Soldered copper lines between shutoff valve and bathroom faucet: how to do it?

seized123

On a recently closed thread there was a debate about braided lines vs copper lines to faucets. I'm not trying to resuscitate that thread, for after reading it I personally decided I'd prefer copper lines between my shutoff valves and faucets, and to add to the problem I've decided I don't like compression fittings either, which would mean sweating at the inlet and outlet of the shutoff valves, and somehow connecting the copper tube to the 1/2 inch I.P.S. faucet nipples. Does anybody actually do this, and if so, how?

In that last thread indeed it was suggested I could get a sweat x sweat ball valve as the shutoff and use a 1/2 to 3/8 reducer at the outlet, which sounds reasonable. So far I have found zero sweat x sweat shutoff valves that aren't ugly ball valves (which is not a problem for my application as the lines are inside a bathroom vanity); but that makes me think everyone uses compression fittings at the valve and sweating just isn't done, especially in applications where the valve would be visible. True?

I would still have to connect the riser to the faucet. Below is a picture from the manual. They say either use what appears to be braided line OR a "ball nose riser" (3/8 inch O.D.), which raises the question what the heck is a ball nose riser? (I see Home Depot has them, although everybody besides Delta seems to call them BULL nose risers.) Are those reliable, should I use them? Also, looks like I'll need to get some kind of nut to attach it to the I.P.S. threads? Delta doesn't seem to have those nuts available as parts.

In that previous thread somebody, I think it was @Mad Dog_2, advocated firmly for soldered copper lines to faucets, but exactly how would you do it faced with my typical setup (1/2 inch hard lines out of the floor, 1/2 inch I.P.S. nipples at the faucet)? Compression fitting at the valve outlet, or sweat? "Bull" or "ball" nose fitting at the I.P.S., or find some I.P.S.-to-sweat adaptor and solder? Soldered copper lines to the faucet sounded great, but now it's looking not so simple.

seized123

Mad Dog_2

If it is exposed, you can still get 1/2" x 1/2" right angle and straight IPS Chrome plated stops.  If its under the vanity, a C x C ball valve or IPS ball valve can be used and you do it in IPS  nipples or solder 1/2" Female adapters straight to the Shank.  If you don't have vertical play, use a C x C union or brass union.  Mad Dog 

mattmia2

you could adapt the ips to flare and flare the copper riser. if you make a good flare it doesn't have the problems with the compression sleeve not biting in to very thin copper, the flare nut tends to pull it tighter. problems with compression fittings tend to be from very thin copper tubing and compression ferrules that have hardened sitting over time before use. you can heat them with a torch to anneal them if they are old.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Use the ball nose copper risers with the nut to connect to the valve. They have been used for years with no issues.

The other end of the riser you connect to a stop valve with 3/8 compression connector and the other end of the ball valve is sweat.

This is better than flex hoses as discussed in the other thread.

If you don't like the compression connector (there is no reason not to use them they are trouble free) you could use a sweat stop valve sweat on both ends with a 1/2" nominal copper x 3/8 OB sweat coupling and sweat that end of the riser

Personally, I would use copper riser with a sweat x compression stop valve.

mattmia2

Still haven't found anyone that can explain how that ball nose fitting came to be or what exactly it is called or why a ballcock uses a different version.

hot_rod

You can still buy copper  lav supply tubes if you really want to solder everything. A sweat ball valve with a 1/2 x 3/8 copper sweat reducing coupling.

But you still have a mechanical joint, the ball end of the supply tube at the faucet. Which is not unlike a compression ferrule in the way it seals into the faucet

And the stem packing on the ball valve could drip someday😉

Charlie from wmass

Faucet shanks are straight threads.  They are engineered for use with a straight thread nut as in the flex supply or faucet nut and ball end supply. Any advice to use a npt adapter on an nps fitting is ill advised. Like when people match up npt to radiator union valves. The ball end was invented to replace the packing joint that was once common place where a bald pipe was put into the faucet shank and sealed with a large amount of wicking pressed in by a brass washer under the faucet nut. A similar set up was used on water closets. This also can be accomplished by using the central part of the washer supplied with a fluid master toilet fill.

