot_rod

Lot of different opinions on brass, Ill check with engineering, but I don’t believe we forge or machine any “red” brass.

 But we don’t make pipe just valves and components for plumbing, HVAC and hydronics. About 400 million parts and assemblies per year, we were one of the first ISO certified companies in Italy, so I think we have brass figured out😗

Dare I mention bronze, many valves used to say quality bronze construction. Is it yellow or red brass with another name?

I suspect we buy the alloy based on what we are making and the ability to forge and get mirror finishes on some parts. I wonder that the terms red or yellow even come up?

Mad Dog_2

Ford is excellent. But,  Chris do you know what a "Ford 🔧 Wrench" is for a"Buffalo Box" ?  Water meter trivia..Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Ford is excellent. But,  Chris do you know what a "Ford 🔧 Wrench" is for a"Buffalo Box" ?  Water meter trivia..Mad Dog 🐕 

No idea.
The only Ford wrench I know of looks like a monkey wrench or the Ridgid spud wrench I have


No idea what a buffalo box is.  I know what a curb box is..... And curb keys.

Mad Dog_2

We had a Place in Garden City Park (Long 🏝  Island) called Pollard.  They were in business since the late 1800s when water services and mains were going in.  All the water districts purchased there and the water main contractors.  I've done a decent amount of that work, so I used to be in there alot for 🐃 Buffalo Boxes, Ford Meter Pits, Z- Setters, The Ford Vault key to open the meter vault (5 sided).  They had great tools like Duck Bill's for cleaning out dirt from Curb boxes...I think Ferguson bought them out...ugggh...I like my Mom and Pop stores.   Mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

In theory brass is copper primarily alloyed with zinc and bronze is copper primarily alloyed with tin.