Mad Dog_2

We use solid 1/2" Copper Hard Temper Tubing "hard piped" to T & S Brass Commercial Kitchen faucets all the time...usually install a Sweat Union too.  You're not going to get a better connection I never heard the top called a Ball Nose 👃 but it makes sense.  Faucet shanks will usually accommodate a 1/2" NPT female fitting, but NOT ALWAYS   You'd better dry fir it BEFORE you try to install it!.  Flare IS an option, but I agree with some others that a A good brass compression joints not going to pull apart or blow out...ever.  I've used them up to 3/4" when there was no way to get a positive shutdown and you couldn't solder.  I see one from 1987 I installed as an apprentice once a year during The Boiler Service...Mad Dog 🐕 

seized123

These comments are tremendously helpful. I'm sure I'll be able to decide on an option, probably taking a bit from all of them.

But first a few questions on things I'm not quite clear on:

Mad Dog_2 said:

If its under the vanity, a C x C ball valve or IPS ball valve can be used and you do it in IPS  nipples or solder 1/2" Female adapters straight to the Shank. 

Firstly, is C x C the same as sweat x sweat?

Next, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "you do it in IPS nipples." Do you mean just screw an IPS ball valve to the nipple (I'm assuming the faucet "nipples" are the same thing as faucet "shanks"?). Should the other end of the IPS ball valve then be sweat?

I'm also not clear on "or solder 1/2" Female adapters straight to the shank". That sounds good and solid, but what kind of adapters do you mean? Do you mean to use an adapter that is female IPS threaded on one side, and female 3/8 or 1/2 sweat on the other, and then you screw the adaptor on the shank and solder the riser into the female sweat side? But you say to "solder the adapter straight to the shank", but that shank is threaded (assuming again that "shank" means the two threaded tubes that come out of the faucet). Do you mean I can solder a threaded fitting? Can you even do that? (If so, I'm willing.)

(Please be patient with me here, I'm just asking you to translate from experienced plumber language into DIY Idiotese.)

Related to the above:

Mad Dog_2 said:

We use solid 1/2" Copper Hard Temper Tubing "hard piped" to T & S Brass Commercial Kitchen faucets all the time...usually install a Sweat Union too.&nbsp

Again, when you "hard pipe" to the faucet, how do you make the connection at the faucet?

Also, it looks like you're using hard pipe, but wouldn't I have to use soft because it's not a straight line from the supply lines out of the floor to where the faucet shanks are, so I'd have to bend it? Plus, wouldn't it be better to have a loop or some play in soft pipe to allow for being banged and/or for thermal expansion?

Thanks in advance for any clarification. And the sweat union strikes me as a GREAT idea, for any future disconnections.

ethicalpaul

It wasn't a debate about copper vs braid (I have no idea which is better). It was pointing out that if braided is very unsafe and not to be trusted in anyone's home, then why does every fixture manufacturer use it. This is my only and last post on this thread, thank you!

hot_rod

I’m not sure of your goal here? A completely
thread free connection?
Soldering under a vanity is not an easy task, especially without experience
If the solder joint is close to the wall or floor, be sure to watch for any fire hazard. All thecwater needs to be out of copoer tube to solder properly also.

The connection stems under a faucet are always a straight thread as the connection 
nut needs to be able to go up the threaded tube. Think of it as a bolt and nut

So any kind of pipe thread (not) adapter there is  a work a round and a leak potential

If you have 1/2” copper tube under the vanity a compression by compression stop is what you should consider. Either straight or angle versions will work fine. Thats why they are so common.

Mad Dog_2

Couldn't help yourself huh Paul? Hadda get your dig in. Erin closed that HOT 🔥 discussion...The man said he LIKES the idea of a non-flex connection.  He wanted to know material wise how to do it.  Standby pal..Ill send out some pics .Mad Dog 

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog_2

Take your pick...Solder or I.P.S. (Iron Pipe Size) brass nipples.  I'd even rather see Copper press fittings than a SS Flex. Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

@Mad Dog_2 you've never had an issue making an NPT joint with an NPS male?

mattmia2

You could also find what size copper fits inside the shanks of the faucet and sweat it inside the shanks but you'd have to be very careful to not melt anything in a modern faucet.

BTW, the shanks on a wall faucet are tapered(or female npt and connected with a nipple) because it is designed to be supported by the supply plumbing.

hot_rod

The faucet will need to be mounted on the sink or counter first, when you thread it together like that

Hopefully the supply pipes are 4” on center and parallel 😉

seized123

@Mad Dog_2: astounding! I am printing out those pictures and framing them. Those setups are just what I was looking for: rock solid, sculptural even, and able to withstand, as Shakespeare said, "the slings and arrows of weird plumbing stuff happening." If I'm actually able to do this in the bathroom I'm doing this at all my sinks.

Since no good deed goes unpunished, I have to follow up with a few specific questions. Let's assume I'm going with the soldered version:

Firstly, I assume that copper adaptor at the faucet stem is what I see online as a copper 1/2 inch FIP x (1/2 inch?) sweat adaptor. (The stems on my faucet definitely do not look tapered, hence I assume I'll need the FIP.) But what seals it? Is there a washer in there? Teflon tape and/or pipe dope wouldn't be enough to seal it, right? Or would it?

The other thing is exactly the problem that @hot_rod mentioned: the faucet stems on the new sink will not line up exactly vertically over the hard supply lines out of the floor, so some kind of fudging will have to happen. Can I somehow do the configuration you show using soft copper tubing so I can bend it - either soft copper on the whole thing or on just one leg? For the record, I'll have about 17" of vertical rise to work with.

If I can, that raises a whole other set of problems (for inexperienced me), involving the annoying fact that hard copper is nominally sized by inner diameter, soft by outer, and I assume all these fittings we're talking about are nominally sized for hard pipe. But I notice on my chart that the OUTER diameter of nominal 3/8 inch HARD pipe is 0.500 inches, so doesn't that mean 1/2 inch SOFT tubing (which has a 1/2 inch OUTER diameter, just like 3/8 inch hard pipe) should be solderable into the female cups of nominal 3/8 inch fittings? Is that what you guys do when using fittings with soft tubing, use 1/2 inch soft tubing but nominal 3/8 inch fittings? If so I'm good, I can follow @Mad Dog_2's configuration exactly, since after a quick check I see that 3/8 inch sweat x sweat ball valves and unions and even FIP x sweat adapters exist, I'd just squeeze the 1/2 inch soft tube in there and solder.

After this I'm going to take up rocket science, because it must be easier than plumbing.

ChrisJ

So you don't like a compression joint which are successfully used all over for decades and are proven.

But you're ok with making an improper NPT joint using an NPS male?  Something you're technically not supposed to do?

Mad Dog_2

You like to do it the hard way..ha ha..But that's me too.  As I said earlier, Chris, you have to run a female thread over them to make sure  they make up.  I'd say 85% of 4" Center set faucets like that will work..some won't.  I never went out of my way to VOID warrantys, but when its 1am in the morning and the Rainbow Room (worked there) cools need their water Rimini by 430am, you do what you gotta do. 

 Silver brazing rod got me out of many jams..  made my own fittings..ASME approved??  Nope..but I got them online again and never got a call back....This happened with boilers too...If you want to get paid,, and everyone has left for the weekend...Ill take ownership of it...whats my choice?   It all comes down to the installer and getting it working "safe" and getting paid.

The only time, I've really done hard pipe like this is NYC commercial kitchens and S.C.A. (School Construction Authority) jobs.  They require it.  Chrome plated Brass and fittings all hard piped...no wrench marks either!  Spent a 3 Day Memorial Day weekend connecting all the Chrome waters and wastes.  2" Chrome Plated Brass Traps, 2" Threaded Chrome pipe.  Worked like 3 14 hours days to connect like 14 Commercial Kitchen fixtures..Huge Soup Kettles on a Crank handle, Potato peelers, crazy stuff.  Remember..no wrench marks or marring the Chrome finish....I have a bag of tricks from the Deadmen on doing perfect finish.

If I were you and you want a challenge and a job that will outlive the next 4 faucets, do it in brass I.P.S.  Use thin wick, clockwise, 3 times in each groove,  Megalock or good Teflon paste. Hold back with a small pipe wrench.  Opposing directions and counterforce.  No torch.  Mad Dog 🐕 

realliveplumber

Talk about making a big project out of a simple task lol.

Mad Dog_2

Yes, but he wants the experience of a plumber 100 years ago.  Reenactment is very popular..why not for Plumbing and heating.  The Old School Union plumbers even in the 1980s wore  Osh Kosh overalls, a Steamfitters cap (backwards) and a 6 foot Lufkin Stick rule. If you had an 8 footer they gave you major S---!  Tape measure?   That gets taken from you and winged across the Deck or off the building.  I cheated and had a 8 foot.. Still do...precision.  Mad Dog 

Mad Dog_2

In 1985, we were still using 3/8" Chrome brass Gooseneck offsets..they were cute.  Mad Dog  🐕 

hot_rod

you are getting pretty deep into the weeds with this project 17" does not give you a lot of distance to make up this assembly with mis-alignment thrown in.

5/8" OD soft copper coil really likes to have a flare fitting as it tends to be egg shaped from being coiled. Fuel piping, refrigeration typically use flare or brazed joints for the best result.

At a plumbing supply it will be called 1/2" soft copper. Type M, L, or K the thickest wall. Type M kinks very easily when you hand bend it.

At HVAC stores it is called by the OD, 5/8", typically ACR tube with is a different wall thickness also.

I think the lav faucet shank treads are pretty standardized as those stainless flex lines come with one nut for faucets, one nut for toilets. Although there are some special sized ones also.

That faucet shank may only allow a pipe thread to go on one or two turns, not a very safe or professional connection. All the sealing is dependent on a small amount of teflon jamming the short makeup.

Straight threads are the go to connection in most of the world. Hemp or Loctite 88 thread is used to make the seal. But both threads, male and female are built to allow more threads to engage. On this cheap-o plastic lav set, I only get 1 thread to catch inside a tapered pipe fitting. I doubt a brass thread faucet will be much different OD and thread pitch?

If a bullet-proof connection is what you are after, that fitting hack doesn't fit the definition.

realliveplumber

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Brasscraft-1-20A-C-20-Faucet-Riser-3-8-O-D-1-piece-w-insert-Chrome-Plated?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=Shopping_tm&utm_campaign=Shopping_TM_New_users&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIv_r4nO_u_wIVWvjICh3z2QUIEAQYBCABEgJUKvD_BwE

A nut and ferrule on the valve and it will literally last forever

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't think you can buy "M" soft copper at least i have never seen it

Charlie from wmass

And then some poor guy has to change this because the faucet is corroded out. And an hour project becomes galf a day chasing parts and swearing under a sink. Pizza cutter way of working. 

seized123

Hi @Charlie from wmass, just so I know, what method were you referring to regarding the corrosion, was it the bullnose riser, nut and ferrule recommended by @realliveplumber, or one of the other ones?

Mad Dog_2

Thats what the Unions are for Charlie!   Ridgid Basin Wrench 🔧 8-10 minutes at worst to get apart?  Use Teflon tape and dope...even easier to come apart.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Charlie from wmass

I am referring to the idiotic idea of using npt on nps and the actual body of the faucet corroding. But don't listen to a Massachusetts master plumber of 25 years and journeyman of 31 years and second generation son of a plumber. I obviously am not well versed in plumbing. Smh 

seized123

@hot_rod thanks for the clear description of soft vs hard pipe sizing, and everyone else for their comments. And @Charlie from wmass yes, now I see what you're saying, and speaking of that subject:

There has been some discussion about @Mad Dog_2 's use of an NPT fitting onto the 1/2 inch NPS (aka IPS) faucet stem, which I get, and which is clearly the situation in his second photo above, the threaded version. But I have a question about the first photo, the soldered configuration, and in particular about the copper adapter which in that version goes onto the stem. Do I correctly assume that is a FIP (Female Iron Pipe which I take to be the same as a female IPS/NPS fitting) x sweat adapter, as pictured below (after this post)?

If so, then wouldn't such an adapter (whether FIP x sweat or FIP x flare or whatever) go on smoothly over many threads, and for such an NPS onto NPS situation wouldn't it be entirely legitimate to seal it with wicking and whatever goop you guys recommend, old school style, as mentioned by @hot_rod and @Mad Dog_2? Then there would be no problem as with NPT onto NPS, and this would be a tried-and-true sealing method, used perhaps in most of the rest of the world, as @hot_rod mentioned? (Prior to this post I was confused thinking the NPT/NPS argument applied to both photos, but am I correct in seeing now it only applied to the second?) Below is the FIP x sweat adapter, and after that I another which is FIP x flare, which I could use if I wanted to flare instead of solder. Can I use one of these on the stems with hemp wicking along with whatever dope or goop you recommend?

seized123

seized123

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with @Charlie from wmass . Putting a pipe fitting on a straight threaded faucet shank is not the way i would go. Attach to the faucet with the nut and riser plastic or copper or a flex hose is the right way

seized123

@EBEBRATT-Ed I definitely see what you're saying, and after all this who knows, I might end up going to the bull nose riser and nut. (But if I do go that way, all this discussion was still worth it to me because I learn something fundamental about plumbing from you guys' every post, even when you disagree.)

But let me clarify my previous question: When you say "putting a pipe fitting on a straight threaded faucet shank is not the way i would go" I assume here you mean TAPERED pipe fitting on the straight shank, which I get is a valid point (although @Mad Dog_2 says it has worked for him). But my last question was about using a STRAIGHT-threaded pipe fitting (which I assume the FIP x sweat and FIP x flare fittings in the screenshots above are) on the straight-threaded stem. The way I see it those should go onto the straight stem smoothly as they are supposed to. And then can they not be sealed old-school style with wicking and some goop-of-choice? I realize maybe nobody in the U.S. except maybe @Mad Dog_2 actually does this nowadays because of the ease and availability of the other stuff, but @hot_rod hinted it's very common abroad. If it's an effective method, which is my question to you guys, even if it's more labor intensive I'm willing to try.

WMno57

seized123 said:

If so, then wouldn't such an adapter (whether FIP x sweat or FIP x flare or whatever) go on smoothly over many threads, and for such an NPS onto NPS situation wouldn't it be entirely legitimate to seal it with wicking and whatever goop you guys recommend, old school style

Then there would be no problem with NPT onto NPS, and this would be a tried-and-true sealing method, used perhaps in most of the rest of the world

Can I use one of these on the stems with hemp wicking along with whatever dope or goop you recommend?

No, No, and No.
Taper threads vs Straight threads.
It all has to do with where the seal is made.
An example of Straight threads is a garden hose. The seal is not made at the threads. The seal is made by the gasket inside the female fitting. Both the male and female fittings have straight threads. There is no seal without the gasket.
An example of Taper threads would be a male threaded black steel pipe and female threaded black steel fitting (elbow, tee, etc) as used in natural gas lines. The taper is one inch per 16 inches (3/4 of an inch per foot). Both the male and female sides have this taper. As they are screwed together, when the internal and and external cones join, there is an interference fit, over multiple threads.
Even though taper threads have an interference fit over multiple threads, there may still be a small circular spiral leak path between the thread crest on one fitting, and thread valley on the other. The reason has to do with how threads are cut. It is very hard to cut perfect crests when cutting threads. Pipe dope and thread deformation are able to seal a small spiral path when the interface is across multiple threads.
Joining a straight thread to a taper thread will not connect across multiple threads. This joint will only meet at one thread. So not as strong mechanically, and much shorter spiral leak path.
British pipe threads come in both straight and taper. Like us, they only join straight to straight with a gasket, and taper to taper.
Wicking was originally used to seal a taper to taper joint when the threads were worn out or damaged. Today it is additionally used to seal poorly cut threads made by worn out tooling in third world countries.

hot_rod

There is no correct way to put a NPT (national pipe thread) fitting onto those faucet stems, period.

Not with teflon tape, not with hemp, not with pipe dope, not with Loctite. The threads are just too mismatched

When you correctly assemble straight thread fittings the male and female ends are built to work together. Same diameter, same thread pitch, etc

Hack is the only way to describe forcing mismatched fittings together😉

Would you purposely put a fine thread nut on a coarse thread bolt?

If this were an emergency life threatening repair, certainly some plumbers would force the issue to get out of a bind. That doesn’t seem to be your situation ?

seized123

@WMno57 that was a very clear and detailed explanation, thanks, and thanks @hot_rod, but actually I've been convinced about the taper to straight problem since several posts now ago (maybe I didn't make that clear enough). Let me clarify: I am not even thinking of using an NPT fitting on the straight faucet stem. It may have worked for @Mad Dog_2 but he is a pro and I am not and has earned the right to do things unconventionally, and I buy your argument about only one thread catching, etc. Thus I am only considering a straight fitting, if I can find one, on the straight stem. I assure you, there will be no NPT within ten miles of my bathroom for this project, so you can stop trying to convince me of what you already convinced me of!

My most recent question was more about attaching a straight fitting to the straight stem, NPS to NPS, using wicking. WMno57 you seem to indicate this is just not done, but hot rod seems to think otherwise, saying: "Straight threads are the go to connection in most of the world. Hemp or Loctite 88 thread is used to make the seal."

So what I'm thinking of trying is: Buy either of the above pictured FIP (NON-NPT) adapters if they are indeed for straight pipe. If they thread onto the stem okay, then seal them with hemp and whatever goop you recommend. hot_rod seems to say it will work fine, WMno57 says it's just not done. But if it leaks, it will be a learning experience and I'll just take it off and throw on the bull nose riser. Anyway, after attaching the adapter I'll either solder or flare soft copper tubing to it depending which adapter I decide to get, solder or flare, then solder (or flare) the other end of the tubing to the ball valve, possibly first adding a union in the middle if that's feasible with soft tubing. I could do the first part of all this with the new sink off, attaching the faucet to the sink then attaching the adapter and the top of the tubing, then lowering the sink onto the vanity, because all that wicking would be hard if not impossible to do inside the tiny vanity.

I fully understand that I could just use the bull nose riser with nut and a compression fitting on the valve outlet and it would take a few minutes and that's what most people do and odds are it will last. But this way seems more old-timey leak proof to me and will be fun to try. (Again, don't worry, I'm not even thinking of using NPT fittings. )

seized123

@WMno57 that was a very clear and detailed explanation, thanks. Actually I've been convinced about the taper to straight problem since several posts now ago (maybe I didn't make that clear enough). And @hot_rod, thank you, but let me clarify again: I am not even thinking of using an NPT fitting on the straight faucet stem. It may have worked for @Mad Dog_2 but he is a pro and I am not and has earned the right to do things unconventionally, and I buy your argument about only one thread catching, etc. Thus I am only considering a straight fitting, if I can find one, on the straight stem. I assure you, there will be no NPT within ten miles of my bathroom for this project, please stop trying to convince me of what you already convinced me of!

So my most recent question was more about attaching a straight fitting to the straight stem, NPS to NPS, using wicking. WMno57 you seem to indicate this is just not done, but hot rod seems to think otherwise, saying: "Straight threads are the go to connection in most of the world. Hemp or Loctite 88 thread is used to make the seal."

So what I'm thinking of trying is: Buy either of the above FIP (NON-NPT) adapters if they are indeed for straight pipe. If they thread onto the stem okay, then seal them with hemp and whatever goop you recommend. hot_rod seems to say it will work fine, WMno57 says it's just not done. But if it leaks it will be a learning experience and I'll just take it off and throw on the bull nose riser. Anyway, after attaching the adapter I'll either solder or flare soft copper tubing to the adapter, then solder (or flare) the other end of the tubing to the ball valve, possibly first adding a union in the middle if that's feasible with soft tubing. I could do the first part of all this with the new sink off, attaching the faucet to the sink then attaching the adapter and the top of the tubing, then lowering the sink onto the vanity, because all that wicking would be hard if not impossible inside the tiny vanity.

I fully understand that I could just use the bull nose riser with nut and a compression fitting on the valve outlet and it would take a few minutes and that's what most people do and odds are it will last. But this way seems more old-timey leak proof to me and will be fun to try. (Again, don't worry, I'm not even thinking of using NPT fittings. )

seized123

Don’t know how I duplicated that post. On my phone “Edit” won’t let me delete it, I will keep trying.